Date   

Re: What is a "throat controlled relay"

Blair
 

Greg

As I see it, that's a DPDT toggle switch, or a slider, the output from it is used to both control the Tortoise and the track polarity.  "SV #1" is probably "SW #1", i.e. switch number 1.

Although, it could just as easily be a DPDT relay controlled by an automation system.
Blair


Re: Walthers switch 942-101 and NCE PowerPro

ryan_henry@...
 

John thank you for the input.  I have been using JMRI also and that has been an issue for me too. If a switch has been thrown from fascia since the last JMRI switch command I don't have an accurate panel view of the route. I feel like I need to choose one method exclusively for switch control, only fascia, only DCC cab, or only JMRI to reduce my chances of putting a train where I didn't intend for it to go. Maybe using the other indication options to a central local control panel would be way to go also.

Open to other options, switch types, or general suggestions.

Thanks everyone,
Ryan 


Re: What is a "throat controlled relay"

wirefordcc
 

Hi Tim,

A throat controlled relay is one that is activated by a turnout that is at the throat of a balloon track.  I used them to reverse the polarity of the balloon track depending on which way the turnout is thrown.  For examples, go to my website at:  https://wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#a46

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC


Re: What is a "throat controlled relay"

Paul O <pomilian@...>
 

Tim, can you supply a little more context as to where this phrase was used?

Paul O

On Apr 10, 2021, at 1:46 PM, Tim Tedrow via groups.io <Black_dog_42000@...> wrote:

What is a "throat controlled relay"?
Who makes them?

Thanks,
Tim


What is a "throat controlled relay"

Tim Tedrow
 

What is a "throat controlled relay"?
Who makes them?

Thanks,
Tim


Re: Wye Track Reverser

Aaron Splawn
 

Thanks for the quick response Don!  I moved the gaps closer to the turnouts without any problems and everything seems to be working great.  I also tried moving one set outside the turnout, but immediately had a shorting problem; however, the end of the reversing track flows directly into a small switching yard, and then into a balloon loop, so it didn't surprise me. 

Anyhow, now I can pull a normal size narrow gauge train around the layout and through the wye without any issues...

Thanks for the help!  Hopefully it will help another member as well.

Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca.)


Re: Wye Track Reverser

Don Vollrath
 

Aaron, one other thought. You might be able to gain some improvement by making sure your isolating gaps are filled so that steel wheels do not fall into the gap and touch both sides of the gaps at each end of the AR section at the same time. If the frog connection of your turnouts include a lengthy section of frog “exit” cut another gap and make a short section of fixed rail polarity to separate the frog juicer power from that of the AR section. Only a couple of inches of fixed polarity is required.


DonV


Re: Wye Track Reverser

Don Vollrath
 

Aaron, you have bumped into the problem of the AR section shorter than the train, and next...the issue of two AR controllers adjacent at the same isolation gap. (Yes a frog juicer is essentially an AR controller) Take another look at your track diagram to find a way to include a longer stretch of track to be the AR section, possibly including one of the turnouts. Then use a different method of selectively powering that frog using contacts from the turnout motor or a relay instead of a frog juicer.

DonV


Re: DCC Specialties PSX-AR

Aaron Splawn
 

William, 

I just dealt with something similar installing an AR on my Sn3 layout.  First I tried a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer, and then I bought the PSX-AR.  Both of them malfunctioned by causing a complete short when crossing into the isolated reversing area.  After losing a bunch of sleep and pulling out all my hair, I discovered one of the wye frogs was wired incorrectly.  Once I corrected this it worked perfectly with a single loco.  So good that I tried the Frog Juicer again and it also worked perfectly with a single loco.  However, once I started running trains (anything more than 4 cars) it suddenly started doing exactly what you're describing as the train spanned the isolated reversing portion of the wye.  I've discovered the isolated reversing gaps are too close together and when any additional cars are outside the isolated area it shorts momentarily until the last cars passes the gap on the other side.  All of my cars have metal wheels and I only run small trains, however, I'd like to run a little bit more than a 4 car train.  This led to the question I posted to the group last night about how close the isolation gaps can be moved towards the turnouts without causing a different problem when a loco or cars are running over the reversing gaps and turnout frogs at the same time. 

Hopefully this helps narrow down your problem.  I know exactly how frustrated you feel...!

Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca. )


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

John White
 

Didn't think about including this. The trucks are like the Athearn Blue Box trucks that has the frame pin and the tab that sticks up by the drive shaft. So it don't have the wheel wipers. That's the reason I soldered the wires to the trucks. It also has the same motor as the Blue Box and it is isolated the same way as Athearn. The frame may be the very same, but I haven't compared it with the Blue Box, but I will.
Thanks Andrew.
JT


Wye Track Reverser

Aaron Splawn
 

Greetings all!  

