Date   
Re: programming CV

Joseph A. Correro, Jr.
 

I am only 73, but I have a lot of learning to do!

Jody



"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away!"


On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 7:45 PM Mike Hoggard via Groups.Io <swingfour=btopenworld.com@groups.io> wrote:
Well done Morgan. I am 87 on Saturday and am building my first model rail layout in the loft.  It is 12ft x 15 ft. And I use Roco multiemaus as my system.  I might upgrade later.   I have 30 locomotives fitted with decoders and four of them with sound.  My biggest problem theseays is reading the small print in instruction manuals.  I can still climb the loft ladder into the loft so that,s good.  Mike Hoggard
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 19/5/19, PennsyNut <pennsynut@...> wrote:
Q
 Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] programming CV
 To: w4dccqa@groups.io
 Date: Sunday, 19 May, 2019, 16:21

 Lee: being 83 is not a
 bad thing. I'm 80. And had been an armchair modeler for
 too many years. Just restarted a new layout and DCC. And
 that's why I wrote about how I went about it. Using
 online tools can help, and I worked my way through the
 CV's with just the manuals and YouTube. Check for online
 videos that show how.  I have a Zephyr and do those
 CV's one at a time. No fancy computer stuff - yet! And
 no one to come and help me. So if I can do it, so can
 you!
 Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC






Re: K.I.S.S.

whmvd
 

Tom,

Have you tried explaining to someone how to properly put together a long address field and program it? How to assign outputs to functions? Did you enjoy it? Did the recipient? And have you seen what DecoderPro does instead?

I don't see any argument for beginners being well off with just CV numbers and values they often have to cobble together in the most unintelligable way, whether decimal or hexadecimal - both are a pain, only a different sort of pain.

BTW: trying to get a 'last word' in there and then saying you don't want to argue the pros and cons does not work. At all. If you start an argument, you will get to hear the other side.

As to the original post: I think it's a tiny minority of cases where a beginning poster is overloaded with too much and too difficult information. Yes, it happens. Sometimes by somebody explaining at a level that is not appropriate for the audience. Yes, it is a pity when that does happen. On the other hand, it is very often impossible to give factually correct information without getting into the nitty-gritty. Difficult things being, well, difficult. But we can all only try. And I'm sure we all do. Sometimes more successfully than at other times.

Wouter

Wouter


On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 19:45, Tom O'Hara <tomohara5@...> wrote:
I'm afraid that we are getting close to causing grief here, but there is a significant point to be made. Programming can be done easily with the basic DCC system. There is no need for hexadecimal or bits. It can be done with standard base-ten numbers. As I said previously, I have done this on three different systems. (And I do comprehend hex.)

Later, if he wants to add Decoder Pro, it will still be there. I don't want to argue the pros and cons of approaching the programming by different methods. That's starting to sound like the start of a war. But is IS easy to program with a command station and a throttle. I do it all the time, and I do have Decoder Pro available for times when I want to use it.

.....Tom

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:24 PM David Klemm <davidklemm7511@...> wrote:
Morgan

How is telling a person something that requires an understanding of hexadecimal and bits simpler?  Obviously he didn’t know what he didn’t know but giving advice on a solution that allows the use of plain English versus bits is a simpler solution.  Sure the person could have done a better job of leading the person with the question to that conclusion by showing what it means to have to program the ‘old’ fashioned way. 

David Klemm
Xs Max

From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of PennsyNut <pennsynut@...>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 11:52
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] K.I.S.S.
 
I want to address a problem I see. Not specifically this forum. But when someone asks a question, has a problem, etc. Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice. I did respond about CV's in a K.I.S.S. manner because that's what I thought the original request was for. Not to go buy more. A DC402 is NOT required. A PR4 is NOT required. The simple Zephyr or whatever will suffice until the beginner/novice/requester get his/her feet wet. After a bit of experiment, and a little more confidence, he/she can then decide on Decoder Pro or whatever. Sorry for this if it offends anyone. I do not intend to do that. I only request that y'all be considerate of other people. And don't "over-answer" with advice that is premature.
JMRI is a great product, so is downloading JAVA, and so is buying a PR4/or equivalent.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC



--
... Tom

Re: Not planning on a Reversing Triangle on my next Layout.

Joseph A. Correro, Jr.
 

What is your inference "Not in Mississippi" mean?
A bit racist aren't you?

Jody


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away!"


On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:10 PM Mark Cartwright via Groups.Io <marcdecapri=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you for both of your replies...
Now combine them....
I have a very long reply which is in the Drafts...
To save you all the tedious time of reading it...
Here is the Gist:

You need to get the whole locomotive through the Switch Turnout BEFORE It encounters yet another aspect of Connectivity...or even physics.

So the front pilot can not derail through the turnout and the drivers should remain rigid as one or it confused at the frog.
Further...The tender wheels need to clear the turnout before the pilot wheels encounter the next conductivity.
How do you do that in a WYE ?
Good Luck with that...!
Cause for now...No WYE's 
Only Three #12 Turnouts.
Once I can circumnavigate my House and 25x30 foot layout....
Will I pick up the Gambit of Auto-Reversers ?
Not until I install LokSound Decoders with Sound into several of my Steam Locomotives.
Each of those will require 12 or so hours of labor and concentration.
======
Got Oak Tress and Rolling Hills ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZocpwWLsyE

It's all about the money Boys !
After purchasing several defunct layouts which never came to be....
I began to create my own Oak Trees and Rolling Hills which depict California.
NOT Mississippi.
Thank you for the conversational hiatus.
I refuse to be a Man of Constant Sorrow.
:)) Mark

It's not really about the money nor the constant collecting of this stuff (which may nor may not work).
It's about completing an Operational Layout with Trees in your life time.
I am feeling a bit guilty for buying so much of this stuff from Widows; as another of my few friends from High School may not survive the week.

