Date   

Auto reverse area “dead”

Charles Cauble
 

In the photo albums, the first photo in “Charles layout design” shows the 3 isolation locations on the peninsula for auto rev. #2. I’ve removed all electricity from this area except the output side of a psx-ar and there’s no power in the isolated area. Have I missed something?
The NCE doesn’t short out and I’ve proven the psx-ar to ok.


Re: Block detection, Frog juicers and Circuit Breakers.

Perry A Pollino
 

Ken,
If i am understanding what you wrote I should be OK. 
Currently my PSX and AR Boards are daisy chained directly from my Command station al all centrally located. From each PSX or AR (only 2) board I ran a bus to each power district. So as long as my BD's do not cross the power district all should be OK. am I understanding? That would be a relief to me.
Thanks
Perry

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 09:20:22 AM CDT, Ken Harstine <kharstin@...> wrote:


Your frogs and short circuit protection devices should be located in the wiring between your track detectors and you DCC track power.  In this way they do not see the supply current.  Not detecting on the frogs will not adversely effect your signals because the track section not detected is minuscule.

Ken Harstine
413-250-8298






Re: Block detection, Frog juicers and Circuit Breakers.

 

Your frogs and short circuit protection devices should be located in the wiring between your track detectors and you DCC track power. In this way they do not see the supply current. Not detecting on the frogs will not adversely effect your signals because the track section not detected is minuscule.

Ken Harstine
413-250-8298


Re: Block detection, Frog juicers and Circuit Breakers.

Allan AE2V
 

Hi Perry,

I'm glad to know people are reading my column.  Sorry if the September column ruined your day.

As far as using the Atlas signal system, I am not an expert on it's use.  I just read up on it for another reader.  (See the Nov. 2021 Model Railroader for my latest column.)  As long as you are not using DCC track power after a block detector, I think you will be able to use it.

As far as block detection and using things like the PSX, PSX-AR, and Frog Juicers (I think that is what you meant by Frog-AR), ANY electronic device placed after a block detector will likely cause it to report a track occupied signal.

Now what?  If you want to use Frog Juicers, you can success by placing the block detection on the output (frog) wire of the Frog Juicer.  If you want to use the PSX and PSX-AR's, you will need to put the block detector after it.

Some time in 2022 I will probably be writing about using a block detector and feeders.  ALL feeders to a given block must be tied together - to a sub bus or whatever - and then that sub bus must be attached to the output of the block detector.  A block detector cannot be tied to a single feeder of a multi feeder section of track and be expected to work if the other feeders bypass the block detector.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Block detection, Frog juicers and Circuit Breakers.

Perry A Pollino
 

I just read Allan's column in MRR sept. I am gald I did. What  blow to my plans. Now I have a cunundrum. I have laid all my track.
I am using DCC specialties PSX, PSX-AR and Frog -ARs. I also planned to use the Atlas signal system. I have actually purchased all the parts. I set up a test trac and and tested the system and liked it for what I need. But Now am reading I wont be able to use it as planned.
My test track did not have any of the above mentioned boards or devices. so I had no problems. In Allan's column he mentions how these boards will use current that willand cause block detection to be detected.
Did I understand that correctly?
So basically my plan to use block detection with the Atlas system has to be scrapped and I need to find another type of detection.
I can wire the Frod to the tortoise but I am not sure what to do about short curcuit protection?
Perry


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

Dave Hamernik
 

Thanks. 
--
Dave
Portland, OR


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

D B
 

Dave, 
That’s correct, but only if the programming track is isolated from the rest of the layout — which is the answer to the question you asked. 
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Oct 6, 2021, at 10:40 PM, Dave Hamernik <jibebuoy13@...> wrote:

I can buy that John.  Don't need to be a victim of Murphys Law. Thank you. 
--
Dave
Portland, OR


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

Dave Hamernik
 

I can buy that John.  Don't need to be a victim of Murphys Law. Thank you. 
--
Dave
Portland, OR


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

John Bauchiero
 

Dave, 

The isolation track is to protect the main track from being powered by the program track, IF the loco being programmed wanders toward the main and shorts across the track boundary insulators. Some locos move substantially when programmed. 

John

On Oct 6, 2021, at 9:06 PM, Dave Hamernik <jibebuoy13@...> wrote:

Hi Bill. But I thought that was the purpose of the auto switch. It senses that you are programming so it de-energizes the main and only programs the program track. If I had 3 locos on the main it shouldn't matter since the autoswitch de-energized the main. Right? (https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-accessories/nce-autoswitch)

Btw, if anyone is wondering where the one line diagram is that I am referring to, it is in part 2 of Track Wiring on Alan's web page ( https://wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm). The one lines are at the very, very end. I am looking at schematic ncedcc4. 

Thank you. 
--
Dave
Portland, OR


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

Dave Hamernik
 

Hi Bill. But I thought that was the purpose of the auto switch. It senses that you are programming so it de-energizes the main and only programs the program track. If I had 3 locos on the main it shouldn't matter since the autoswitch de-energized the main. Right? (https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-accessories/nce-autoswitch)

Btw, if anyone is wondering where the one line diagram is that I am referring to, it is in part 2 of Track Wiring on Alan's web page ( https://wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm). The one lines are at the very, very end. I am looking at schematic ncedcc4. 

