Date   
Re: Differentiating bus wires?

John Melvin
 

Dave,

I've been using a Brother tape printer for years. I use black ink and 3/8" white tape. I print a wire number, function or accessory name on about 2-4 inches of tape and wrap it around the wire at both ends and a couple in the wire run depending on length.

John
El Paso

In a message dated 3/5/2020 12:19:48 Mountain Standard Time, deemery@... writes:

I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires.  The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only.  Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires?  My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

    dave

Re: Differentiating bus wires?

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

Dave. 

My Kato Colors have kept me in trust; even If I begin to hand lay my track; which may cause me to loose my mind.
White with a Blue Stripe 
And 
Blue with a White Stripe.

I bought 250 feet of each 12 gauge copper stranded wire on eBay.
Then not wanting to cut that purchase..(I don't like to splice)
I bought 25 foot and 100 lengths as well.
===
For other things such as lighting - Yellow and Green
For general use 12 volt drop lines...Red and Black.
Then as necessary for alternative wiring such as for Animation - Think Halloween in Orange and Black.
I have been known to run Purple and Pink as well or Pink and Black and white as in Good N Plenty aka 3 wire applications DPDT.
I generally use the color brown as an Earth Ground (Brown is the Color of Dirt)
Or Green as in NEC Code but in general always 8 gauge or larger. (Green Foliage on top of the Brown Earth)
White is always my Common (not earth) ground.
Not always a wise thing to get Common confused with Earth.
NEVER RED as I once found on my 1959 House in San Jose !
> In some sort of weird common wire between two 110 circuits.
Plug in a source with more than one plug such as a Record Player and it's amplifier and oops..You just made a 220 circuit.
Yet This wire configuration had been approved by City Inspectors.
Houses in my neighborhood were catching on fire from confused wiring.
Red by Code is used by Fire Systems today.

I try not to run different wires through the same hole in cars, houses or layouts. And try to run them separately by at least 6 inches.
So I don't run Security Wiring through the same holes as Electrical. 

I always hand twist it and refrain from getting into any discussions which says this is not necessary.
Bad Luck
Twisted Wire Charms are an amulet from Ireland, as I understand, and are a basis for the Lucky Charms Cereal.
Twisted (Wire) Lucky Charms are as good a reason as any, I suppose.
And a Coat of Many Colors to my wires can't be a bad idea either.
Mark

Running Twisted Buss Wire (near) directly under the tracks ?

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

The area I am modeling - Northern California - has built up Levees and Berms; often above the known flood planes at 2-4 feet or higher above the surrounding ground level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS_gukUGkHc
Yes, the color and type of ballast may change every few yards and so does the surrounding earth, yet the Track Altitude remains basically the same.
However, The maximum or standard grade for the entire area today is 1.5%.  So even in more mountainous areas wide and deep cuts have been made into the earth.

As I was creating such a LeVee-Berm, I began to consider simply running The Twisted Pair 12 Gauge Stranded Dual Color Coded Copper buss wire in the area/trough created.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/wiring-planing

The area in question, may one day reach over two adjacent rooms, in a total given area of 25 x 40+ feet.
So yes a large layout.
This more than likely will one day connect to a second shelf layout which runs through the rest of my house and has a track distance of nearly 300 feet.

Any issues with electrical interference ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference
> If I was to run the twisted pair say an inch or so under the N Scale Track.
I am running mostly LokSound Sound Decoders with an ESU ECoS.

I am prepared to do this as necessary:
https://www.hornby.com/us-en/forum/dcc-causing-broadband-interference/?p=1
==============================================================================
Above the built up ground, the Railroads here (except the Western Pacific) ran higher and wider paths of hard earth, even above the levees. I call these Berms.
For N Scale...HO Truscale Wood is just about perfect.
I use them or similarly cut wood, screwed down over the higher levees of raised earth.
This create a space or trough to which to lay the Twisted Pair.
The N Scale Track is applied to these higher wood (tru-scale) pieces, approximately 30 inch soldered sections, each with their own drop down lead to the buss.
Then...
These Berms/Tru Scale Woods are screwed down to the Levees or higher areas, and are easily lifted for later maintenance.

I am also considering this location for I plan on running all sorts of electrical controlled devices and lights on my layout, and want all electirical wiring to be at least 6 inches from each other.
Not loomed though the same hole.

