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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
As from a previous thread...(deleted by management)
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Power Boosters
Obeeone
Can anyone help me with this question? I'm re-entering the train scene but I'm asking if I am able to "mix-n-match" brands of power boosters. In other words, say I have an NCE DCC system. Can I add a Bachmann or Digitrax or any other brand as a power booster, or must the power booster be of the same brand system? Can I mix them? Thanx.
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Greg Smith
Thank you for the info. Still, I will test it the next time I fire it
up. Has generated some conversation on the forum. My shop, wired by
myself, does have a separate ground wire and all receptacles are new three prong
plugs. So that should not be an issue.
From: Denny
Anspach
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 3:31 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Current through the soldering iron
tip ESD
SAFE reportedly is the sign that the iron is grounded and labeled to be safe
for CMOS and similar electronic work. My current Weller is so labeled, and
apparently it is the same iron also commonly used in the nearby gigantic
Intel plant (California location).
Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
ESD SAFE reportedly is the sign that the iron is grounded and labeled to be safe for CMOS and similar electronic work. My current Weller is so labeled, and apparently it is the same iron also commonly used in the nearby gigantic Intel plant (California location).
Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento CA
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Charles Brumbelow
An older house, originally wired with two rather than two plus ground, may have some/all outlets with three prongs where inside the box the ground terminal is connected to the white (neutral) wire. And the three to two adapter which fastens to the screw holding the cover on is worse than useless unless metal conduit was used throughout the building.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Wednesday, June 12, 2019, 7:27 AM, Dennis Cherry <dbcherry@...> wrote:
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
JBJudy
This comment causes me to ask for a clarification ............
"Thank you for the heads up. I will test my Weller ( a 51 if memory serves – or fails) tomorrow. If it fails, I will continue to use for general soldering – ie working on turnouts and general wiring, but will have to find a substitute for decoder work. Greg" Very interesting topic. Sounds like the issue is only when soldering the decoders. Is the "leaking voltage" not harming an engine on the track when soldering feeders? JB Morrow
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
No matter how good your soldering is and has all the safety features needed, if you use a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter then it is no better than a cheap soldering iron.
The Safety ground has a purpose, your house wiring has to have the 3rd wire (Ground) also and have a copper stake in the ground connected to the third wire. The White wire is called neutral and is only used as the return wire for 110/120 VAC not a safety ground. Dennis
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Electrostatic discharge... Craig Zeni Cary, NC Despatched from my infernal Android
On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 21:11 Greg Smith <gcscls@...> wrote:
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Greg Smith
Denny
I checked and I have a WES 51. It is marked ESD Safe on the front of
the case. Do you know what “ESD Safe” means?
Greg
From: Denny
Anspach
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 11:09 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Current through the soldering iron
tip I
am the person who alerted Larry to this issue, an issue notably prevalent in
non-grounded irons, especially those with ceramic insulation. It
becomes a potential lethal problem when soldering fine electronics (read: DCC
decoders). An authoritative standard industry text book on electronic soldering
strongly warns against using ungrounded irons on such circuitry.
This came to my attention when I sequentially fried the audio circuitry of
three new sound decoders, and neither I nor the manufacturer had a clue as to
what was happening (although -in frustration- not without some mutual polite
finger pointing in the process). A model railroad EE engineer
colleague (whose day job is industrial trouble shooting chip problems) -by
elimination- discovered the problem: my faithful super-reliable
non-grounded red Weller WLC100 soldering station was leaking a measured
28V through the hot iron (the cold iron had no leakage). I banished this
iron, and a bunch of other ungrounded irons immediately from all electronic
work, switched to a better grounded Weller station specifically qualified
for electronic work ("ESD SAFE") and all problems disappeared like
the snow in the midday sun.
I have been installing decoders for almost 20 years, so this internal
breakdown occurred somewhere along the way, or the decoder circuitry became more
vulnerable.
The WLC100 is a very popular work horse model, still very much on the
market, and notably has not been sold by Weller as safe for
electronics.
Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Greg Smith
Thank you for the heads up. I will test my Weller ( a 51 if memory
serves – or fails) tomorrow.
If it fails, I will continue to use for general soldering – ie working on
turnouts and general wiring, but will have to find a substitute for decoder
work.
Greg
From: Denny
Anspach
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 11:09 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Current through the soldering iron
tip I
am the person who alerted Larry to this issue, an issue notably prevalent in
non-grounded irons, especially those with ceramic insulation. It
becomes a potential lethal problem when soldering fine electronics (read: DCC
decoders). An authoritative standard industry text book on electronic soldering
strongly warns against using ungrounded irons on such circuitry.
This came to my attention when I sequentially fried the audio circuitry of
three new sound decoders, and neither I nor the manufacturer had a clue as to
what was happening (although -in frustration- not without some mutual polite
finger pointing in the process). A model railroad EE engineer
colleague (whose day job is industrial trouble shooting chip problems) -by
elimination- discovered the problem: my faithful super-reliable
non-grounded red Weller WLC100 soldering station was leaking a measured
28V through the hot iron (the cold iron had no leakage). I banished this
iron, and a bunch of other ungrounded irons immediately from all electronic
work, switched to a better grounded Weller station specifically qualified
for electronic work ("ESD SAFE") and all problems disappeared like
the snow in the midday sun.
