Date   

Re: Crossover "Short"

Don Vollrath
 

Ted, are you using any of the DPDT switches inside the tortoise units to selectively power the frog? If so, verify that the mechanical alignment is such that the internal contacts “throw” while the rail points are open between final positions. Both directions of movement.


DonV


Crossover "Short"

Ted Hutchinson
 

Stumped by wiring issue: I've been using NCE Power cab with the NCE SB5 for years with no problems on my layout. Recently I installed nearly 30 Tortoise machines with separate DCC power. Six of the machines control three crossovers (2/crossover). All of a sudden when I activate one of the mainline crossovers to divert to the other route I get a momentary short - as one might get using a reversing loop. The locomotive(s) stop and then restart in second or two. It does not happen when "switching" back to the "through" route. It's diving me nuts! Help? Thoughts?


Re: membership

Allan AE2V
 

Hi Clifford and anyone else wondering about lists broadcasting,

 

Since you are able to post on the Q&A Forum, you should be able to get the postings of others.  You have a choice of receiving each message individually or the less frequent digests.   This is true of any groups.io group.  Go to the group and go to the settings link.  Then select how often you want to receive messages.

 

If you have done this and still are not getting messages, check your junk file.  Note:  My ISP has gone to some form of Microsoft Office 365.  It keeps what it thinks is junk messages on the server and never notifies me.  This is very frustrating.  I have to go to the server every couple of weeks to retrieve messages I want.  If you have this server, make sure you check the “this is not junk” link.

 

Good luck.  Merry Christmas!

 

Allan Gartner

Wiring for DCC

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of Clifford Holder via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2021 8:03 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] membership

 

Please include me in your Q & A list.CWH

 

CWH


membership

Clifford Holder
 

Please include me in your Q & A list.CWH

CWH


NCE Switch-Kat address programming

Lawrence Varady
 

Hi,
I'm hoping someone uses the NCE Switch Kat to control Kato Turnouts and can help me.

I have a Kato track system using an NCE Power Cab and 16 NCE Switch Kats.
When I just used the Power Cab system, I arbitrarily addressed my 16 turnouts as 100-117.

In JMRI the System Name for my 16 turnouts are NT1-NT16.
The NCE AIU-01s are used for turnout state feedback. They are set to Cab Address 4 and 9.
Sensor System Names (per AIU formula) for NT1-14 is NS48-61 and for NT15 & 16 is NS135 & 136.
My question is what address do I program into the SKs when using JMRI?

Thx


Re: Wiring Indicator Bipolar LED into Toggle Switch

emrldsky
 

Hi Marvin,
If it is true that you will ONLY be generating those accessory commands from the Mini-Panel,
then use DPDT switches. One side of each switch would be used to generate the commands as you describe, and the other side would be used to switch the legs of the bi-color diode. This assumes that you will be using the three leg type diodes. If you are going to use the two leg bi-color diode, then use the DPDT switches and hook the diode thru a limiting resistor in parallel with the switch output to the control panel. You will then have to figure out how to make the reverse polarity work as the input to the mini panel.  DPDT switches can be found in almost the same size of the SPDT switches.

Peace,
Mike G.
 

On 12/9/2021 2:43 PM, wirefordcc wrote:
Hi Marvin,

You mention that you want to throw turnouts via accessory commands.  Would you ONLY be generating those accessory commands from the Mini-Panel?  Or would you maybe also throw turnouts via your throttle or JMRI?  If you plan to use a throttle or JMRI or both, you can't do what you want to do because the LED attached to a toggle won't know the state of the turnout after you use your throttle or JMRI.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DC


Re: Wiring Indicator Bipolar LED into Toggle Switch

Allan AE2V
 

Hi Marvin,

You mention that you want to throw turnouts via accessory commands.  Would you ONLY be generating those accessory commands from the Mini-Panel?  Or would you maybe also throw turnouts via your throttle or JMRI?  If you plan to use a throttle or JMRI or both, you can't do what you want to do because the LED attached to a toggle won't know the state of the turnout after you use your throttle or JMRI.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DC


Wiring Indicator Bipolar LED into Toggle Switch

Marvin Pankaskie
 

I am building a toggle switch panel that will control all my turnouts by connecting the 3 (SPDT 3 or 6 lugs) toggle switch leads to a NCE mini-panel and programming it to throw the turnout Tortoises via accessory addresses. For a variety of reasons, I would like to add a bipolar indicating LED to the panel for each toggle switch and connect it somehow to the toggle switch instead of running wire under the layout back to the Tortoise. I know this is not the optimal design, but there are reasons why this may be easier for me to do than crawling under my layout and running more wire. I have not purchased the toggles or LEDs yet pending a more definitive schematic on how to wire the LED to the toggle lugs and then connect the toggle to the mini-panel. Any suggestions will be appreciated.