For now...I have not set up Power Districts, Circuit Breakers or Additional Boosters.
https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-general-best-practices/booster-connections-power
The ECoS system uses a different set of rules I suspect from other DCC Controllers, and with their ESU Sniffer; I believe I can set up multiple ESU ECoS Controllers as Booster Stations.
That however will be in the future.
For now I am just trying to get 99% of my fleet to run glitch, derailment and decoder-reset free.
Mark 

Re: Differentiating bus wires?

Carl
 

Hello Dave:


McMaster-Carr has a good selection of wire markers. Colored electrical tape is OK. I've used the write on markers to ID turnout controls. In industrial wiring they just use numbers: 1&2 for bus A, 3&4 for bus B, 10-19 for yard controls, etc. Just come up with a plan and write the plan down in your log book so you don't forget.


Carl.



On 3/5/2020 4:39 PM, Arthur Hammeke wrote:
Could also use a label maker


From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of emrldsky <azMikeG@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 3:24 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Differentiating bus wires?
 

Hi Dave,

I urge you to do this. It will make your life much easier, especially when you are under your layout with bad lighting. The easiest way is to use wires with a different color insulation. If that is not feasible, or you have hundreds of feet with the same color insulation, at Harbor Freight they have colored tape that you can wrap every couple of feet to differentiate the wires. I would suggest that every wire have a different color, regardless oof use. It just makes trouble shooting and wire tracing so much easier.

Peace,

Mike G.


On 3/5/2020 12:19 PM, Dave Emery via Groups.Io wrote:
I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires.  The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only.  Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires?  My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

	dave





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Re: Differentiating bus wires?

Arthur Hammeke
 

Could also use a label maker


From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of emrldsky <azMikeG@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 3:24 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Differentiating bus wires?
 

Hi Dave,

I urge you to do this. It will make your life much easier, especially when you are under your layout with bad lighting. The easiest way is to use wires with a different color insulation. If that is not feasible, or you have hundreds of feet with the same color insulation, at Harbor Freight they have colored tape that you can wrap every couple of feet to differentiate the wires. I would suggest that every wire have a different color, regardless oof use. It just makes trouble shooting and wire tracing so much easier.

Peace,

Mike G.


On 3/5/2020 12:19 PM, Dave Emery via Groups.Io wrote:
I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires.  The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only.  Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires?  My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

	dave





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Re: Differentiating bus wires?

emrldsky
 

Hi Dave,

I urge you to do this. It will make your life much easier, especially when you are under your layout with bad lighting. The easiest way is to use wires with a different color insulation. If that is not feasible, or you have hundreds of feet with the same color insulation, at Harbor Freight they have colored tape that you can wrap every couple of feet to differentiate the wires. I would suggest that every wire have a different color, regardless oof use. It just makes trouble shooting and wire tracing so much easier.

Peace,

Mike G.


On 3/5/2020 12:19 PM, Dave Emery via Groups.Io wrote:
I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires.  The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only.  Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires?  My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

	dave





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Re: Differentiating bus wires?

David McBrayer
 

How about a different insulation color set for the DC (+ and -) bus wires?   Just document whatever you choose to prevent the "Senior Moment" from setting you back.

Dave McBrayer

On 03/05/2020 11:19 AM, Dave Emery via Groups.Io wrote:
I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires. The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only. Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires? My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

dave
--
Dave McBrayer
Castro Valley, CA

Differentiating bus wires?

Dave Emery
 

I have some nice heavy (14 gauge) wire that I’m using for bus wires. The current plan is that the HO standard gauge will be DCC, while the HOn30 narrow gauge will, at least for now, be DC only. Does anyone have any good/clever ideas how to mark the DC-only wires? My layout is not so big that I’m likely to confuse them, -but- I don’t want to have a temporary Senior Moment when trying to work out a wiring problem down the line.

Thanks in advance!

dave

Re: wiring for turnout switches

mgj21932
 

Allan,
Absolutely right for a novice like me.   And the ability to get a layout functioning more quickly keeps the interest level high.  Hopefully some day I’ll be proficient enough to follow your lead.  
Bill  


On Mar 2, 2020, at 7:35 PM, wirefordcc <bigboy@...> wrote:

Another product that offers complete turnout control, including panel indicators, is the Walther's Layout Control System:

https://www.walthers.com/products/walthers-control-system

While systems like this are not as inexpensive as rolling your own, these products fill the need for people who can't solder or are not good at wiring things up.  Products like this also install quicker than rolling your own.  So they definitely fill a need.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: wireing for turnout switches

wirefordcc
 

For wiring your turnout controls yourself, see my website at:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/sw_ctl.htm

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: Resistance Leak from Fast Track turnouts

Vincent Ficca
 

Hi All:

What I have found out building Fast Track turnout over time, is to cut a slot on the bottom of each PC tie after the turnout is made.  So their is no possible way for the current to flow to the other rail.