How close can reversing gaps be to the turnout frogs without causing a malfunction?  I'm building a small Sn3 layout and just added a wye.  I used a Tam Valley Dual Frog Juicer as an auto reverser and it seems to be working great; however, I've now discovered my gaps in the reversing track section are too close together to accommodate anymore than a three car train.  I can move the gaps further apart, but I'm afraid they will be too close to the turnouts and will cause confusion when the loco rolls over the frog, and then the isolation gap shortly after.  The turnouts are Fast Track and the frogs are controlled by a Tam Valley Hex Juicer.   Any answers and ideas would be greatly appreciated...

Thanks, Aaron Splawn (Roseville, Ca.)   


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Paul O <pomilian@...>
 

John, to diagnose wheel pick up problems, take a piece of tissue paper, make it wide enough to isolate one whole truck, place it across the tracks and run your local over it. See if you can determine which of the trucks or axles may be causing a problem.

Paul O


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Michael Munley
 

I had identical symptoms.  Turned out to be the decoder plug was not seated in the decoder.  Digitrax in particular shrink-wrap the decoder.  The blue wrap can sometimes block the proper function of plugging into the socket.  As the loco goes around the curve, the truck wires "tug" lightly on the decoder and pull out the plug slightly.  Give it a check.  Easy to do without a tear-down.


. So, I just touch it as in nugging it very very lightly. I don't hardly even touch it and it resumes running until the next spot it decides to do it again. It did do this four or five times in one complete run. I kept messing, trying to figure it out and with each try, it did get better to the point of only hesitating two or three times but keeps going. I filed, lightly, the frame so the trucks didn't touch the inside of the opening for the trucks. I also added tape on the same area, but it don't seem to have helped. I made some of the changes to the frame tonight with minor improvements. I also put another exact type of drive powered locomotive and it runs very well, with no issues. So I am totally lost as to what could be causing this problem. I'm not stupid, but this one makes me feel that way an



-----Original Message-----
From: John Bauchiero <john@...>
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Apr 8, 2021 10:03 am
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] It shouldn't be doing this.

JT, 

I don’t know if your issue could be related to what I am experiencing. I have a Walthers PA-1 that has developed a left side wiper problem on the front truck and depending on how the wheels bias side to side in the truck on a curve or turnout will cause the locomotive stop. I found that only one wheel was making contact most of the time and if it shifted side to side it could lose contact momentarily. I really don’t want to get into a total teardown of the drive system so I am avoiding it for now. 

John 

On Apr 7, 2021, at 10:01 PM, John White <jtw37@...> wrote:

I have to apologize cause this is a bit long, but here goes.
So, here is my multi attempt frustration. I just recently purchased a used Proto 2000 GP30 DC locomotive. Nothing wrong with it running. It ran fine. With me converting to DCC a few years ago, I was definitely converting this one. I'm not a newby to converting DC over to DCC. I've got roughly 100 conversions (give or take) to my credit. So it's not like I don't know how to do this. So I converted it and the problems started. I've used Digitrax and NCE basic decoders, so I think that eliminates decoder problems. I soldered the red and black wires to the trucks, as I've done many times before for good contact. The gray to the bottom connection of the motor and the orange to the top. Everything wired like I've done many, many times with no issues. No wires pinched or anything to make it have a problem down the road. I did have to replace two axle gears making sure no contact between the axles. With all that said, here is what I've been dealing with for the last month. Yea, I said month. Mostly to get away from it and the frustration and dive back in.
 
So here is what I'm dealing with. When I run it on my layout from right to left, it wants to stop or at least pause in or out of the curves, but not always. But that is only once in awhile, cause most of the tie it will stop. So, I just touch it as in nugging it very very lightly. I don't hardly even touch it and it resumes running until the next spot it decides to do it again. It did do this four or five times in one complete run. I kept messing, trying to figure it out and with each try, it did get better to the point of only hesitating two or three times but keeps going. I filed, lightly, the frame so the trucks didn't touch the inside of the opening for the trucks. I also added tape on the same area, but it don't seem to have helped. I made some of the changes to the frame tonight with minor improvements. I also put another exact type of drive powered locomotive and it runs very well, with no issues. So I am totally lost as to what could be causing this problem. I'm not stupid, but this one makes me feel that way and I know better. I just can't figure it out. Also, my track is fine as nothing else does this.
 
Think this one over and see if you can help me solve this problem, that shouldn't be this complicated.
Thanks for reading,
JT


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Puckdropper
 

Tricky! I think I'd just replace all the axle gears to be sure they're OK. I've seen them slide sideways after the gear cracked. You may be able to confirm this with the NMRA gauge, gauge too narrow is probably the one causing the problem.

