Date   

DO NOT OPEN!

Harvey L. McRae
 

Someone got into our laptop addresses (bettymcrae@...) and a couple email's have gone out with some "CLICK HERE TO GET THIS MESSAGE"

This is a VIRUS................. DELETE IMMEDIATELY and DO NOT OPEN.

We have changed passwords so hope this corrects this situation.

Harvey & Betty McRae.

--
Harvey L. McRae
838 McKenzie Road,
Kelowna, BC., V1X2B3
Ph:250-765-1000
Cell:250-808-4466
www.harriscreekcentral.webs.com


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

René Lüthi
 

Steven

Thank you for this valuable information. I am heating up the solder iron.

Ren.


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

René Lüthi
 

This is my first attempt in block detecting. I didn't know that these
little gizmos are such sensitive. I wanted a dependable monitoring of
the yard tracks when there is a single LED only present, which is a
lighted caboose. That's why I slung three loops trough the transformers.
One transformer needed four loops and two others out of ten did it with
2 loops to be exactly.

Ren.


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Max Maginness
 

Quite true of course - the question is really why do you need it so
sensitive in the first place?

Max

-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On
Behalf Of René Lüthi
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 2:28 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track
occupancy detectors.

Max

The more loops of bus wire there are in the transformer the better is
the sensitivity. I had the misassumption that the capacitor needs the
equal number of loops.

René.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Mark Gurries
 

I agree about disabling any DC options in the command station if
they are not being used. Especially true of the decoder in
turning it off via CV29.

That said, in this case a 0.28V (280 millivolts) DC presence
within a DCC signal is not a major DCV value of concern.
Variation in a given boosters DCC drive (waveshape) and/or DCC
noise can fool a voltmeter at this level. Why? A 0.28V is not
even enough voltage to make a DC motor run on pure DC nor fool a
decoder into thinking there is DC on the track. A major DC
presence would be a DC value in multiple Volts.

On 1/9/12 at 3:12 PM, smithbr@... (Blair & Rasa) wrote:
René
Just in case this detail got missed, I will reiterate what one
other poster pointed out. A DC level of 0.28V is only
indicative of a problem if you are absolutely sure DC
compatibility has been disabled in your CS/Booster. Even if
you normally operate with DC compatibility enabled, it is very
worthwhile to disable it and do the DC check again before shipping.

Don't ask me how I know!
Sigh.

Blair Smith



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Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Blair
 

Ren�
Just in case this detail got missed, I will reiterate what one other poster pointed out. A DC level of 0.28V is only indicative of a problem if you are absolutely sure DC compatibility has been disabled in your CS/Booster. Even if you normally operate with DC compatibility enabled, it is very worthwhile to disable it and do the DC check again before shipping.

Don't ask me how I know!
Sigh.

Blair Smith


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

René Lüthi
 

Max

The more loops of bus wire there are in the transformer the better is
the sensitivity. I had the misassumption that the capacitor needs the
equal number of loops.

Ren.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

René Lüthi
 

Mark

thanks for this multiple answers. There are transformer type detectors.
Now the bus wires will be separated, that is, all feeders have to be
unsoldered and the bus wires untwisted. Then the capacitor wires through
the transformers will be reduced to one loop. I think I have time for
this work, because the Command station/Booster's Output is out of
symmetry by 0.28 Volt, and needs probably some rework.

Ren.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Shinohara Turnout

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

On Jan 9, 2012, at 5:05 AM, WiringForDCC@... wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.
Not a good idea...at all. This will give you all sorts of problems, not the least of which is placing stress on the point assembly.

Although I routinely jumper these rails on the bench from the underside of the turnout- with #29 tinned uninsulated wire- providing wide-enough "loops" in the jumpers so that point rail movement is not impeded, this can also still be done with the turnout in place, but this time with the jumper on top of the ties, disguised with ballast, etc.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.
This kind of fix is my "last resort" . It works well, is fast, and can be a very effective expedient.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Already have Shinohara

Sam Urrate <brunet42@...>
 

My Shinohara turnouts I want to modify were purchases 25 years ago.

I buy ME turnouts when I buy new ones.