 

Marvin Pankaskie

Rochester, NY


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

Hallelujah!  Last night I finally got the horizontal leg of the district 2 running with no stalling at the switches. I’ve only got the ascending left leg of the wye to correct. It’s part of the auto reverse and engines stop if they take the left turnout going in either direction. I thought I could maybe move the double gaps down closer to the bottom (making the left upper part of the auto reverse shorter and electrify the other section to see if that would work. I’ve sometimes made discoveries using alligator clips off of other tracks. 


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Jim Betz
 

Charles,
  
  Many shorts in previously working track are caused by closed gaps (at points
where you want the gap).  Closed gaps are often/usually caused by overly
aggressive track cleaning (pressing too hard on the bright boy/roco block)
that causes the rail to move between the small plastic 'spikes' that hold it in
place on the ties.  It can and will "creep" and a gap that was once 1/8th inch
or better can close up.
  Check all of the places where your intended gaps/double gaps are.

  Some times - especially in hidden track - we will leave a metal tool across
the rails that shorts.  This can be on a short section of a stub "where you
aren't looking for it because you are so focused on running trains past that
stub."

  If there has been any recent wiring you may have connected to blocks
to the feeders that shouldn't be connected.

  If you ask me how I know about all of the above - I will deny ever experiencing 
any of them.

  Sometimes, but -very- rarely, switch machine contacts will go bad and cause
a short.
                                                                                                                - Jim


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

Found my short in district 2 !  I cut my drops until it quit shorting out. Now all is working except 2 legs of the wye in upper peninsular.  1) the  left ascending branch of the #2 auto reverse is dead  2) the top of the wye is dead also.  It does not short the system.  I have no track drops in the auto reverse left leg.  The right runs over the isolated end of the auto reverse fine and goes on to district #3. I do have track drops on the horizontal section of the wye.  I’ve been testing with alligator clips but so far no joy.  If any of you have suggestions I’m all ears. So far y’alls suggestions have helped a lot. Thanks


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Blair
 

For anyone wanting to make their own buzzer/battery combo, here's typically what to look for.

https://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G25719

https://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G24442

I've bought from Goldmine many times, always been satisfied with their products.  As a surplus dealer, stuff comes and goes.

Blair


On 12/3/2021 10:39 AM, Blair wrote:

With a 9V battery and a suitable buzzer, you're looking at a few tens of milliamps at most, so it's not an issue - the buzzer limits the current flowing.  That's why I don't use my DCS as the power source.  The hardest part might be finding a decent small buzzer in rural areas, which is why I've repurposed an old smoke alarm.  When I was a kid, every hardware store had them, but nowadays, they're less common.

Blair

On 2021-12-03 10:10, Charles Cauble wrote:
Thanks.  I’ll try to rigg something up. I was afraid I could melt wires with a battery 


On Dec 3, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:



Okay.  Sorry, thought this was understood.  Basically, you replace the Booster with a battery/buzzer combo.  (FWIW, I use an old battery smoke alarm, with a pair of alligator jumpers wired to two sides of the test button, but it doesn't really matter).

When I set out to wire a bunch of feeders to a given booster or circuit breaker output, I disconnect the bus wires and attach one leg of the buzzer to the Rail A bus wire, the second leg of the buzzer to the battery positive, and the battery negative to the Rail B bus wire.  (you must disconnect from the DCS output, or circuit breaker output, without fail).  If the buzzer buzzes right off the bat, you've got something miswired, or you already have a short.  If it doesn't buzz, your next step is to test that it will detect a short, by simply shorting the bus A wire to the bus B wire; if the buzzer sounds, you can detect a short.  Un-short them, and the buzz should stop.

Now you may proceed to wire your feeders.  To be sure all is well, wire your first pair, then momentarily short THE RAILS THAT THE FEEDERS ARE CONNECTED TO - you should hear your buzzer.  If all is well, proceed.  You'll know it if you happen to miswire either rail.  I like this process, because I can be upside down in the far corner of the layout, and I can still hear a warning if I wire something wrong.

Beware, there are limitations.  This setup won't help you if you start to mix in wires from other sections of the layout; you need to know exactly which feeders should be wired to the bus you're working on.

