Date   
Re: Hot Snubber

Bob <rehandjr@...>
 

They are still sold by American Companies even though the parts are made in China, Vietnam, Brazil, Mexico.  Tony's, Yankee Dabbler, ModelTrainStuff, All Electronics, Small Bear, Parts Express would all appreciate the business.
 
bob


From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Ed S
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 4:31 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] RE: Hot Snubber

 

From what I read I go with...

1. it is not a snubber or a terminator (Arnold agrees), it is a RC
filter as per Mark G
( the title of the section on this subject in
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track.htm should be changed)
2. it should be placed at the end of a long bus
3. it can be placed anywhere on the bus where you have problems
4. the command station has a built in RC filter so none is needed near the C.S.
5. I ordered a bunch of parts from China (why buy in US they are all
made in China, you are just paying a middle man)

As to the hot one, we need the original poster to tell us the results
of the suggestions he received.

Ed S

At 04:05 PM 3/11/2014, you wrote:
>
>
>Rich,
>
>Has the hot snubber issue resolved? There were many responses even
>though some seemed to get away from the original problem.
>
>Post/share your results or findings!
>
>Len Jaskiewicz


NOTE: This message was trained as non-spam. If this is wrong, please correct the training as soon as possible.
Spam
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Forget previous vote

Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

Bob H <rehandjr@...>
 

Dante,

I think you are the first who answered the question that was asked. I think this is exactly the information that Rich wanted.

Thanks. bob

---- Original Message ----
From: "Annette and Dante Fuligni" <dfuligni2144@...>
Sent: 3/10/2014 11:51:55 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

Rich,

I have some Walthers/Shinohara older, non-DCC friendly turnouts that are power-routing. Typically, I do in effect gap the rails from the frog by using insulating joiners. However, there are a couple of locations where these turnouts feed and power stub yard tracks. The layout is small, and I don’t anticipate running two locos simultaneously on the stub yard tracks in question; therefore, I only need to power one of these adjacent tracks at a time. Therefore, I don’t have to gap the rails from those frogs. I believe the same reasoning would apply to the use of PECO Electrofrogs (to reply to your basic question). :-)

Dante

------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.comYahoo Groups Links





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Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

William Teeters <cozyflyr9398@...>
 

A lot of people throw the term "gap" out there with no explanation as what they mean which, leads to a lot of misunderstanding. Is the rail being cut?. or are insulators being used?. An explanation of actually what is being done would stop a lot of confusion and cost to the person who is not wise to where the rail can actually can be cut without a disaster, such as the small rail sections falling out in a persons hand when the cut is made.. Just a thought, a lot of great information on this site. Bill Teeters Chicago,Peoria and Western RR. As seen on the RockRail.org site, Located Rockford, Ill.



From: Scott H. Haycock
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

 
 

CZ wrote:
Stub ended sidings where you're feeding power from the switch point end will not require that gapping.

If the siding is only a single industry, where no locomotives will be operating, you are correct. But if it is  situation where a locomotive will be spotting cars while the turnout is aligned the other way, as in a multi-spot industry, or a short branch into an industrial park,  a condition where both rails are the same polarity (phase, in DCC) will occur, if you don't isolate the frog.
As you noted, using the concepts of DCC friendly turnout wiring is best, even if you are not using DCC, Also, I would wire (and gap) every turnout to these standards, whether necessary or not. When it comes to model railroad wiring, standardization,  consistency, and documentation  in you wiring practices will benefit you down the road, when you find yourself troubleshooting a problem!__




Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent



Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Phil Euper <peuper@...>
 

Agree Ed.......Len, why not look at the output of the command station then put this output thru
the booster you built and look at it's output and compare the two outputs. If they
are same or close to the same you should have a successful build!

Regards

Phil Euper in SC

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed S
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:08 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Len

I do not understand why you would test it with out sending DCC
packets. Isn't that the point?

Ed S

At 06:53 PM 3/12/2014, you wrote:


Thanks Mark,

MERG UK has some pretty neat stuff as kits for very reasonable cost.
Membership is needed but cheap. The boosters are $45 for a complete
kit and I've verified that NCE users have them and work well. I
haven't looked into the front end as to the driver chip and DCC
packet protocol, but it just dawned on me I can bypass that and test
the power output section. That's where the smoke and heat is.

I always look for a sanity check!