I want to modify the old Shinohara turnouts for the yards and sidings.


Thank You, Sam


Re: Shinohara Turnout

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

On Jan 9, 2012, at 5:05 AM, WiringForDCC@... wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.
Not a good idea...at all. This will give you all sorts of problems, not the least of which is placing stress on the point assembly.

Although I routinely jumper these rails on the bench from the underside of the turnout- with #29 tinned uninsulated wire- providing wide-enough "loops" in the jumpers so that point rail movement is not impeded, this can also still be done with the turnout in place, but this time with the jumper on top of the ties, disguised with ballast, etc.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.
This kind of fix is my "last resort" . It works well, is fast, and can be a very effective expedient.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Non DCC friendly Shinohara turnouts - how do you rework

Alan
 

Check this website out and cut the rails and install PC board ties where stated I have converted the Shinohara turnouts and hand built my own and all are now DCC friendly. Just pick the Track Template that applies to you Alan C. http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Fast-Tracks-Printable-Track-Templates-s/11.htm

--- In WiringForDCC@..., Mark Gurries <gurriesm@...> wrote:

On 1/2/12 at 12:12 PM, bill@... (BILL AULICINO) wrote:
Sam,
There's no such thing as a DCC friendly turnout.
True, there is no such thing as a switch that is only compatible
with DCC. Any switch that works with DC will work with DCC.

So the question is not will it work, but HOW WELL IT WILL WORK
with DCC. That is were the marketing term "DCC Friendly" comes
from. A DCC Friendly switch is one with electrical-mechanical
improvements to minimize the problems with momentary shorts that
some locomotive experience when running through a switch.

There are insulfrog turnouts and electrofrog turnouts.
True.

Peco and late Walthers turnouts are insulfrogs.
True.

The advice you are about to receive is how to turn electrofrogs into insulfrogs.
That is not 100% true for it is an incomplete statement of what
modification work is done. The rework in NOT limited to the
frog itself but also include the point rails which are ALSO a
source of shorts INDEPENDENT of the frog. In the process of
making a insulfrog out of an electro frog, the point rails also
modified to make sure they never have the opposite polarity of
the stock rail they come into contract with.

Stated another way, you can take a old shinohara turnout that is
power routing or ElectroFrog and install insulated gaps in the
rail to electrically isolate the frog and create a Insulfrog
turnout. However that is NOT enough. That modification does
not address the point rail short circuit problem that happen
when the back of the metal wheel come into contact with the OPEN
point rail.

So a turnout that addresses both the FROG and the Point rail
potential short circuit issues is considered to be DCC friendly.

I chose to buy insulfrogs. They absolutely plug and play.
True. It make little sense to design a insulfrog turnout and
still have the point rail still be problematic. So commercial
turnout that are insulfrog address both issue by default.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Shinohara Turnout

Alan
 

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Alan" <acun95128@...> wrote:

you might try going to this web site and pick out the turnout plans that apply to your situation and make the necessary cuts for the frogs etc and install copper PCboard ties in the places marked in the plans I build my own turnouts and have Shinohara turnouts that I have converted successfully!!!!! These are now DCC Friendly http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Fast-Tracks-Printable-Track-Templates-s/11.htm

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "DavidK" <davidklemm7511@> wrote:

Question to see how others fixed an issue. I have some Shinohara turnouts that are installed that have lost power to some of the point rails through the joiner. These did not have the modification that is shown on the website. These are ballasted turnouts so removing them is not an option.

My initial reaction is to solder the rail joiner to both sides. I realize this reduces flexibility but given the joiner is only a quarter inch long, I can't imagine that this would impact rail gauge etc. These are number 8 and 10's so the point rail is very long.

My other thought was to drill 2 holes through the table and add one side of a feeder wire to the pivot rail and the other end to the fixed rail.

Thanks

David


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Max Maginness
 

To back up for a moment- why does it need three turns to start with?

Max



From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Mark Gurries
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:07 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.