Hope this helps, Charles.  I don't think there's a shortcut for you in this situation - you may end up cutting all your feeders before you find the mistake.

Blair


On 2021-12-03 9:42, Charles Cauble wrote:
I figured I might have a dead feeder or reversed feeder but can’t check when the booster immediately shorts. Could Explain how a battery/buzzer is set up. That would certainly help me verify each hook up


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Blair
 

With a 9V battery and a suitable buzzer, you're looking at a few tens of milliamps at most, so it's not an issue - the buzzer limits the current flowing.  That's why I don't use my DCS as the power source.  The hardest part might be finding a decent small buzzer in rural areas, which is why I've repurposed an old smoke alarm.  When I was a kid, every hardware store had them, but nowadays, they're less common.

Blair

On 2021-12-03 10:10, Charles Cauble wrote:
Thanks.  I’ll try to rigg something up. I was afraid I could melt wires with a battery 


On Dec 3, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:



Okay.  Sorry, thought this was understood.  Basically, you replace the Booster with a battery/buzzer combo.  (FWIW, I use an old battery smoke alarm, with a pair of alligator jumpers wired to two sides of the test button, but it doesn't really matter).

When I set out to wire a bunch of feeders to a given booster or circuit breaker output, I disconnect the bus wires and attach one leg of the buzzer to the Rail A bus wire, the second leg of the buzzer to the battery positive, and the battery negative to the Rail B bus wire.  (you must disconnect from the DCS output, or circuit breaker output, without fail).  If the buzzer buzzes right off the bat, you've got something miswired, or you already have a short.  If it doesn't buzz, your next step is to test that it will detect a short, by simply shorting the bus A wire to the bus B wire; if the buzzer sounds, you can detect a short.  Un-short them, and the buzz should stop.

Now you may proceed to wire your feeders.  To be sure all is well, wire your first pair, then momentarily short THE RAILS THAT THE FEEDERS ARE CONNECTED TO - you should hear your buzzer.  If all is well, proceed.  You'll know it if you happen to miswire either rail.  I like this process, because I can be upside down in the far corner of the layout, and I can still hear a warning if I wire something wrong.

Beware, there are limitations.  This setup won't help you if you start to mix in wires from other sections of the layout; you need to know exactly which feeders should be wired to the bus you're working on.

Hope this helps, Charles.  I don't think there's a shortcut for you in this situation - you may end up cutting all your feeders before you find the mistake.

Blair


On 2021-12-03 9:42, Charles Cauble wrote:
I figured I might have a dead feeder or reversed feeder but can’t check when the booster immediately shorts. Could Explain how a battery/buzzer is set up. That would certainly help me verify each hook up


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

Thanks.  I’ll try to rigg something up. I was afraid I could melt wires with a battery 


On Dec 3, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Blair <smithbr@...> wrote:



Okay.  Sorry, thought this was understood.  Basically, you replace the Booster with a battery/buzzer combo.  (FWIW, I use an old battery smoke alarm, with a pair of alligator jumpers wired to two sides of the test button, but it doesn't really matter).

When I set out to wire a bunch of feeders to a given booster or circuit breaker output, I disconnect the bus wires and attach one leg of the buzzer to the Rail A bus wire, the second leg of the buzzer to the battery positive, and the battery negative to the Rail B bus wire.  (you must disconnect from the DCS output, or circuit breaker output, without fail).  If the buzzer buzzes right off the bat, you've got something miswired, or you already have a short.  If it doesn't buzz, your next step is to test that it will detect a short, by simply shorting the bus A wire to the bus B wire; if the buzzer sounds, you can detect a short.  Un-short them, and the buzz should stop.

Now you may proceed to wire your feeders.  To be sure all is well, wire your first pair, then momentarily short THE RAILS THAT THE FEEDERS ARE CONNECTED TO - you should hear your buzzer.  If all is well, proceed.  You'll know it if you happen to miswire either rail.  I like this process, because I can be upside down in the far corner of the layout, and I can still hear a warning if I wire something wrong.

Beware, there are limitations.  This setup won't help you if you start to mix in wires from other sections of the layout; you need to know exactly which feeders should be wired to the bus you're working on.

Hope this helps, Charles.  I don't think there's a shortcut for you in this situation - you may end up cutting all your feeders before you find the mistake.