Vince



On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:57 PM David Heine <dheineww4@...> wrote:
A wire from an actuator (tortise, servo, etc.) through a hole in a throw bar made from PC board, could touch foils on both sides. I build my turnouts in place and only use PC tie material for the throw bar. I normally have the actuator hole in the middle of the throw bar. I cut the top foil on both sides of the actuator hole and the bottom foil in one place. The only low current short issue I had is if I recently ballasted and it is still damp. One the ballast is completely dry, I have no problems.

Dave Heine
Pennsylvania 


Re: wiring for turnout switches

wirefordcc
 

Another product that offers complete turnout control, including panel indicators, is the Walther's Layout Control System:

https://www.walthers.com/products/walthers-control-system

While systems like this are not as inexpensive as rolling your own, these products fill the need for people who can't solder or are not good at wiring things up.  Products like this also install quicker than rolling your own.  So they definitely fill a need.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC

Re: wireing for turnout switches

mgj21932
 

I had same question.  Although somewhat daunting at first, it doesn’t have to be.  After researching, the biggest issues for me were potential compatability of components from multiple vendors and lack of readily available signaling equipment using LEDs to indicate turnout status.  (I guess long-timers make their own). 

Ultimately went to Tam Valley web site (http://tamvalleydepot.com).   They have complete system of servos, actuators, wires and very neat push buttons with LEDs that can be mounted on a panel with supplied fascia mounting gaskets.  A complete system!  Very neat and straight forward to install.  Can even add DCC Cab control as option to manual buttons.    

Site is not the easiest to navigate but with perseverance you ought to be able to find what you need.  Pay attention to bundled items to save money.  
 
Duncan McCree at Tam Valley is very helpful.  “de.mcree@...”

I ordered everything I needed from Rick at “dccinstallssales@...”.   Great guy to work with; tell him Bill Demarest referred you and you should get great pricing (you’ll save over buying direct).  

FYI, for compatability and simplicity I also went with Tam Valley’s “Hexjuicer” to handle up to 3 autoreverse segments and circuit breaker needs.  Again, Duncan can answer questions and Rick will get you everything you need.   Say “Hi” to both for me.  

Best of luck,
Bill Demarest


On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:44 PM, James Cunningham via Groups.Io <jccowboys825@...> wrote:

How do i wire turnout switches and motors and add direction signal led lights

Re: Resistance Leak from Fast Track turnouts

David Heine
 

A wire from an actuator (tortise, servo, etc.) through a hole in a throw bar made from PC board, could touch foils on both sides. I build my turnouts in place and only use PC tie material for the throw bar. I normally have the actuator hole in the middle of the throw bar. I cut the top foil on both sides of the actuator hole and the bottom foil in one place. The only low current short issue I had is if I recently ballasted and it is still damp. One the ballast is completely dry, I have no problems.

Dave Heine
Pennsylvania 


wireing for turnout switches

James Cunningham
 

How do i wire turnout switches and motors and add direction signal led lights

Re: Resistance Leak from Fast Track turnouts

Richard Sutcliffe
 

Gary

All this will be true with the Fast Tracks system, but this discussion started about turnouts, and track, that were built long before Fast Tracks came along.
Both situations I described did happen.
I mean like 30 plus years ago, when I first used home cut PC ties in the late 1970’s.
Yes, a low “current" leak is an applicable term too.


On Mar 1, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Gary Chudzinski <chudgr@...> wrote:

Richard Sutcliffe writes:
Both cases there was a very high resistance short, just a tiny leak of current.
I’m sure many can relate to the term resistance leak.

Dick,

For me, the term, resistance leak, is somewhat confusing!  How does resistance leak?  I think current leak better identifies the problem you describe!  Also, as one that has built many turnouts in S gauge, I don't see how applied heat during assembly could reduce the insulation  between the top and bottom foils to the point that they could come close to touching, unless the person uses excessive heat from the solder iron, or the CB ties are much thinner than Fast Tacks ties.  Forty to fifty Watt irons are sufficient to get a good flow of solder.  Further, the majority of heat should be applied to the rail base rather than the CB foil.  So, perhaps the flaw is in the application of heat.  Again, the instructions are very clear and detailed on how to apply the flux and heat!  The small swabs are perfect for applying the right amount of flux to the ideal location!  Early on, Fast tracks sold acid flux with precise instructions on how to cleanup.  However, resin flux is now a better option!  I'm wondering if acid flux was used and broke down the CB insulation material causing the high resistance short??