Len Jaskiewicz



------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.comYahoo Groups Links

Re: Garden layouts/Booster Protective Housing

john
 

Weather proof wiring is easy but a little expensive. You can use Type UF wire and make your splices in underground, grease filled splice packs from your local electrical supply. If the distances are not too long or too many, multiple runs are better than splices. Mounting electronics out doors is tedious and expensive, while running a number of wires can be reasonable. Track connections are important out doors, I found that mechanical clamps are and excellent value.
enjoy.
john

From: "bigboy@..."
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 10:57 PM
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Garden layouts/Booster Protective Housing



I debated whether to put the boosters in waterproof housings and try to run network cable through the garden or mount everything in the garage.  I opted to put everything in the garage.  As it turned out, the Texas summers are so hot, that I needed to add fans to my wall mounted boosters.  If I had tried to mount them in waterproof housings in the sun, I surely would have been in trouble. 

Allan





Re: Hot Snubber

Kurt Konrath
 

It's not the positrons, negatrons or electrons you have to deal with.  It's those pesky Grematrons that run amuck in the circuits that cause such problems

Kurt k


On Mar 11, 2014, at 5:54 PM, <redking56@...> wrote:

 

Sorry about the delay in getting back on the hot snubber issue.

My plan was to either simply replace it or at least swap it with a cool one.
But, before doing either one, I wanted to examine the snubber once again because when I noticed how hot it was last week, it was while I was looking for a short on my layout.
Today, I powered up the layout and waited about 30 minutes, then felt the snubber.  The capacitor was cool to the touch, although last week I nearly burned my finger when I touched it.
However, I did burn my finger when I touched the resistor.  The resistor was warm to hot last week but not like today.
So, that is where I am at.  Suggestions?
Rich

Re: Snubgber or Terminator or what?

asychis@...
 

Bernie, as I understand it, "both ends" would mean a situation were there was something like a "T" configuration where the buss coming out of the booster tees of in two directions.  Same would apply if it was a star with more than two busses out from the booster, a terminator at the end of each buss.  I do agree the working in Wiring for DCC is a bit confusing.  I originally thought you'd need one at the booster end and the far end.
 
Jerry Michels

Re: Snubgber or Terminator or what?

asychis@...
 

Never heard of a 50 watt capacitor. lol
Rich
 
OOPS!  That should have read volts.  See, I told you I was an amateur, not to mention I type too fast for my own good.
 
Jerry Michels

Re: Peco Electrofrog - Adding Gaps

Scott H. Haycock
 

 


CZ wrote:
Stub ended sidings where you're feeding power from the switch point end will not require that gapping.

If the siding is only a single industry, where no locomotives will be operating, you are correct. But if it is  situation where a locomotive will be spotting cars while the turnout is aligned the other way, as in a multi-spot industry, or a short branch into an industrial park,  a condition where both rails are the same polarity (phase, in DCC) will occur, if you don't isolate the frog.

As you noted, using the concepts of DCC friendly turnout wiring is best, even if you are not using DCC, Also, I would wire (and gap) every turnout to these standards, whether necessary or not. When it comes to model railroad wiring, standardization,  consistency, and documentation  in you wiring practices will benefit you down the road, when you find yourself troubleshooting a problem!__





Scott Haycock
Modeling Tarheel country in the Land of Enchantm
ent

Re: Snubgber or Terminator or what?

Douglas Krahn
 

Ed:

Sorry for the confusion.  Things get confusing when people use the wrong term or call an item something it is not.  There are several types of terminators.  What you are interested in is a R/C filter made up of a 100 ohm resistor and a 0.1 uF cap.  The cap should have a rating of at least 50WVDC.  That is 50 working volts dc.  The W stands for working, not Watts.  Hope this helps.

Doug K

From: Ed S
To: WiringForDCC@...
Sent: Sunday, March 9, 2014 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Snubgber or Terminator or what?
 
Jerry,

Yes

Ed S

At 01:31 PM 3/9/2014, you wrote:
 

Guys, this is getting confusing.  Reading the wiringfordcc documents, it sure seem to me that what is described there as a terminator reads the to me as what others are calling a snubber.  All I really want to know is if regardless of the terms being tossed around, all of these are simply a capacitor and resistor soldered together, preferably a 100 ohm, 1/2 watt resistor and a 50 watt 0.1 mfd capacitor?
 
Jerry

Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

Could it be the specific location of that particular snubber?
Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

Flash Gordon
 

Sounds like you had a bad capacitor.... throw it and the red hot resistor away.

If you do not like the resistors being warm swap a warm pair with a cool pair and see if the heat goes with the warm pair. If it does scrap the warm pair and replace them. I have suggested this before. It is the only way to see if the warm pair are defective or you have some other problem.

Personally I do not like warm components, that is a loss/waste of current turning to heat.

Ed S

At 03:14 PM 3/14/2014, you wrote:


I made my way over to my local Radio Shack today and picked up a capacitor, 0.1 uF,250 WVDC (272-10530 and a pair of resistors, 100 ohm, 1 Watt (271-152).