Blair


On 2021-12-03 9:42, Charles Cauble wrote:
I figured I might have a dead feeder or reversed feeder but can’t check when the booster immediately shorts. Could Explain how a battery/buzzer is set up. That would certainly help me verify each hook up


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Blair
 

Okay.  Sorry, thought this was understood.  Basically, you replace the Booster with a battery/buzzer combo.  (FWIW, I use an old battery smoke alarm, with a pair of alligator jumpers wired to two sides of the test button, but it doesn't really matter).

When I set out to wire a bunch of feeders to a given booster or circuit breaker output, I disconnect the bus wires and attach one leg of the buzzer to the Rail A bus wire, the second leg of the buzzer to the battery positive, and the battery negative to the Rail B bus wire.  (you must disconnect from the DCS output, or circuit breaker output, without fail).  If the buzzer buzzes right off the bat, you've got something miswired, or you already have a short.  If it doesn't buzz, your next step is to test that it will detect a short, by simply shorting the bus A wire to the bus B wire; if the buzzer sounds, you can detect a short.  Un-short them, and the buzz should stop.

Now you may proceed to wire your feeders.  To be sure all is well, wire your first pair, then momentarily short THE RAILS THAT THE FEEDERS ARE CONNECTED TO - you should hear your buzzer.  If all is well, proceed.  You'll know it if you happen to miswire either rail.  I like this process, because I can be upside down in the far corner of the layout, and I can still hear a warning if I wire something wrong.

Beware, there are limitations.  This setup won't help you if you start to mix in wires from other sections of the layout; you need to know exactly which feeders should be wired to the bus you're working on.

Hope this helps, Charles.  I don't think there's a shortcut for you in this situation - you may end up cutting all your feeders before you find the mistake.

Blair


On 2021-12-03 9:42, Charles Cauble wrote:
I figured I might have a dead feeder or reversed feeder but can’t check when the booster immediately shorts. Could Explain how a battery/buzzer is set up. That would certainly help me verify each hook up


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

I figured I might have a dead feeder or reversed feeder but can’t check when the booster immediately shorts. Could Explain how a battery/buzzer is set up. That would certainly help me verify each hook up


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Blair
 

elemental sketch - just de-curve your layout drawing, trying to minimize the points where tracks cross over, etc. I do this to try and figure out how I would depict the layout on a control panel.  For me, it makes the layout "essential features" much more easily determined.  In your case, it makes the simple loop nature of your layout clear, so observing where reversing sections are needed is straightforward.

Anyway, glad the comment helped.  If zone 2 is still giving you grief, and you've verified all of your booster gapping is indeed gapped (with no feeders inadvertently crossing from one zone to the other, for example, then it comes down to checking each and every feeder.  Tedious.  As Don said, it may come down to cutting/disconnecting feeders until the short goes away, then reconnecting, testing as you go.  If you have to do this, then consider having a buzzer and battery connected instead of the booster.  That's how I wire my feeders, and as a result I know immediately if something is wrong.

Good luck

Blair


On 2021-12-02 21:18, Charles Cauble wrote:
I don’t understand elemental sketches but your description of the track needing it’s polarity swapped helped. I rewired all the way from the left switch in power district 2 till it met the switch in power district 3.  Thanks.  It’s helped because now both #1 and #3 work with no shorts, etc.  Power District 2 still shorts out as soon as I try to hook it up so I have something else wrong


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Don Weigt
 

Charles,

I missed that problem in #2's phase being switched at the turnout without gapping. I'm glad Blair caught it! And rewiring that removed the need to regap at the turnout in District 3. I'm glad District 3 is working now!

I don't see anything wrong now with revised District 2. There's more there that you're not showing us, or a gap that's shorted, or something like that. Maybe a crossed feeder pair.

I think you need to disconnect most of the feeders to District 2, until the short goes away, and part of it is powered, then look at the dead track and wiring related to it, and the boundaries where the dead track meets the live. Sounds like a chore, but less trouble than four weeks' head scratching!

Good luck

--
Don Weigt
Connecticut


Re: Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

I don’t understand elemental sketches but your description of the track needing it’s polarity swapped helped. I rewired all the way from the left switch in power district 2 till it met the switch in power district 3.  Thanks.  It’s helped because now both #1 and #3 work with no shorts, etc.  Power District 2 still shorts out as soon as I try to hook it up so I have something else wrong


Photo CCauble simplified.jpg uploaded #photo-notice

w4dccqa@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

The following photos have been uploaded to the Charles updated layout album of the w4dccqa@groups.io group.

By: Blair <smithbr@...>

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