Gary Chudzinski
_._,_._,_


Re: Resistance Leak from Fast Track turnouts

Tom O'Hara
 

I'll echo what Gary says. I don't see any way that current gets from top to bottom copper unless a bit of solder crossed the gap or something else (??). Then the resistance would be tiny and an easy path from top to bottom, and there would be a definite short circuit. Does the substrate conduct? It shouldn't, as proved by zillions of pc boards in use. Can you decompose it? I doubt it, but I guess that's a (unlikely) possibility. Incidentally, if you check for continuity with a checker, there should be no connection.

I'll also echo the soldering technique. Heat the rail with your iron, not the pc tie. You may have to touch the tie for a moment, but that is all. The copper foil can peal off the substrate with too much heat.

I have installed hundreds of pc ties. Each time that I have had continuity where I didn't want it, I have found a metal bridge where I shouldn't have had one. Once removed, the continuity was zero and the resistance infinite.

...Tom

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 7:16 AM Gary Chudzinski <chudgr@...> wrote:
Richard Sutcliffe writes:
Both cases there was a very high resistance short, just a tiny leak of current.
I’m sure many can relate to the term resistance leak.

Dick,

For me, the term, resistance leak, is somewhat confusing!  How does resistance leak?  I think current leak better identifies the problem you describe!  Also, as one that has built many turnouts in S gauge, I don't see how applied heat during assembly could reduce the insulation  between the top and bottom foils to the point that they could come close to touching, unless the person uses excessive heat from the solder iron, or the CB ties are much thinner than Fast Tacks ties.  Forty to fifty Watt irons are sufficient to get a good flow of solder.  Further, the majority of heat should be applied to the rail base rather than the CB foil.  So, perhaps the flaw is in the application of heat.  Again, the instructions are very clear and detailed on how to apply the flux and heat!  The small swabs are perfect for applying the right amount of flux to the ideal location!  Early on, Fast tracks sold acid flux with precise instructions on how to cleanup.  However, resin flux is now a better option!  I'm wondering if acid flux was used and broke down the CB insulation material causing the high resistance short??

Gary Chudzinski











--
... Tom

Re: Resistance Leak from Fast Track turnouts

Gary Chudzinski
 

Richard Sutcliffe writes:
Both cases there was a very high resistance short, just a tiny leak of current.
I’m sure many can relate to the term resistance leak.

Dick,

For me, the term, resistance leak, is somewhat confusing!  How does resistance leak?  I think current leak better identifies the problem you describe!  Also, as one that has built many turnouts in S gauge, I don't see how applied heat during assembly could reduce the insulation  between the top and bottom foils to the point that they could come close to touching, unless the person uses excessive heat from the solder iron, or the CB ties are much thinner than Fast Tacks ties.  Forty to fifty Watt irons are sufficient to get a good flow of solder.  Further, the majority of heat should be applied to the rail base rather than the CB foil.  So, perhaps the flaw is in the application of heat.  Again, the instructions are very clear and detailed on how to apply the flux and heat!  The small swabs are perfect for applying the right amount of flux to the ideal location!  Early on, Fast tracks sold acid flux with precise instructions on how to cleanup.  However, resin flux is now a better option!  I'm wondering if acid flux was used and broke down the CB insulation material causing the high resistance short??

Gary Chudzinski









Re: Peco Unifrog

PennsyNut
 

Allen. I just looked at your link. Great. Very nicely done. The problem I see is that people are waiting for PECO to send Unifrogs to the U.S. and that the wait is taking a very long time. And if they start with Only code 100, those of us with code 83 will be waiting longer. (and what about the frog number? #6 first? #5 most popular) And Rick, who started this thread, is only one of many. PECO seems to be a little vague about when they will be supplying all this, so we can only wait and see! My only comment is that I used Insulfrogs and did not fasten them down - did no wiring - and just finger throw/or rod throw. No electrical connections at all. And they work fine. But when using machines or lights or frog feed, you should use electrofrog. But I was too lazy to wire or fuss with the turnouts. This is not to say my way is best. It's just that I practice the K.I.S.S. principal. And when the Unifrogs get here, I suspect they will be even better. And thanks to Allen for this fantastic thread that is a boon to DCC.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

Re: Peco Unifrog

wirefordcc
 

I have written up the Peco Unifrog on my website at:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm#a7

It appears that the Unifrog will replace the Insulfrog and Electrofrog turnouts.

Allan Gartner
Wiring for DCC