Date   
Re: Bus Wiring....

Kurt Konrath
 

If you want red/black zip cord in most normal sizes look at the wire and cables section of PowerWerx web site.    Reasonable costs and they have sizes from 10 - 24 I think 

Kurt K


On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:39 AM, 'Vollrath, Don' dvollrath@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

You should have no problems with your 4 x 8 layout by putting the command station & booster at one end. For a 5 amp system you could wire up the DCC busses using 18 ga zip cord or 16 ga speaker wire. You can still find 18 ga red & white twisted “bell’ wire in some stores. Splitting up the layout into 4 power district blocks with disconnect switches is a noble idea, but somewhat overkill. However, at a later time you may want to replace or supplement the disconnect switches with electronic circuit breakers to help protect your fragile N scale equipment.

DonV  

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:18 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Bus Wiring....

 



I am in the planning stages of a N Scale layout. I am using a 4'x8' layout.... According to my layout program I have a total of a bit over 90' of track... I have it broken into 4 different blocks. My question is since I really want to locate my complete controls at one end of the layout and not the center.... can I just use a lager size bus wire to address any issues with length? I plan on using a Digitrax SEBX Super Empire Builder Xtra with 5 Amps..... I would be running all of my Bus wires to a switch box that has DPST Switches that will allow me to isolate each Block. I plan on installing either Circuit Breakers or use the 1156 bulb option for each block. I have rambled enough and for this I apologize... Any and all help or pointers will be greatly appreciated.

 




Re: Bus Wiring....

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

For a 4 x 8 N scale layout 14 ga is overkill. Stripping out romex then twisting is a lot of fiddly work. If you test for wiring mistake shorts as you go your biggest issue when running will be operator error or derailments. These are kind of obvious… especially on a 4 x 8 layout. Block circuit breakers or manual disconnect switches (if you are fast enough) will help protect equipment.

DonV  

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:27 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Bus Wiring....

 



Thanks Don... I know it is over kill ( I already had the dpst switches) but it is also cheap insurance and I kind of think that it makes for easy trouble shooting allowing me to isolate a block.... as stated I think that I will spring for the circuit breakers... I was planning on using 14 gauge Romex (I tend to prefer solid wire... especially when it will be permanent fixture) stripping the White and Black wires out of the jacket and twisting them... the romex is much cheaper than just buying White and Black THHN Solid 14 gauge wire. I have already purchased the Bell Wire as you mentioned for my Feeders. So I guess now the fun begins.... 

Thanks Again,  Ace




Re: Bus Wiring....

wirefordcc
 

I thought this discussion on N scale track buses would be a good time to remind readers that the key to knowing if your wiring is adequate, is the quarter test.  If your wiring passes the quarter test, you are good to go.  This test will ensure that your booster will safely shutdown rather than melt down your locomotive.  Real Alcos should smoke, model ones shouldn’t! J  For more on the quarter test, see my website at:  http://www.WiringForDCC.com/track.htm#a16

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring For DCC

[NCE-DCC] Club NCE Wiring Manual & Standards

Mark Gurries
 

Jim is cross posting.  So I will crosspost my reply.

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [NCE-DCC]" <NCE-DCC@...>
Subject: Re: [NCE-DCC] Club NCE Wiring Manual & Standards
Date: January 15, 2015 at 3:09:00 PM PST
To: $NCE <NCE-DCC@...>
Reply-To: NCE-DCC@...

Start here

Following sets the MINIMUM standard for the wiring.  It simply say the wiring  is good enough for the booster to properly shutdown when there is a short circuit. 


In terms of working with long wire runs and DCC, here is what you need to know 



On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:08 AM, yxsops@... [NCE-DCC] <NCE-DCC@...> wrote:

Hello,

Our club has a permanent mature layout that is being operated successfully with the NCE Power Cab system.  Unfortunately, there is absolutely no documentation nor standard that has been followed in wiring the layout by previous member.  Currently the layout runs well, but should something happen, we wouldn't know where to go to start to troubleshoot.  We want to change that.  I am wondering if other clubs or members have established their own manuals or standards as it applies to wiring and would be willing to share their ideas.

 

Jim


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Bus Wiring....

asychis@...
 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels

Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

jazzmanlj
 

Hello all,

Rather than respond or ask on the previous posts as it mainly was pertinent to small scale I thought it better to start new!