On 1/5/12 at 11:28 AM, renluethi@... <mailto:renluethi%40bluewin.ch> wrote:

Don,

Tank you for this message. I have seen this already and tried
it out. I have 3 windings of bus wire through the transformer
and I tried to quench also 3 windings of wire from the cap
through the transformer. But it was impossible due to space, so
there are 2 windings only. But after that, things were worse!
The trick is to use smaller gauge wire through the transformer.
Specifically use 18 AWG down to 24 AWG magnet wire. Magnet wire
does not have a plastic insulation. It has a tough but very
thin coat of enamel insulation. Short sections of small gauge
wire (1 foot or less) is not going to hurt anything.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



_____

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1416 / Virus Database: 2109/4127 - Release Date: 01/06/12



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Mark Gurries
 

On 1/5/12 at 11:28 AM, renluethi@... wrote:

Don,

Tank you for this message. I have seen this already and tried
it out. I have 3 windings of bus wire through the transformer
and I tried to quench also 3 windings of wire from the cap
through the transformer. But it was impossible due to space, so
there are 2 windings only. But after that, things were worse!
The trick is to use smaller gauge wire through the transformer.
Specifically use 18 AWG down to 24 AWG magnet wire. Magnet wire
does not have a plastic insulation. It has a tough but very
thin coat of enamel insulation. Short sections of small gauge
wire (1 foot or less) is not going to hurt anything.



Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Mark Gurries
 

On 1/4/12 at 7:51 AM, renluethi@... wrote:
Hello,

I am new here and have a question in wiring a yard with four
parallel tracks that are equipped with block occupancy
detectors of the transformer type.
The detectors are in the middle of the 21 ft long yard tracks
and indicate, "track occupied" with empty tracks. The bus wires
are twisted together yet, but I learned that it is wrong to
twist bus wires downstream of the detectors. I will correct this.
Sorry about that.

Don V email offers the best fix if you have a current sensing
"transformer" type occupancy detector.

Assuming that is not an option for you:

Should each track have its own pair of bus wire
That is one option that will work any and all types of occupancy detectors.

or is it ok to have a common red wire for the four tracks and
one blue wire going from the detector to each of the four tracks?
This option will work too depending on what type of block
detector you have and what side the DCC track bus you using.

However when it comes to block occupancy detection, it is best
to establish a standard as to which rail and hence which wire
color will be the "detected side" of the DCC bus. Use that as
your standard for the entire layout.

If you have a current sensing "transformer" type occupancy
detector, it will not matter which option you use. If you have
"diode" type detection, then is can matter which rail you use
for detection depending on the rules the detector requires for installation.

So what type of block detector are se talking about?

Have the wires then to be separated from each other?
Yes to prevent false occupancy by means of installation design.
In other words you install it making sure there is a define
spacing between the wires over the entire length of the bus
run. But if you leave the wires loose and randomly flowing
togther, you probably be OK. However success will have a chance
factor in it especially if the wire run get really long.

It is the same situation as in the sketch in the chapter "Block
Wiring for Large Layouts V.2", but the tracks are parallel.

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Mark Gurries
 

An assymetrcial DCC signal in the time domain is an indication
of one attempting to control a DC locomotive on a DCC powered
layout using Locomotive Address 0 on the throttle. It would
imply the throttle has been left at some speed other than Zero.


On 1/6/12 at 8:26 AM, dvollrath@... (Vollrath, Don) wrote:
Yes, the high frequency current transformer is not designed to
handle asymmetrical current with a DC bias, but I'm not sure
what it will do to the operation of the NCE BD20 detector. I
would expect it to either ignore it, or have reduced
sensitivity to detect actual occupancy rather than indicate
false positives. You are apparently using Digitrax (which DOES
allow using an asymmetrical ...analog... loco), so make sure
that the controller is not producing the asymmetrical DCC
signal on purpose. There may be a symmetry adjustment. I
suggest asking that question on a Digitrax forum.
DonV
-----Original Message-----
From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of René Lüthi
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:22 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Don,

Thank you.There is a small 22AWG wire, and I will reduce the
windings as you recommend. I found also, that the DCC signal on
the tracks is out of symmetry. When measuring the DC volt
amount from rail to rail, I read 0.28 V. The manufacturer of
the decoders, which I have, told me that it should not be more
than 30 mV, to be sure that the decoders are working properly
for a certain function. Is it possible that this asymmetry
causes an escalation of a false occupied signal? And is it
possible to adjust the symmetry of the DCS200 without sending
it across the Atlantic for a small fortune in shipping fees?

