Date   

Re: Auto Reverser Problem

John Cahill
 

Thanks Bill, I’m taking it up with the Permanent Way Department to see it anything can be done!

Best Regards,
John

On 31 Jan 2020, at 13:04, John Cahill via Groups.Io <johncahill25@...> wrote:

Darn! I had hoped that I was missing some possibilities but I guess it is what it is. Thanks anyway!

Best Regards,
John

On 31 Jan 2020, at 02:25, mgj21932 via Groups.Io <mgj21932@...> wrote:

John,
I think the consensus from the prior discussion has been that DCC ARs can do wonderful things BUT they are not without limitations.  And one of those is that to function properly the AR segment must be longer than your longest train.  The efficacy of patch-work fixes really are questionable, if not risky.  Option may be to use shorter trains in this section of the layout.  Or avoid the Wye in this area.
Bill D


Re: Auto Reverser Problem

John Cahill
 

Darn! I had hoped that I was missing some possibilities but I guess it is what it is. Thanks anyway!

Best Regards,
John

On 31 Jan 2020, at 02:25, mgj21932 via Groups.Io <mgj21932@...> wrote:

John,
I think the consensus from the prior discussion has been that DCC ARs can do wonderful things BUT they are not without limitations.  And one of those is that to function properly the AR segment must be longer than your longest train.  The efficacy of patch-work fixes really are questionable, if not risky.  Option may be to use shorter trains in this section of the layout.  Or avoid the Wye in this area.
Bill D


Re: Auto Reverser Problem

mgj21932
 

John,
I think the consensus from the prior discussion has been that DCC ARs can do wonderful things BUT they are not without limitations.  And one of those is that to function properly the AR segment must be longer than your longest train.  The efficacy of patch-work fixes really are questionable, if not risky.  Option may be to use shorter trains in this section of the layout.  Or avoid the Wye in this area.
Bill D


Auto Reverser Problem

John Cahill
 

I hesitate to raise this issue again as it seems to have caused some difficulties and changes in direction previously, but I will encroach on your patience again and see if somebody can help unravel my conundrum as to where I should best create auto reversing section breaks. There are two Wyes joining in a new through station on my layout.  I have opened a folder and uploaded some 4 files which I hope might illustrate the track plan and, with luck, prompt some illumination on my problem.  Due to physical constraints, the usual approach to having an AR in one leg of the Wye is not possible in that they would not be long enough to allow a full train length to enter.  Perhaps there is an approach that I can't see from being to close to the problem.  So if you have any suggestions as to how to address this issue, I'd be grateful. The Folder is titled 'PSX-AR Problem'.
Thanks in advance,
John


Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

To me....
This is the topic.
I want a system that is easy to use and doesn't require a huge time sync earning process.
:)) Mark

Hence ....JMRI is off topic to such a reality.


Re: Converting to DCC

thomasmclae
 

If you have a computer next to the layout, SPROG is an option.
For about $90 plus PC or laptop, you are JMRI, WII Throttle, good programming options, etc.
This gets you started.
You can switch tot he more expensive systems later if needed, and you can still use SPROG and JMRI as programming station. (The Digitrax WiFi uses the same interface as JMRI, you just pay for it more)
Thomas
DeSoto, TX


Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

wirefordcc
 

Mark,

Stay on topic or be banned from this group.  This is your last warning.

Allan

Wiring For DCC


Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

I'll check out JMRI. 
I want a system that is easy to use and doesn't require a huge time sync earning process. I alao don't want to have to be logged onto the internet in order to run my layout. It would have to be a stand alone system that I download to a laptop once then I run it offline.
I'll see what JMRI has to offer,
Thanks, Pete


Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

Mark Gurries is correct in this but I am not sure I got his Other Meaning....In that it won't work all the time, under all conditions.
Could be this is why or as I have learned to say WYE.
A funny thing happened on the way down from the Main Track and further onward to the Turntable and Roundhouse.
(Adding photos to this forum seems to be defunct so bear with me.)
I found I couldn't get there from here ...with anything much longer than a SD-90 Diesel.
N Scale Steam ? Good Luck with that !
Too many Slopes, inclines and switches for the likes of even a 2-8-8-2 to traverse. Bad enough over a #6 but It really brought out the issues in a #4.
This epiphany came after constructing 64 --- 18" x 24" modules....
Oops!
======
Then it arrived one day...
in DCC with Sound.
A Hallmark 2-10-4 and it rocked my world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls-ulIjy3nU
I began to reconstruct my railroad around it.
Here's the thing...It's not just the size or length of your trucks.
It's the length of your electrified drivers and don't forget the freaking tender two ! 
Can you get the full length of your drivers through each and every turnout on your layout without shorting (or frying) your LokSound Decoder ?
Nor causing the sound chip to weaken with every pass over the frog as in reset ?
======
And learn all over again with longer articulated or not locomotives such as a Cab Forwards. Some Cab Forwards don't articulate too well and then to be stiff along their longitudinal axis.
=======
So....
For now at least....Just how many turnouts are on my in progress layout to fit in an 26 feet by 24 foot room ?
Yes Boys and Girls...That's Feet not inches.
At first...?
None...
I am still working on the four corners with a radius of 28 to 71 inches and setting out the general topography.
The topography alone to depict Northern California when it was all prone to flooding is a daunting task on it's own.
However...back to the drawing board.
I have hand constructed #10's and #12's, along with testing Peco #8's and Atlas #10's while also reworking Kato #6's into #9's and larger.
I have yet to construct a #15 High Speed Rail Crossing which might be my next trick before proceeding.
However.......!?!?!
I am also experimenting with operating them via a servo for an ESU ECoS with Detector electronics as well.
========================
Do I know what I am doing for sure and for certain.....?
I have gone way back to the very basics.
See Forrest Gump and his friend Sheldon Cooper at six years old...play with trains....
I just want to see a Train go round and round...Not glitch, nor decouple with never a decoder reset.
I am getting too old to crawl around on top or under my layout like some 6 year old with his first layout.
To me for now...Switches are like the Electric Arming Switches on our Torpedoes at Midway.
http://www.avalanchepress.com/Midway6.php
Get them right or pull out and I mean every damn last one of them !
:)) Mark

Stockton Normal Articulated Freight and Urban (SNAFU)
Freight and Urban Basic Articulated Railway (FUBAR)

People on these forums tend to hint at a perfect and wonderful experience with their wannabe layouts as in Model Railroading is Fun.
Get Real !
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/12/californias-77-billion-high-speed-rail-project-is-in-trouble.html
Kind of reminds me of many a model railroading layout ...Lots and Lots of money yet never completed.

Run a Zig Zag Pattern commander....
But Sir....
There are no Japanese Submarines on my layout.
My layout plan for now.....
Just one big square-oval with wide curves in all four corners....
No Glitches, No Ditches No Uncle Sam. (I don't use NMRA Specifications)


Re: Converting to DCC

Jim Zarnick
 

I haven’t read the whole thread but have you looked at JMRI and running your layout from software on a laptop?  JMRI is free and will connect to you DCC controller through a USB port.

Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App



------ Original Message ------

From: Pete via Groups.Io
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Sent: January 28, 2020 at 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Converting to DCC

Thanks Mark,
I'm seriously considering the ECoS. I really like being able to to see the picture of the engine I'm wanting to to control on the display in front of me.
The thing I question though, is it more system than I need for my small layout. My layout is only 8×13 and no room for growth beyond that.
I went to the train show last week, saw a layout bigger than mine running on Digitrax WiFi using cellphones for controllers. Really like that. I have four old cellphones I can put to use and it will save me from buying throttles.
So many options to consider..

Pete - Bellevue(Eastgate), Wa


Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Thanks Mark,
I'm seriously considering the ECoS. I really like being able to to see the picture of the engine I'm wanting to to control on the display in front of me.
The thing I question though, is it more system than I need for my small layout. My layout is only 8×13 and no room for growth beyond that.
I went to the train show last week, saw a layout bigger than mine running on Digitrax WiFi using cellphones for controllers. Really like that. I have four old cellphones I can put to use and it will save me from buying throttles.
So many options to consider..