My garden layout will be ~ 100' X 150' and so far I have close to 1000' of track. The boosters will be 10A @ ~22V, each being fed by a separate SMPS. Large scale locomotives are rather tolerant to voltage drop as well as having efficient motors. Under normal operating conditions I don't see the boosters putting out more than 5A.

I've done some calculations based on #14 bus wires worst case and it seems feasible for each booster to be centered in about 200' of track.

I'm hoping to finally start laying track this spring here in western MA. Any thought or comments would be appreciated.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

Mark Gurries
 

So your not concerned about wire inductance and the destructive voltage spike they create with that long of a track bus run?  I can point you to a layout in O scale that has been suffering that exact same problem big time.


On Jan 17, 2015, at 6:36 AM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Rather than respond or ask on the previous posts as it mainly was pertinent to small scale I thought it better to start new!

My garden layout will be ~ 100' X 150' and so far I have close to 1000' of track. The boosters will be 10A @ ~22V, each being fed by a separate SMPS. Large scale locomotives are rather tolerant to voltage drop as well as having efficient motors. Under normal operating conditions I don't see the boosters putting out more than 5A.

I've done some calculations based on #14 bus wires worst case and it seems feasible for each booster to be centered in about 200' of track.

I'm hoping to finally start laying track this spring here in western MA. Any thought or comments would be appreciated.

Len Jaskiewicz


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

jazzmanlj
 

Mark,

Inductance is a concern and voltage spikes are not to be tolerated! You might have missed my name in all the many 'snubber' posts in the past. Calculating voltage drops is straightforward. Calculating inductance and the voltage spikes would take extensive math, well beyond my skills in engineering! Transmission lines in power is a highly specialized realm. For simplicity I will take true measurements with an O-scope to verify the integrity of the track voltage!

I still stand firmly as to the terminology of 'Snubber'  vs. RC filter! A snubber is used to supress voltage spikes and designed for the particular operating frequency. Especially in a power realm! A RC filter can be both pass or bypass and designed for specific frequencies.

Regards,

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

Mark Gurries
 

No I did not miss your name at all.  That fact you left the topic out was the flag.

People may not remember your comments from before as in make a connection between past discussions and this one.  New members definitely will not.



On Jan 17, 2015, at 12:48 PM, len.jask@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

Inductance is a concern and voltage spikes are not to be tolerated! You might have missed my name in all the many 'snubber' posts in the past. Calculating voltage drops is straightforward. Calculating inductance and the voltage spikes would take extensive math, well beyond my skills in engineering! Transmission lines in power is a highly specialized realm. For simplicity I will take true measurements with an O-scope to verify the integrity of the track voltage!

I still stand firmly as to the terminology of 'Snubber'  vs. RC filter! A snubber is used to supress voltage spikes and designed for the particular operating frequency. Especially in a power realm! A RC filter can be both pass or bypass and designed for specific frequencies.

Regards,

Len Jaskiewicz


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

jazzmanlj
 

Hi Mark,

This will be my approach but I need a better scope to trigger on the pulses.

Take segments of wire at some pre-determined length attached to a test track with a running locomotive. Compare the booster output signal to the test track signal for degradation. Add a RC network if needed. Apply a short across the track and verify shutdown and recovery.

 Add another section of wire and repeat the test and keep repeating to see how far I can really extend the wiring.

If I just follow the 30' recommendation it would take lots of boosters. In the actual layout wiring I don't want it underrated but also trying to avoid an overkill and excessive wiring. Naturally testing will be done on the actual layout. 1000'+ of track on near 3/4 acre is a lot of outdoor wiring.

Thought and comments greatly appreciated.

Regards to all,

Len Jaskiewicz



Re: Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

Max Maginness
 

Len

 

I’m sure you have thought about this, but how will you maintain track and wheel conditions for reliable electrical contact  in an  outside environment

 

Max

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2015 5:27 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Bus wiring/large scale with 10A boosters

 

 

Hi Mark,

This will be my approach but I need a better scope to trigger on the pulses.

Take segments of wire at some pre-determined length attached to a test track with a running locomotive. Compare the booster output signal to the test track signal for degradation. Add a RC network if needed. Apply a short across the track and verify shutdown and recovery.