These GP30s disassemble pretty nicely, so if I didn't see anything else, I'd take it apart and clean and resolder everything.

Are you seeing a stall or a short?

Puckdropper


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

thomasmclae
 

A couple of things our club has found over the years, now standard practice for all club members to do to their Loks.
1. set CV11 = 0. This is the timeout timer, depending on your system, how many addresses are in the refresh list, etc. Just set to 0.
2. turn off DC. Bit flag in CV29, lets your Lok run on DC layout power. Some systems will trick your Lok into thinking power is DC, then revert to DCC, then dc. Random pauses. Only enable this before going to a DC layout, Otherwise, turn off.
This eliminates most decoder issues.

Check that your solder joints are not cold joints. Always use flux when soldering, even if the solder says it has flux. (NOT ACID FLUX!!!)


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

john
 

John,
I have found in the past that some engines will not tolerate a rise and some not a dip in the rails. It isn't uncommon were road bed pieces are joined. The other thing that is not uncommon is electrical pickup. Solder a wire to every piece of rail within three feet of the problem area, be it an inch or a meter, and connect them to the feed. Rail Joiners are notorious for bad connections.
John

On Thursday, April 8, 2021, 10:29:05 AM EDT, Jim Betz <jimbetz@...> wrote:


John,
  You don't mention it so I have to ask ... have you determined if the problem is
an Open or a Short?
  P2K locos are notorious for 2 problems.

  1) Split axle gears - will usually "thump, thump, thump" going down the track. 
      Sometimes will stop and start.
  2) Incorrectly shimmed worm gears.  Pull that plastic "clip thingey" that holds
      the worm gear in the top of the truck.  Shim one end until it smooths out.
      Most often will show up going down grade with a load behind it - often
      will not show up without a train behind it or on level track (but sometimes).
      This problem is often referred to as "surging" because the train may or
      may not fully stop going downhill.

  Power pickup - perhaps a wire is broken inside the insulation and is making
and not making contact.  Try running the loco with it's progress blocked and
see if you can measure the power to the motor from the decoder.

  I've had P2K locos that ran very poorly - until I cleaned out all of the old
grease in the trucks with isopropyl and re-lubed with Labelle (plastic
compatible - 104?)
  The backs of the wheels can get crud build up on them - clean with isopropyl.

                            - Keep us informed ... JIm


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Jim Betz
 

John,
  You don't mention it so I have to ask ... have you determined if the problem is
an Open or a Short?
  P2K locos are notorious for 2 problems.

  1) Split axle gears - will usually "thump, thump, thump" going down the track. 
      Sometimes will stop and start.
  2) Incorrectly shimmed worm gears.  Pull that plastic "clip thingey" that holds
      the worm gear in the top of the truck.  Shim one end until it smooths out.
      Most often will show up going down grade with a load behind it - often
      will not show up without a train behind it or on level track (but sometimes).
      This problem is often referred to as "surging" because the train may or
      may not fully stop going downhill.

  Power pickup - perhaps a wire is broken inside the insulation and is making
and not making contact.  Try running the loco with it's progress blocked and
see if you can measure the power to the motor from the decoder.

  I've had P2K locos that ran very poorly - until I cleaned out all of the old
grease in the trucks with isopropyl and re-lubed with Labelle (plastic
compatible - 104?)
  The backs of the wheels can get crud build up on them - clean with isopropyl.

                            - Keep us informed ... JIm


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

John Bauchiero
 

JT, 

I don’t know if your issue could be related to what I am experiencing. I have a Walthers PA-1 that has developed a left side wiper problem on the front truck and depending on how the wheels bias side to side in the truck on a curve or turnout will cause the locomotive stop. I found that only one wheel was making contact most of the time and if it shifted side to side it could lose contact momentarily. I really don’t want to get into a total teardown of the drive system so I am avoiding it for now. 

John 

On Apr 7, 2021, at 10:01 PM, John White <jtw37@...> wrote:

I have to apologize cause this is a bit long, but here goes.

So, here is my multi attempt frustration. I just recently purchased a used Proto 2000 GP30 DC locomotive. Nothing wrong with it running. It ran fine. With me converting to DCC a few years ago, I was definitely converting this one. I'm not a newby to converting DC over to DCC. I've got roughly 100 conversions (give or take) to my credit. So it's not like I don't know how to do this. So I converted it and the problems started. I've used Digitrax and NCE basic decoders, so I think that eliminates decoder problems. I soldered the red and black wires to the trucks, as I've done many times before for good contact. The gray to the bottom connection of the motor and the orange to the top. Everything wired like I've done many, many times with no issues. No wires pinched or anything to make it have a problem down the road. I did have to replace two axle gears making sure no contact between the axles. With all that said, here is what I've been dealing with for the last month. Yea, I said month. Mostly to get away from it and the frustration and dive back in.