Pete - Bellevue(Eastgate), Wa


Re: Converting to DCC

Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
 

Pete ...

Americans can be relied upon to do the right thing...
After they have tried everything else. - Winston Churchill

If you truly do not want to do the upgrade path....and prefer 5 amps and a wireless or two extra controller.....
But why stop at five when you can begin with 6 amps.
https://tonystrains.com/news/esu-ecos-command-station/
So....
Might I suggest an ESU ECoS once again...and you may find you don't need no stinkin JMRI.
Which can become like a whole other separate hobby !
I monitor  - but have never posted on the JMRI forum.
However...I purchased a TEAK combination Liquor Cabinet and Desk to eventually create a Computer/DCC programming station...
but before that came to be...
I bought my first ECoS.
========
Duh Me ...? and MORE
If you search back on our many forums to 2012...you may find me Forrest Gumping my way through DCC, DCC with Sound and Railroad modeling in general.
I started off with MRC and found myself nearly hoarding other systems and the layouts they rode in on from all over Northern California.
A funny thing happens to people on their way to being Homeless...they begin to sell off their stuff.
One guy though got smart...sold me some of his stuff...500 locomotives to another guy ...
THEN GAVE me all of his materials such as plastruck and such which filled up my BMW X5 FOUR Times.
Sold his House got on a plane and moved back to Oklahoma.
===> I am considering following him.
But I digress....
I own some DCC equipped locomotives which work > differently < or not at all on some DCC Controllers.
Works fine on a Prodigy but but not at all on a Digitrax Chief or the decoder tries to reset itself, far too often... with a myriad of other issues.
Even between the Chief and Zephyr which have slight programming differences and read backs.
I eventually offered my locomotives with DCC .... a deal which they should not have refused.
Get along with my ECoS...or you will find yourself on eBay.
Poor Paragons...some of which are old ESU Decoders.
Once I began that thinking...I cut way down on the Drama to my Hobby.
=====
So what is my plan with Two ECoS Controllers and a walk around or three ???
but there is more.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1K_-bjdXY
With the ECoS....I can use OTHER devices such as Cell Phones and such with Android Devices; which includes such things as wireless extenders.
Here is another view....and reality back to the ECoS,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TN_R-GonlE
and ...if you don't necessarily like the newest wireless remote....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psq_klf0kBo
Yes, you can connect and operate the old discontinued ESU Naviagotor or Bachmann Dynamis.
=====
You may have mentioned a Switching Yard.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0iJlm-h8FA
Oh Yeah....
and if you gots to ...use your new 4k Scree to see the controls of your ECoS....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1--SAhuitRY
and just in case you want to run Cameras on your Trains....
There is the Roko Z21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5aqLtYx1KU
and perhaps broadcast it all on the internet.
====
If the ECoS had existed in 1981....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TDDjckT6MI
LOL
:)) Mark

It's thrilling to meet you Gloria.....
When one has obtained the Status of Elder and too many of your friends have already died or are soon to be dead or Homeless.
One begins to face life with a certain Distillation 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RunNMtpb5Bk
See 6:14
I am very pleased....


Re: using low voltage on DC fans

Greg Smith
 

Ken
Thank you for the information.  I have a couple of 12VDC fans – think I paid $2.00 for them – so as you say they are not expensive.  They do run on 3.3 and 5 VDC.  Mainly I was curious as to their likely longevity and also to find a use for the 3.3 VDC outputs.   One sure way to find out is to run them and see if they last.  If they do not I will replace with 5VDC fans. 
I am new to this and many basic (dumb) questions are forth coming.
 
Greg Smith
ps – I have checked the voltage output on the ATX power supply and all three voltages are very close to rating.


Re: PSX-AR Installation Query

Mark Gurries
 

This will not work under all conditions.