I have been installing decoders for almost 20 years, so this internal
breakdown occurred somewhere along the way, or the decoder circuitry became more
vulnerable.
The WLC100 is a very popular work horse model, still very much on the
market, and notably has not been sold by Weller as safe for
electronics.
Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Richard Gagnon <richg_1998@...>
That came a a surprise to me as my station has the tree prong plug. Must be the internal wiring. I never did see any voltage issue though. Rich
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
I am the person who alerted Larry to this issue, an issue notably prevalent in non-grounded irons, especially those with ceramic insulation. It becomes a potential lethal problem when soldering fine electronics (read: DCC decoders). An authoritative standard industry text book on electronic soldering strongly warns against using ungrounded irons on such circuitry.
This came to my attention when I sequentially fried the audio circuitry of three new sound decoders, and neither I nor the manufacturer had a clue as to what was happening (although -in frustration- not without some mutual polite finger pointing in the process). A model railroad EE engineer colleague (whose day job is industrial trouble shooting chip problems) -by elimination- discovered the problem: my faithful super-reliable non-grounded red Weller WLC100 soldering station was leaking a measured 28V through the hot iron (the cold iron had no leakage). I banished this iron, and a bunch of other ungrounded irons immediately from all electronic work, switched to a better grounded Weller station specifically qualified for electronic work ("ESD SAFE") and all problems disappeared like the snow in the midday sun. I have been installing decoders for almost 20 years, so this internal breakdown occurred somewhere along the way, or the decoder circuitry became more vulnerable. The WLC100 is a very popular work horse model, still very much on the market, and notably has not been sold by Weller as safe for electronics. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Put your AC Voltmeter between the tip and ground and see if you measure anything. It is really the voltage that could cause your decoders to blow.
You should check for DC voltage as well but this is less likely. Ken Harstine
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Re: Current through the soldering iron tip
Don Vollrath
With the soldering iron heating up measure for any AC or DC voltage from the iron tip to the grounding prong at a grounded outlet. If any voltage is detected there is a current leakage problem. Replace the iron.
DonV
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Current through the soldering iron tip
Greg Smith
Larry Puckett had a item in the DCC Corner of the newest Model Railroader magazine about current being passed through the soldering iron tip which caused problems with some of his decoder installations. Is there an easy way to check this?
Greg ps - be kind - my electronics knowledge is limited:)
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Re: Divide or not
andymsa2
Hi mark,
thankyou for for the reply and understand your explanation. Leaving aside the inrush issue, the part that f my question relegating to having two command/ boosters was to not have the dcs240 running at near to capacity but to share the load more than evenly. andy
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Re: Divide or not
Mark Gurries
Inrush current has no numerical value because there are a lot of variables.. But in all cases, it will exceed the current draw of just about any booster made. The question is how long does it draw this current. If it exceeds the rating of the booster longer than it shutdown timer will allow, the booster will shutdown. This problem is no new. This same EXACT problem happened when sound decoders made their appearance. The more sound decoder were added to the layout, the worse the inrush current go until the booster could not support it and shutdown. Today most DCC circuit breakers are design to deal with the high inrush current problem when there is a short circuit. Recovery problem solved. To your question, should you drive the DC240 harder. I understand that changing shutdown increased the inrush capability, but Digitrax has no specification. This is the same question as “ How many more sound locomotive can I add to my layout". Every time you add another signal controller, the inrush will go up some amount as you need to charge the capacitors on each additional signal board. As you keep adding more, at some point your problem that you just solved will reappear. So it is not how much steady state current draw you can you push, it how much inrush current can the booster support. There is no valid answer because there is no specification nor DCC standard for inrush in which one can use figure the answer out.
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Divide or not
andymsa2
hi all,
last night i installed my dcs240 after some initial issues it's working ok now. The issues was it was shutting down imeadiatly with 4 beeps indicating a short. There was no short the shutdown was caused by inrush current. I was surprised at this considering its able to provide at 8 amps, and the current demand is at half of the 8 amps available, I increased the short circuit shutdown time which resolved this, the supply power is the ps2012 so this is up to the job and the current draw is around 4.5 amps which will increase. I should add the dcs240 only powers my signals which are digital and als provides power for the electronics of the accessory decoders. A DC supply provides power for attached accessories. now I have given an explanation of how I got to this question, I am wondering should I drive the dcs240 to near to at least 3/4 of its full power output, I have wondered if to divided this power with my old dcs100 in booster mode of course. i look forward to your thoughts andy
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Re: K.I.S.S.
PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
I sincerely want to thank each and everyone that responds. Just so we all enjoy this wonderful hobby. As for CV's, I always advise to stick with the basics. Why bother with CV29 until you actually need it. I program 4 digit loco numbers all the time with the simple method. And I firmly believe that newbies need only CV 3,4,5,6 to get a loco running the way they want. CV 2 is optional. As are most of the other CV's. IMHO. And this may not be the last word. LOL
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC
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Re: Betwixt and Between Layout - I have seen the Elephant
Mark Cartwright <marcdecapri@...>
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 02:20 PM, Don Vollrath wrote:
RC filter/snubbers? Thanks Don...
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