 Add another section of wire and repeat the test and keep repeating to see how far I can really extend the wiring.

If I just follow the 30' recommendation it would take lots of boosters. In the actual layout wiring I don't want it underrated but also trying to avoid an overkill and excessive wiring. Naturally testing will be done on the actual layout. 1000'+ of track on near 3/4 acre is a lot of outdoor wiring.

Thought and comments greatly appreciated.

Regards to all,

Len Jaskiewicz

 

 


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Re: Bus Wiring....

Brian Eiland
 

I wish it was as simple to make a copy of this discussion!!! Maybe its just my stupidity and lack of understanding this 'computer world, but when I 'copied' this section and tried to place it in a text document I could print, the margins are all off such that the text does not fit on a page correctly.

I wanted to print this out so I could have a copy in front of me all the time!

Sorry for my rant at these 'computer/software' compatibilities?
Brian

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:35 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels


Re: headlight in DCC

fernando nunes
 

Well, I’ve already find out how to keep the headlight on in both directions, in an ESU decoder V4.0: CV31=16, CV32=2 and CV346=3. Paul, CV33 applies to Digitrax decoders or to ESU standard decoders, so far as I know (CVs 33-46/7: function mapping).


Fernando

Re: Bus Wiring....

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Brian, It is all moving into the direction of a paperless society. (^_^) Yep… the print-the-page concept also captures all the junk and is usually not compatible with what you want to see. [Likewise a simple print-out of local movie house show times on a single page is almost impossible. We’re supposed to be “always connected”.]

 

Forget about fighting with Yahoo. Copy & paste always works with MS Outlook email messages and it should work with other e-mail programs.

 

This is where using the mouse if far superior to touch-pads or touch-screens. Open up a page in your favorite text editor (MSWord or whatever). Then go back to the forum messages and highlight the text with your mouse cursor then try the CTRL+C (copy) then CTRL+V (paste) trick to copy & paste what you want into your personal file. You should be able to re-edit to clean it up using the text editor after you get it there. Save it with a filename you will remember. You can also add more info at a later date to that same file.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 8:43 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Bus Wiring....

 




I wish it was as simple to make a copy of this discussion!!! Maybe its just my stupidity and lack of understanding this 'computer world, but when I 'copied' this section and tried to place it in a text document I could print, the margins are all off such that the text does not fit on a page correctly.


I wanted to print this out so I could have a copy in front of me all the time!

 

Sorry for my rant at these 'computer/software' compatibilities?
Brian

 

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:35 AM, asychis@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Allan, It is refreshing to read something simple and straightforward.  No math, no equipment, no engineering, no philosophy, just a simple quarter!  Simple is usually the best. Jerry Michels

 




How are people wiring their layouts?

R. Swieder
 

I am new to this discussion group so forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been answered - if so just point me to the answer.  Best advice seems to have a track drop every other track section which is connected to a main ( or section ) Buss.  All of the examples I see show nice simple wiring - usually 3 or 4 drops per 4 foot section.  I have 2 - 9 foot long, 5 track wide, back to back double ended yards with a double ladder separating them. All switch are controlled by tortoises.  Assuming 2 drops per track and 1 for each tortoise that is a lot of wire in a relatively small area.  Does anyone have suggestions on "best practices", wire routing, etc. to keep this all organized and maintainable?

Bob Swieder


Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

Yes Bob... that does seem like a lot of wires. But there are also a lot of tracks. You will probably mount the yard track switches firmly to the roadbed at each end of the yards as is typical for Tortoise operation. So be sure to allow for table/track expansion/shrinkage differences between track and the sub roadbed due to temperature or humidity changes, particularly if the yard tracks are straight. This means there should be unsoldered rail joiners and/or slight rail gaps on each 9 foot yard track to allow for some movement as you assemble them. The most fool-proof long-term way would be to assemble each yard track using 3 ft sections of flex track (cut to fit) with slip-joint metal rail joiners between sections and the turnout switches. Then solder 20-22 ga rail droppers at about the midpoint (not critical) to the rails of each track section. Under the layout make a sub-bus to connect all the droppers from each N or S rail together using 18 ga wire. If you plan on allowing for disconnect switches wire up those sub-busses separately to follow the rails of each yard track. Then connect those to your DCC mains supply. If you will not have any disconnect switches, simply connect all the N and S rail droppers from all 5 tracks together at each 1/3rd of the way location, then connect those to the main DCC bus feeder (or circuit breaker, take your pick). Either way, you will have the most reliable electrical connection to each rail with no surprise rail kinking. [From your 9 ft yard track dimension I’m assuming HO scale. If you are using larger or smaller scale adjust my suggestions of wire size accordingly.]