Any Engine or any car with multiple wheel electrical pickup will still short the two rails together as long as the TRUCK, not just a wheel spans over the gap (insulated rail joint).

So if you engine is crossing the gaps one one end of the reversing section and a passenger car is still crossing the other end gaps, you will still get a short circuit failure.



On Jan 20, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Chuck <railfan@goodeid.com> wrote:

To avoid the metal wheel problem, simply glue a piece of styrene into
the gap and when dry sand or file to match the rail. The wheels will no
longer contact both rails at the same time.

Chuck

On 2020-01-20 3:03 p.m., mgj21932 via Groups.Io wrote:
Pete. Your metal wheels explanation makes absolute sense. Thanks
Bill


On Jan 20, 2020, at 2:58 PM, Pete via Groups.Io
<Kayakerpc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

As it was explained to me...
If you are running metal wheels, every pair of wheels that crosses
the polarity gap will cause the Auto Reverser to switch the polarity
if there is a difference, so if your loco hits a second gap before the
whole train is through that section, the loco will switch the polarity
again and then the wheels of the cars behind that cross the first gap
will switch the polarity again before the whole train is through
Your AR will be flipping back and forth as each set of wheels hit the
two gaps.
I hope I interpreted this correctly as I am new to DCC wiring too, but
I'm following the advice that was given to me as it makes sense.
Pete


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com


Re: Converting to DCC

Pete
 

Thanks Paul,

I,ve re-gapped my layout as suggested.
I see I will need one AR  for the lower yard.

Can I get by with one AR for the upper isolated section?
(I can't see why I would need one at each end, wouldn't they both trip when either end gets a short?)


I've been reading about dividing the layout into multiple power districts.
Is this something I should consider being that my layout isn't that big?
The upper and lower yards are already sepperate busses. Is that enough?
What more would I seperate?

Thanks,
Pete - Bellevue(Eastgate), Wa


Re: using low voltage on DC fans

 

The fans are in reality brush-less DC motors and therefore rely on internal electronics to make them rotate.  What happens when you under drive them therefore cannot be predicted.  Some fans are rated to work down to 5 Volts but others don't say.  If you give me the model and part number I will see if I can find its' electrical rating.

These are not costly devices so why not purchase one rated for what you want to do.  3.3V are rare but if you can run at 5 Volts can find a lot of choices.

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/cui-devices/CFM-5010V-052-300/102-4365-ND/7620539

Be sure to check the actual output of your ATX supply as they are designed for heavy loads on the low voltage outlets and may not regulate properly without such.

Best Regards,

Ken Harstine


Re: Reversing Sections.

mgj21932
 

Excellent point.  And, yes, at least one of my new AR segments is now substantially larger and likely would have two trains on it.
 Hex Juicer will supply 1.7 amps to track.  I believe that ought to be sufficient for two efficient DCC Locos in one segment.  Will put track feeders at regular intervals.  
Bill


On Jan 27, 2020, at 8:49 AM, whmvd <vandoornw@...> wrote:


Bill,

Before you get rid of it, there is another consideration. Reducing the number of AR sections often involves making the newly chosen ones larger, or designing them so that entire stations or yards find themselves in one. That is in itself fine and can be crafty, but: keep in  mind that auto-reversers have a current limit that is usually considerably lower than what the regular track power is able to deliver.

Initial AR determination usually aims at smaller sections of single track, and that as a matter of course keeps the current draw in the section smallish. Re-thinks often cause individual AR sections to have to handle more than one train. so if you find the new design does that, have a careful look at the maximum power you expect to draw - and whether the AR can actually provide that.

Wouter

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 04:13, mgj21932 via Groups.Io <mgj21932=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Yup.  Should have been able to save $$.  But had already bought reversing circuitry.  Now have an unused Tam Valley Hex juicer.  Anyone need one?  LOL!   
Novice mistake, but better to catch now than later.  And very much appreciate help and advice from this group.  
Bill D. 


On Jan 26, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:



Hi:

I would make a diagram of the track connections and search for the minimum of reversing sections.

