Date   

Need advice on wiring a cross-over and wye junction

David Penty
 
Edited

Hello all

I’m new to the forum and still reading my way through Allan Gartner’s Wiring for DCC documents – excellent material.  However, I’m looking for some specific guidance

 

At the end of my mainline, I’ve re-laid track.  In the attached diagram, the turntable was pre-existing, but all turnouts and crossover are new.  I’m not certain if an auto reverser is needed and if so, where it would be located.  Can someone give me an idea of track wiring for the layout.    Peco suggest, on the package, that insulating all ends of the crossover shouldn’t be needed but then provide an example of how to insulate the crossover on all sides. 

I’m running Digitrax, Code 100 HO with Peco turnouts.


I've uploaded a schematic of the track layout under Files.  Image is called 'Peco Crossover wiring issue.jpg'

 

 

David G. Penty

Penty Photographic Services

myflyanddrive.com

davidpenty@...

(416) 574-4557 ( C )

(519) 855-6961 (R)

 


Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog

Tom O'Hara
 

Hi Jim,

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said. If the Tortoise and AR work without keep-alive devices, they'll work with. The energy storage works for the engine but doesn't have any effect on the polarity of what the engine "sees". That comes strictly from the track, which is handled by the KA device or Tortoise. I've had KAs since they came out and never had any problems with my reversing circuits.

....Tom

On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 6:45 AM Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:
Dale,
  Your methods are like mine.  I make the turnout for a return loop in
the same electrical block as the approach.  I suspect, since I'm 
using Tortoises, that having the PSX-AR throw the turnout would
not be 'fast enough to matter' ... most of my locos have keep alives
in them and so I pretty much have to make sure the turnout is
properly aligned before I start into it.  Probably the only important
drawback to a keep alive ... but I'm willing to deal with that simply
because the advantages out weigh it.  Plus my philosophy is
"if you are running turnouts - you're not paying attention".  *G*
                                                                                                     - Jim
                                                                                - Jim


Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog

Jim Betz
 

Dale,
  Your methods are like mine.  I make the turnout for a return loop in
the same electrical block as the approach.  I suspect, since I'm 
using Tortoises, that having the PSX-AR throw the turnout would
not be 'fast enough to matter' ... most of my locos have keep alives
in them and so I pretty much have to make sure the turnout is
properly aligned before I start into it.  Probably the only important
drawback to a keep alive ... but I'm willing to deal with that simply
because the advantages out weigh it.  Plus my philosophy is
"if you are running turnouts - you're not paying attention".  *G*
                                                                                                     - Jim
                                                                                - Jim


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Dale Muir
 

Hi JT,

 

Thanks for the note. I hope that helps. DCC is more sensitive to brief power interruptions. A brief DC power interruption might manifest as a small jerk that may go unnoticed. Same with very brief shorts.

Dale

 

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> On Behalf Of John White
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 3:59 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] It shouldn't be doing this.

 

Hi Dale Muir
Thanks for offering up your idea on how you fixed your contact issue. I will have to remember that, as I have to figure out what it is about those trucks and why they worked just fine as DC but not DCC. It's really frustrating that it works one way and not the other. But then we are talking about DCC. Anyway thanks for your thoughts on this. It works like it should now and I haven't taken time to go back at it, with six acres to tend to, with trees down or partly down, from this past winter and moving things around for a big yard sale. You know how that is. Oh and the honey do list.
Enjoy your spring,
JT


Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog

Dale Muir
 

I use Tortoise contacts for frog polarity and DCC Specialties PSX-AR to control polarity of return loops. I keep the frog polarity completely independent of the return loop polarity and I have never had an issue. I have not experimented with having the AR unit throw the return loop turnout automatically.


Re: AR Vs Tortoise to power frog

Tim
 

I always use switch machine contacts to control frog polarity on turnouts and haven't had an issue. On my layout I mostly use Bluepoint machines, but Tortoises work the same way.

I also use DPDT relays controlled by switch machine contacts for reverse loop polarity. I don't plan on ever having any AR circuits on my layout ever, at any time, or in any location.

Tim


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

John White
 

Hi Dale Muir
Thanks for offering up your idea on how you fixed your contact issue. I will have to remember that, as I have to figure out what it is about those trucks and why they worked just fine as DC but not DCC. It's really frustrating that it works one way and not the other. But then we are talking about DCC. Anyway thanks for your thoughts on this. It works like it should now and I haven't taken time to go back at it, with six acres to tend to, with trees down or partly down, from this past winter and moving things around for a big yard sale. You know how that is. Oh and the honey do list.
Enjoy your spring,
JT


AR Vs Tortoise to power frog

Perry A Pollino
 

I posted a problem I was having with Locos stalling on turnouts, in particular a cross over.
After a lot of trouble shooting I discovered the AR does not always swicth the polarity when the switch moves. 
I am considering scrapping the AR's and using the Tortoise machines to swicth polarity.
Wondering if anyone has any advise as in does and Don'ts. I am N scale and using Barrett Hill Touch Toggles and thier tortoise adapters. 
Thanks
Perry 


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

John White
 

Thanks Dale,
Not sure what is going on with the trucks, but switched them out for another truck and it is fine now. But I plan to, will dig into the old truck and find out. Never had this happen before, so I want to know. It may take me some time, but I will do this.
JT


Re: Cross over stalling

Perry A Pollino
 

Don,
Thanks for the reply. 
I have not heard of the punch idea. May be worth a try. 
I have my RR broken into power districts protected by DCC Specialties PSX boards. 
They are not indicating a short. at any time. unless I intentionally throw against the movement which I did on purpose to test the PSX.
These turnouts (cross over) are actually at the divide point of two districts the roundhouse and my yard. So yes, insulated joints are present. I had just finished installing my TT this weekend. This was first loco out of the TT district. All testing up to this point was with my RR Ampmeter. I had voltage. 
Yes, I have good pressure on the points from the Tortoise.
I have power to every frog, and rails on each turnout. Every section of track has its own power drop. 
Perry