 

Plan ahead also at the yard switches. Use slip joint rail joiners between switches and provide track power droppers at each stock rail on each switch. Power routing types of switches may require insulated joiners. Do some research.

If the yard tracks are curved, sideways expansion/contraction can occur more gracefully. You could get by by soldering the rail joiners at each flex track section of yard track and providing a single set of track droppers somewhere near in the middle of each yard track. (4 ½ ft from dropper to end)

 

Caution – Believe what me and others say about relying on carrying current through slip-on metal rail joiners. You can put it all together using new rails and rail joiners and a minimum of track power droppers and it might work OK for several weeks or months. But as time goes on … you will eventually have no end of intermittent poor electrical connection grief. This also goes for the rail joiners with track dropper wires already attached. The connection to the rails is actually through a slip-on joint (!).

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 12:17 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] How are people wiring their layouts?

 



I am new to this discussion group so forgive me if I am asking a question that has already been answered - if so just point me to the answer.  Best advice seems to have a track drop every other track section which is connected to a main ( or section ) Buss.  All of the examples I see show nice simple wiring - usually 3 or 4 drops per 4 foot section.  I have 2 - 9 foot long, 5 track wide, back to back double ended yards with a double ladder separating them. All switch are controlled by tortoises.  Assuming 2 drops per track and 1 for each tortoise that is a lot of wire in a relatively small area.  Does anyone have suggestions on "best practices", wire routing, etc. to keep this all organized and maintainable?

Bob Swieder

 




Re: Bus Wiring....

asychis@...
 

Curious, I have no problem highlighting all  the messages in a given digest and pasting into Word.  Are you using digest mode?  It might help.  Jerry Michels

Re: Gap alignment

JBJudy
 

Just reading you response to a question I am wondering about. You say the gaps don't have to be directly opposite - close is OK. Could you elaborate on "close"? If they aren't opposite, wouldn't that cause a double trip? I'm new to DCC, so if the answer is obvious, please excuse my drilling down on the subject.

Re: How are people wiring their layouts?

asychis@...
 

A very BIG  yes to DonV's comment.  If not taken to heart this will bedevil you like nothing else!  Unless you want to court aggravation, solder drops to any section of track that is not soldered to a section of track with drops.  The intermittent nature of the break in power due to rail joiners slipping is the real frustration.
 
Jerry Michels  
 
"Believe what me and others say about relying on carrying current through slip-on metal rail joiners. You can put it all together using new rails and rail joiners and a minimum of track power droppers and it might work OK for several weeks or months. But as time goes on … you will eventually have no end of intermittent poor electrical connection grief. This also goes for the rail joiners with track dropper wires already attached. The connection to the rails is actually through a slip-on joint (!).

DonV "

Re: Gap alignment

Vollrath, Don <dvollrath@...>
 

As a truck with two power pick-up axles bridges a gap on either rail isolating an auto-reversing section of track an electrical connection is developed on that rail between the two sections. If they are of opposite polarity, the AR unit senses this as a short circuit and quickly reverses the polarity of both rails the reversing section to correct the problem. Once that is completed the job is done. It doesn’t make any differences which isolating gap on which rail is ‘jumpered’ first. The polarity of both rails of the reversing section now match that of the main. No further shorts are caused at that end of the reversing tracks by other trucks or steel wheels crossing or jumpering either one of the gaps. You can prove that to yourself using lightbulbs and manually applied temporary jumper wires.

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2015 8:50 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Gap alignment

 



Just reading you response to a question I am wondering about. You say the gaps don't have to be directly opposite - close is OK. Could you elaborate on "close"? If they aren't opposite, wouldn't that cause a double trip? I'm new to DCC, so if the answer is obvious, please excuse my drilling down on the subject.