On Jim's layout he designed it as a folded and twisted DogBone and planned the reversing loops based on the DogBone route not requiring any. This resulted in three connections that had to be reversing blocks. When I looked at it as either clockwise or counter clockwise around the room there were only two reversing blocks. If you were depending on buying auto-reversers this would be a 33% savings.

Carl.

On 1/26/2020 10:04 PM, Steve Haas wrote:

>>>> I am a little curious why so many reversing sections – are you sure they all are actually that? <<<<

 

I have the same curiosity too, Max.  I’ve DL’d the track plan but have not had the time to properly analyze it to see what is really needed in terms of reversing sections and reversers.  Sometimes the track that creates the need for a reverser is not the track where the reverser should be used.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA


Re: Reversing Sections.

whmvd
 

Bill,

Before you get rid of it, there is another consideration. Reducing the number of AR sections often involves making the newly chosen ones larger, or designing them so that entire stations or yards find themselves in one. That is in itself fine and can be crafty, but: keep in  mind that auto-reversers have a current limit that is usually considerably lower than what the regular track power is able to deliver.

Initial AR determination usually aims at smaller sections of single track, and that as a matter of course keeps the current draw in the section smallish. Re-thinks often cause individual AR sections to have to handle more than one train. so if you find the new design does that, have a careful look at the maximum power you expect to draw - and whether the AR can actually provide that.

Wouter


On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 at 04:13, mgj21932 via Groups.Io <mgj21932=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Yup.  Should have been able to save $$.  But had already bought reversing circuitry.  Now have an unused Tam Valley Hex juicer.  Anyone need one?  LOL!   
Novice mistake, but better to catch now than later.  And very much appreciate help and advice from this group.  
Bill D. 


On Jan 26, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:



Hi:

I would make a diagram of the track connections and search for the minimum of reversing sections.

On Jim's layout he designed it as a folded and twisted DogBone and planned the reversing loops based on the DogBone route not requiring any. This resulted in three connections that had to be reversing blocks. When I looked at it as either clockwise or counter clockwise around the room there were only two reversing blocks. If you were depending on buying auto-reversers this would be a 33% savings.

Carl.

On 1/26/2020 10:04 PM, Steve Haas wrote:

>>>> I am a little curious why so many reversing sections – are you sure they all are actually that? <<<<

 

I have the same curiosity too, Max.  I’ve DL’d the track plan but have not had the time to properly analyze it to see what is really needed in terms of reversing sections and reversers.  Sometimes the track that creates the need for a reverser is not the track where the reverser should be used.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA


Re: Reversing Sections.

Don Vollrath
 

I said that earlier Carl. Draw it out A figure eight plus sides to form an outside continuous loop is the same as a folded dog bone ... with main lines expanded in the area of the crossover. Only two AR sections. One at each end of the continuous loop Everything in the middle can be / is constant polarity.
DonV


Re: Reversing Sections.

mgj21932
 

Yup.  Should have been able to save $$.  But had already bought reversing circuitry.  Now have an unused Tam Valley Hex juicer.  Anyone need one?  LOL!   
Novice mistake, but better to catch now than later.  And very much appreciate help and advice from this group.  
Bill D. 


On Jan 26, 2020, at 10:17 PM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:



Hi:

I would make a diagram of the track connections and search for the minimum of reversing sections.

On Jim's layout he designed it as a folded and twisted DogBone and planned the reversing loops based on the DogBone route not requiring any. This resulted in three connections that had to be reversing blocks. When I looked at it as either clockwise or counter clockwise around the room there were only two reversing blocks. If you were depending on buying auto-reversers this would be a 33% savings.

Carl.

On 1/26/2020 10:04 PM, Steve Haas wrote:

>>>> I am a little curious why so many reversing sections – are you sure they all are actually that? <<<<

 

I have the same curiosity too, Max.  I’ve DL’d the track plan but have not had the time to properly analyze it to see what is really needed in terms of reversing sections and reversers.  Sometimes the track that creates the need for a reverser is not the track where the reverser should be used.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

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