Thank you. 
--
Dave
Portland, OR


Re: NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

D B
 

Dave, 
As I understand it, you don’t need an isolated program track IF the only Loco on your layout is the one you want to program.  Without isolation every Loco will be programmed.  By isolating the program track, the programming signals are sent only to the Loco on the programming track.  And by by-passing the “programming-out” terminals on the auto-switch, you can use the program track to run trains when not in program mode. 
Bill D
N&W Steam Only


On Oct 6, 2021, at 7:43 PM, Dave Hamernik <jibebuoy13@...> wrote:

Hi - On this one-line diagram Jim shows the autoswitch wired to a programming track with an isolation track. I understand that the purpose of the isolation track is to keep you from accidentally driving your loco on to the Layout which would cause issues. Here's my question: isn't the isolation track redundant in this case? The purpose of the auto switch is to detect programming data being sent from the power cab and subsequently killing power to the main. If there is no power to the main then why do you need an isolation track?

Im sure im missing something just like to know what it is. 

Thanks. 
--
Dave

Portland, OR


NCE auto switch Jim Exler Schematic # NCEDCC4 Question

Dave Hamernik
 

Hi - On this one-line diagram Jim shows the autoswitch wired to a programming track with an isolation track. I understand that the purpose of the isolation track is to keep you from accidentally driving your loco on to the Layout which would cause issues. Here's my question: isn't the isolation track redundant in this case? The purpose of the auto switch is to detect programming data being sent from the power cab and subsequently killing power to the main. If there is no power to the main then why do you need an isolation track?

Im sure im missing something just like to know what it is. 

Thanks. 
--
Dave

Portland, OR


Re: BD20 and Reverse Loop

Tom Grassi
 

Don,

Update

I now have it working I removed the extra feeders from both side of the loop and now my AIU-01 is showing a LED as On when the train enter the block.

All good now 

Thanks

Tom
--
Tom Grassi
trgrassijr@...


Photo Notifications #photo-notice

w4dccqa@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

Tom Grassi <trgrassijr@...> added the album BD20 Reverse Loop: Need help with wiring a Reverse Loop for block detection


The following photos have been uploaded to the BD20 Reverse Loop album of the w4dccqa@groups.io group.

By: Tom Grassi <trgrassijr@...>


Added Folder /BD20 Reverse Loop #file-notice

w4dccqa@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

Tom Grassi <trgrassijr@...> added folder /BD20 Reverse Loop


Re: BD20 and Reverse Loop

Tom Grassi
 
Edited


Don

Sorry the image disappeared I will place the image in the upload section and post the link

The photo is here

w4dccqa@groups.io | Album

Can you tell me if I have this correct?

When I train is in block 2 near the green mark I have no block detection there only when close to the BD20

another feeder and loop that thru same BD20 or another BD20 and feeder this loop section is little over 6 six feet long

Any ideas  
Thanks

Tom Grassi
trgrassijr@...


Re: BD20 and Reverse Loop

Don Vollrath
 

Tom, the AR controller still needs to be wired from the main DCC bus and all track feeders inside the AR section(s). Each new BD20 needs to monitor all track current to one of the rails Inside the new signal block. Cut a gap in the rail as desired to create the new signal blocks inside the AR section. Pass the track feeders for the isolated rail of each new signal block through a BD20, and back to, or fed from the output of the existing AR controller. The fact that the DCC signal through the BD20 flips phasing/polarity of track power from the AR controller makes no difference.

DonV


BD20 and Reverse Loop

Tom Grassi
 

Hello All

I have a reverse Loop and I setup two blocks in the Loop for signaling 
All trains can run in either direction thru the loop with now problem.

Today on the two feeders I connected my NCE BD20's to my NCE AIU-01

I was trying to setup the turnout also with another pair of BD20's  So when I did that I put a cut in one of the rails and ran a feeder down thru the BD20 and connected to my DCC Track Bus Line.

When I put the cut in the rail I had to add an additional pair of feeders just pass the cut so that the rails would have current.
 
That all worked  until today.  When I connected the BD20 to the AIU-01 I lost power to the Loop only has 2.3 volts.

after some time I decided to remove the extra feeders from the equation   So now I only have two wires for each feeder to the BD20.
Still no power 

So I removed the BD20's from the AIU-01 and still had no power 

I then Added back the extra feeders to the terminal block that connects to the AR Device  A Dual Frog Juicer by Tam Valley

So the question I have is

How to you wire a reverse loop so I can have block detection/

Hope someone has a diagram  or suggestions

Thank you

Tom









--
Tom Grassi
trgrassijr@...


Re: Seeking reversing section input

Nick Ostrosky
 

A final thanks to everyone that has provided feedback.  It is much appreciated and at this point I feel I have sufficient information to move forward.

Nick


Re: Seeking reversing section input

Don Weigt
 

While there are many tracks, if you print out the track plan and look at it carefully, you'll see it comes down to a mainline oval, with a yard connected as a wye at F, with multiple tracks for each leg of the wye, a branch line to Dubois off it, and a reversing loop through the yard connecting back to the mainline at Westfield..

Usual practice would be to wire the whole mainline for fixed phase power, and switch the phase of the wye. But, in this case, there could be more trains running in the yard and the branch line than the mainline. Autoreversing is triggered by an overload, or "short", and with multiple trains on the reversing section, that short circuit current limit might need to be very high to prevent nuisance tripping. That's why I suggested wiring only part of the mainline for autoreversing. And, only the connections at the ends of the minimum reversing section ever need to switch phases.

Where the yard crosses over the mainline at B will require a well isolated crossing if it's at grade. The drawing suggests to me that the yard track crosses above the mainline, which would be an interesting feature.

It has been mentioned that care will be needed to prevent  running trains across multiple reversing connections a the same time. That isn't new or unique: it's true of every reversing connection, whether a loop or a wye.





--
Don Weigt
Connecticut

561 - 580 of 13591