 

So here is what I'm dealing with. When I run it on my layout from right to left, it wants to stop or at least pause in or out of the curves, but not always. But that is only once in awhile, cause most of the tie it will stop. So, I just touch it as in nugging it very very lightly. I don't hardly even touch it and it resumes running until the next spot it decides to do it again. It did do this four or five times in one complete run. I kept messing, trying to figure it out and with each try, it did get better to the point of only hesitating two or three times but keeps going. I filed, lightly, the frame so the trucks didn't touch the inside of the opening for the trucks. I also added tape on the same area, but it don't seem to have helped. I made some of the changes to the frame tonight with minor improvements. I also put another exact type of drive powered locomotive and it runs very well, with no issues. So I am totally lost as to what could be causing this problem. I'm not stupid, but this one makes me feel that way and I know better. I just can't figure it out. Also, my track is fine as nothing else does this.

 

Think this one over and see if you can help me solve this problem, that shouldn't be this complicated.

Thanks for reading,

JT



Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Don Vollrath
 

JT, it is indeed a puzzle. if the headlight also blinks when the loco hesitates or stalls the problem
is definitely a loss of rail power getting to the decoder. Make sure you have continuity from both front and rear trucks on each of the red and black power pickup wires. Look for broken wire strands or replace with new flexible #22 - 24 wires. Disassemble the trucks and clean the bearings and power pickup saddles. Lube the bearings lightly with conductive oil. Solder the red and black wires to the decoder. Do NOT use the plastic saddle clips. (Or if you must... be sure to scrape the copper pads clean)

Also be sure the trucks can swivel without causing the wheels to lift. Particularly important if this model uses a hot chassis for one side of the power pickup. Remove any grease buildup at the truck-chassis swivel joints.

DonV


Re: It shouldn't be doing this.

Blair
 

John

Two thoughts on this.

1) I have a p2K SW8 that was giving me fits with stop-start issues.  Turned out one lead from one truck was broken, so it was running on only one truck's connections on the left side.  That made it sensitive to track dirt, etc.  Could you have a bad truck connection, whether it be a cold solder joint, or a bad/dirty wiper?  The fact that it's unidirectional doesn't really fit this possibility, though.

2) Your unidirectional symptom reminds me of a P2K GP7 loco I finally tore down last month.  Not absolutely sure what fixed it, but complete disassembly of the power train to both trucks, disassembly of both trucks, cleaning all parts, and reassembly seems to have pushed the troll back under the bridge.  Oh, and I shimmed the motor-shaft-to-truck worm gear (both ends) so it didn't slop back and forth on direction change.  I had initially presumed I had a cracked axle gear, as that problem exhibits this way some times, but unless it was microscopic all gears were good, and I took a chance and re-used them and it runs fine now.  Your unidirectional problem, linked with the problem appearing at turns, makes me think mechanical binding, so this could be it.

Hope this helps

Blair


I have to apologize cause this is a bit long, but here goes.

So, here is my multi attempt frustration. I just recently purchased a used Proto 2000 GP30 DC locomotive. Nothing wrong with it running. It ran fine. With me converting to DCC a few years ago, I was definitely converting this one. I'm not a newby to converting DC over to DCC. I've got roughly 100 conversions (give or take) to my credit. So it's not like I don't know how to do this. So I converted it and the problems started. I've used Digitrax and NCE basic decoders, so I think that eliminates decoder problems. I soldered the red and black wires to the trucks, as I've done many times before for good contact. The gray to the bottom connection of the motor and the orange to the top. Everything wired like I've done many, many times with no issues. No wires pinched or anything to make it have a problem down the road. I did have to replace two axle gears making sure no contact between the axles. With all that said, here is what I've been dealing with for the last month. Yea, I said month. Mostly to get away from it and the frustration and dive back in.

 

So here is what I'm dealing with. When I run it on my layout from right to left, it wants to stop or at least pause in or out of the curves, but not always. But that is only once in awhile, cause most of the tie it will stop. So, I just touch it as in nugging it very very lightly. I don't hardly even touch it and it resumes running until the next spot it decides to do it again. It did do this four or five times in one complete run. I kept messing, trying to figure it out and with each try, it did get better to the point of only hesitating two or three times but keeps going. I filed, lightly, the frame so the trucks didn't touch the inside of the opening for the trucks. I also added tape on the same area, but it don't seem to have helped. I made some of the changes to the frame tonight with minor improvements. I also put another exact type of drive powered locomotive and it runs very well, with no issues. So I am totally lost as to what could be causing this problem. I'm not stupid, but this one makes me feel that way and I know better. I just can't figure it out. Also, my track is fine as nothing else does this.

 


541 - 560 of 13081