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 08:50:53 AM CDT, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:


Perry, are you sure you are not causing track short circuits by out of sequence movements of the throw bars and points between turnouts? Any insulated joints between turnouts? carefully look at the point on the point rails. Ensure that there is a tiny pointed end where it touches the stock rail. This is where current to the point rail and frog is being picked up  or lost.  Ensure the linkage to control the throw bar puts adequate pressure to force the point rail to touch the stock rail. Be sure there are no vertical bumps in the rails to lift loco wheels off the rails as a loco rolls through.  Adding jumper wires at this time will be tricky but may be necessary. Tighten up any swivel joints with a center punch. Adding conductalube may help.

DonV





Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Don Vollrath
 

Dale, thanks for providing your solution. The title of this thread is correct. Poor design by Athearn.


DonV


Re: Cross over stalling

Don Vollrath
 

Perry, are you sure you are not causing track short circuits by out of sequence movements of the throw bars and points between turnouts? Any insulated joints between turnouts? carefully look at the point on the point rails. Ensure that there is a tiny pointed end where it touches the stock rail. This is where current to the point rail and frog is being picked up or lost. Ensure the linkage to control the throw bar puts adequate pressure to force the point rail to touch the stock rail. Be sure there are no vertical bumps in the rails to lift loco wheels off the rails as a loco rolls through. Adding jumper wires at this time will be tricky but may be necessary. Tighten up any swivel joints with a center punch. Adding conductalube may help.

DonV


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Dale Muir
 

Hi John. I'm glad you finally found a solution. Here is another issue that no one mentioned so far:

A few years ago I acquired several Athearn Genesis F3 and F7 units. As I converted them to DCC I programmed in momentum. I hard-wired the decoders so there was no issue with plugs or connectors. I also soldered the decoder leads directly to the trucks. They kept momentarily cutting out, and cycling through the startup sequence. Athearn sent replacement trucks, but they didn't help. The problem was with the truck design. The "wipers" that rest on the axles were not making good contact even after cleaning. I added tiny phosphor bronze wires that contact the wheel treads, and that solved the problem. The phosphor bronze wires were soldered to the brass truck parts meant to pick up current from the axles. This was tricky, and I used a resistance soldering unit and the resistance tweezers to hold the parts together while soldering.

Dale Muir
Geneva, IL


Re: Wiring Advice Needed

Tim
 

Flex track has a tendency for the rail to creep, some more than others. Filling the gap will insure that it stays a gap.

Tim Rumph
Lancaster, SC


Cross over stalling

Perry A Pollino
 

Folks,
I have have  a cross over using Peco electro frog turnouts in N scale. I am running DCC. I have DCC specialties Frog AR controlling power to all my frogs. I use Tortoise switch machines for movement of the points. I am not using Tortoise contacts to power the track in any way.
Yesterday for the first time I tried to run a loco through this cross over. It stalled in the same place in either direction. My RRamp meter shows I have voltage in all portions of the crossover. Even the points. Yet I stall every time.
I have another crossover  on my main line I also have occasional issues with. usually a cleaning will help that one. So I am perplexed.
The only different is the control of each of these. The crossover on the main line both points move with one switch. The other has a switch for each point. 
So I have some questions to help me trouble shoot. I have test leads plugged into my RRamp meter. But it occured to me  I may still be putting enough pleasure on the points to get a good read, yet the locomotive is not creating the pressure. I did try putting pleasure on the loco where it stalled with no success.

I am now regretting not putting jumper wires to all my point rails before mounting them.
I am not about to pull up over 60 turnouts to do this.
So here are my questions:
Has anybody used cunductalube to improve turnout point conductivity at the hinge portion with success? 
Someone I meet at a train show some time ago suggested putting Solder at the hinge as well or small jumper wire. That seems very tricky. However if anyone has experience with this, or other suggestions for improving point conductivity on turnouts that are in place I am  open to suggestions.
Thanks Perry 


Wiring Terminal Article

Carl
 

Hi Gang:

Model Railroad Hobbyist published my article on PVC terminal strips:

https://online.fliphtml5.com/buups/ksic/index.html#p=59

In the comments there is a picture of an easy to do DCC snubber.

Hope you enjoy it and find it useful.

Carl.


Re: Wiring Advice Needed

monty cunningham
 

Just asking, if you use a thin Dremel disk do you necessarily need to fill the gap?


Re: Wiring Advice Needed

Blair
 

Alan

Cut (using Dremel disk or jewelers saw)  through the rail(s) at the desired location, fill the new gap with a bit of styrene glued in (I use epoxy, others use ACC), file smooth the rail head if the styrene protrudes, then paint the rail.  Optionally, use some scenic element to mark where the gap is, because if you do this carefully, it'll be hard to find...

Blair

On 2021-04-19 7:40, alynmar@... wrote:
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to add an isolated section to existing track without having to rip it up and put in insulated rail joiners?  I made a big mistake and forgot to put them in at the end of one power district.

Thanks - Alan


Wiring Advice Needed

alynmar@...
 

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to add an isolated section to existing track without having to rip it up and put in insulated rail joiners?  I made a big mistake and forgot to put them in at the end of one power district.

Thanks - Alan


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

John White
 


 Well went to the basement to fiddle with the engine. I GOT IT!!!

I changed out the front truck, which I thought it was the culprit for sometime, but couldn't figure how that could be a problem. After I changed it I ran it for roughly 15 or 20 minutes with no pauses or stopping. So now I have to figure out what is going on with it. Thanks for all the support.

JT

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