Since a pair of resistors came in the package, I decided to first replace the 1/2 watt resistor with a 1 watt resistor while keeping the original capacitor. Result: the 1 watt resistor was red hot.

So, I soldered the other 1 watt resistor to the new capacitor and soldered it in place of the older assembly. The resistor was very warm but not hot so that I could hold onto it between my fingers.

In both cases, the capacitor was cool to the touch.

I went along my layout and examined the other snubbers. All of the capacitors were cool. Some of the resistors were cool, some were warm, none was hot.

Thoughts?

Rich

Re: Hot Snubber

Charlie Sleep <csleep@...>
 


I am the last person to ask regarding anything electronic. Having said that, it seems to me that a resistor would have to be conducting current to get warm and a capacitor is supposed to block DC current. Is the snubber actually passing enough AC through the network to produce current fluctuations strong enough to heat the resistor?
 
Thanks for clarifying my ignorance.
 
Charlie Sleep

Re: Hot Snubber

redking56@...
 

I made my way over to my local Radio Shack today and picked up a capacitor, 0.1 uF,250 WVDC (272-10530 and a pair of resistors, 100 ohm, 1 Watt (271-152).

Since a pair of resistors came in the package, I decided to first replace the 1/2 watt resistor with a 1 watt resistor while keeping the original capacitor.  Result: the 1 watt resistor was red hot.

So, I soldered the other 1 watt resistor to the new capacitor and soldered it in place of the older assembly. The resistor was very warm but not hot so that I could hold onto it between my fingers.

In both cases, the capacitor was cool to the touch.

I went along my layout and examined the other snubbers.  All of the capacitors were cool.  Some of the resistors were cool, some were warm, none was hot.

Thoughts?

Rich



Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Flash Gordon
 

Thanks Len..

Yep eliminate variables.... continue and report.

Ed S

At 07:50 PM 3/12/2014, you wrote:



Len

I do not understand why you would test it with out sending DCC
packets. Isn't that the point?

Ed S
Ed,

DCC packets is not the primary point of testing!

The booster is a power device. The main output is a H-bridge configuration, typical of motor controllers. It has to first be established that the power section is functioning as designed and at full power and there are no thermal issues with the switching devices. The testing should also include transient overloads to verify protection circuitry(I have over 30 yrs experience in switching power design).

Hope this helps your understanding as well as others.

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

jazzmanlj
 


Len

I do not understand why you would test it with out sending DCC
packets. Isn't that the point?

Ed S
Ed,

DCC packets is not the primary point of testing!

The booster is a power device. The main output is a H-bridge configuration, typical of motor controllers. It has to first  be established that the power section is functioning as designed and at full power and there are no thermal issues with the switching devices. The testing should also include transient overloads to verify protection circuitry(I have over 30 yrs experience in switching power design).

Hope this helps your understanding as well as others.

Len Jaskiewicz

 

 

 

Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Flash Gordon
 

Len

I do not understand why you would test it with out sending DCC packets. Isn't that the point?

Ed S

At 06:53 PM 3/12/2014, you wrote:


Thanks Mark,

MERG UK has some pretty neat stuff as kits for very reasonable cost. Membership is needed but cheap. The boosters are $45 for a complete kit and I've verified that NCE users have them and work well. I haven't looked into the front end as to the driver chip and DCC packet protocol, but it just dawned on me I can bypass that and test the power output section. That's where the smoke and heat is.

I always look for a sanity check!

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: Garden layouts/Booster Protective Housing

jazzmanlj
 

Thanks Allan,

Kind of makes me wonder on some of these massive layouts out west how they approach the cooling.

I'm in Mass so it's not so bad. I'll do worst case testing before making decisions.

 

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

jazzmanlj
 

Thanks Mark,

MERG UK has some pretty neat stuff as kits for very reasonable cost. Membership is needed but cheap. The boosters are $45 for a complete kit and I've verified that NCE users have them and work well. I haven't looked into the front end as to the driver chip and DCC packet protocol, but it just dawned on me I can bypass that and test the power output section. That's where the smoke and heat is.

I always look for a sanity check!

Len Jaskiewicz

Re: loading a booster for performance and thermal testing

Mark Gurries
 

On Mar 12, 2014, at 3:06 PM, <len.jask@...> <len.jask@...> wrote:

I'll be building MERG boosters soon set up as 10A units. My thought is to drive it with a 8-10kHz square wave as opposed to a command station and use pure resistive load. This way I should be able to probe around and verify most waveforms and a good balance in the output drivers.

Any thoughts or comments on this approach appreciated.

Len Jaskiewicz
That would be a good test if it worked.

I do not know anything about this MERG boosters to know if it will work or not. So Boosters might look for a DCC packet protocol. Do not know. I know no harm will come of it if you try.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com