René.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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------------------------------------

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Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

Steve Juranics
 

Not only are you playing electrician, you get to play carpenter and artist and if you want to get into JRMI, you have to be an I.T. Profesional to understand that stuff. This hobby has something for everyone.

Steve Juranics

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...] On Behalf Of Jeff Masiello
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:33 AM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: Re: [WiringForDCC] Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

I gotta say all this stuff makes me feel more like I'm playing
electrician than model railroader.

Jeff Masiello


Re: Hidden Yard wiring, equipped with track occupancy detectors.

René Lüthi
 

If the sensitivity is reduced to stop false positives, the detector is unable to detect a whole train with working engine and lighted caboose! I think the symmetry has to be settled first. Thank you for clearing up this situation.
René.

--- In WiringForDCC@..., "Vollrath, Don" <dvollrath@...> wrote:

Yes, the high frequency current transformer is not designed to handle asymmetrical current with a DC bias, but I'm not sure what it will do to the operation of the NCE BD20 detector. I would expect it to either ignore it, or have reduced sensitivity to detect actual occupancy rather than indicate false positives. You are apparently using Digitrax (which DOES allow using an asymmetrical ...analog... loco), so make sure that the controller is not producing the asymmetrical DCC signal on purpose. There may be a symmetry adjustment. I suggest asking that question on a Digitrax forum.
DonV


Re: NWSL Stanton Drive as slow speed power for an HO RDC conversion to DCC?

Dennis <linden13@...>
 

Thanks Chris. I have the old Athearn RDCs; so thanks again for the caution to use metal gearsets. Slow speed operation is a must; and given the Stanton Drive cost, it might make more sense to get the added weight by going the can motor route despite the added work required. Have a super 2012!
Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Brown
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 10:20 AM
To: wiringfordcc@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] NWSL Stanton Drive as slow speed power for an HO RDC conversion to DCC?


I have a Stanton drive in some of my Silverliner III EMUs. They aren't the best slow speed runners, but with some tinkering in DCC, i'm sure they can be tuned to work right. I have found they can be a little weak pulling a single car by itself. My Silverliner kits were relatively light (I had to add weight to get the wheels of the Stanton to grab). Eventually, I got it to be able to pull one light trailer, but this eventually caused damage to the plastic gears on the axle. Basically, these trucks can't take a lot of strain, unless you use the metal axle gear option. If it was your plan to just run single units (with no trailers), one truck might be enough. If you're operating multiple RDCs in one train, it may be wiser to power both trucks of one unit, or have a powered truck in each car. The Stanton drive was simple for me to install in my Silverliner III kits, but i do not know which version of the RDC I you own (Athearn? dummy P1K? other type?). Essentially, you just just need to make a hole in the floor somewhere to mount the drive, and just screw the nuts down to hold it in place. an extra hole lets you run the wires up to the decoder from the truck. DCC is a no brainer with the stanton drive. just unsolder the pickup wires from the motor contacts, and attach the corresponding decoder wires. Chris To: WiringForDCC@...
From: linden13@q.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 02:35:19 +0000
Subject: [WiringForDCC] NWSL Stanton Drive as slow speed power for an HO RDC conversion to DCC?




























When in college many years ago, I commuted dailly via RDC commuters operating out of Washington's Union Station. Most nights, I would be the only passenger waiting on the platform near our university as the RDC slowed to a near stop as I swung aboard, the conductor pressed the button, and we immediately accelerated into the darkness. Needless to say, I have several old & unpowered HO RDCs I now want to incorporate in a new HO DCC shelf layout I'm designing.



Originally, I planned to install a small NWSL can motor,flywheels, NWSL slow speed gearset(s), interior detail, lighting, DCC decoder, and QSI sound. Now that NWSL has introduced the Stanton self-contained underfloor power unit, I wonder: (a) if this wouldn't be a much simpler powering alternative; and be (b) equally effective in slow speed regular operation?






















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