Re: programming CV

Scott Nelson
 

To reply directly to your questions:

A "CV" is a "configuration variable".  In decoders, they have a number of things that can be configured.  That configuration is done via numbered CVs.  For example, the "primary address" is configured via CV 1.

There are many ways to program CVs.
  • One way is to program using a throttle via the command station, such as your Digitrax system.  You didn't mention which Digitrax system or the throttles you have, but the manual that came with your Digitrax system should tell you how to do that.
  • Another way is to use hardware/software combination to program CVs.  For example, using a LocoNet to USB converter (like Digitrax's PR4) and JMRI's Decoder Pro.  If Decoder Pro knows about the particular decoder you are trying to program, it can take those CV values and make them more "user friendly".  For example, Decoder Pro might give you a bunch of checkboxes to choose some options from instead of you trying to do binary arithmetic and converting from binary to hexadecimal and/or decimal. 

Re: Not planning on a Reversing Triangle on my next Layout.

Dave Swinford
 

It’s a movie reference for the old folk song Man of Constant Sorrow. 
Dave




On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 6:13 AM, Joseph A. Correro, Jr. <joedeyejr@...> wrote:

What is your inference "Not in Mississippi" mean?
A bit racist aren't you?

Jody


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away!"


On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:10 PM Mark Cartwright via Groups.Io <marcdecapri=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you for both of your replies...
Now combine them....
I have a very long reply which is in the Drafts...
To save you all the tedious time of reading it...
Here is the Gist:

You need to get the whole locomotive through the Switch Turnout BEFORE It encounters yet another aspect of Connectivity...or even physics.

So the front pilot can not derail through the turnout and the drivers should remain rigid as one or it confused at the frog.
Further...The tender wheels need to clear the turnout before the pilot wheels encounter the next conductivity.
How do you do that in a WYE ?
Good Luck with that...!
Cause for now...No WYE's 
Only Three #12 Turnouts.
Once I can circumnavigate my House and 25x30 foot layout....
Will I pick up the Gambit of Auto-Reversers ?
Not until I install LokSound Decoders with Sound into several of my Steam Locomotives.
Each of those will require 12 or so hours of labor and concentration.
======
Got Oak Tress and Rolling Hills ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZocpwWLsyE

It's all about the money Boys !
After purchasing several defunct layouts which never came to be....
I began to create my own Oak Trees and Rolling Hills which depict California.
NOT Mississippi.
Thank you for the conversational hiatus.
I refuse to be a Man of Constant Sorrow.
:)) Mark

It's not really about the money nor the constant collecting of this stuff (which may nor may not work).
It's about completing an Operational Layout with Trees in your life time.
I am feeling a bit guilty for buying so much of this stuff from Widows; as another of my few friends from High School may not survive the week.

Re: programming CV

PennsyNut
 

Mike: First, thanks for the response. My answer for you. Whenever I obtain something new, I immediately go online to see if I can download the manual. Digitrax is great for this. Get as many manuals downloaded as you think you "might need". Then, you've got the zoom to help read. I am at the place in my life where I use the OptiVisor just to read paper books. The prescription glasses only do so much. And. I do this for everything, especially Air Conditioners. LOL
Morgan Bilbo, getting better at DCC

Re: Purpose of this Q&A Forum

PennsyNut
 

I heartily agree. And sincerely hope I don't violate this rule. When responding to a question, I try to put myself in that person's place and answer what I think he/she needs to know. This is a great forum and thanks to Allan for having it here. Since I first started reading it, I realized it is a great help to beginner and others too.
So to keep this sane, I strongly suggest we K.I.S.S.
Thanks again to Allan Gartner.
Morgan Bilbo, new to DCC

Re: K.I.S.S.

Gary Chudzinski
 

Morgan Bilbo writes:   Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice.  

Morgan,
Being one whose technical knowledge is somewhere between high tech and new to DCC, I think I can answer your question using the KISS principle!  My observation is that when some individuals with a vast technical knowledge answer a technical question, they don't always respond to the most elementary level of the persons understanding.  This is not a slam at these folks, but there is such a wide range of DCC knowledge and understanding by members of the groups. io Lists that it's difficult to respond to the technical level of each.  I share your frustration at times, but I find responding directly, off list, to the person that has confused me brings results.  I think for the most part, if a person bothers to respond to questions, they are willing to clarify and help individually as much as possible.  When new to DCC, there is a lot to learn and patience, study, re-reading the manuals are all necessary!  It might also be helpful to identify in your post, that you are new to DCC with very limited understanding of DCC vernacular.  That should enhance a KISS response!  Hope this helps. 




DCC Questions and Answers ONLY

wirefordcc
 

This forum has existed for over 20 years.  It has been a place where people could ask their questions and give answers without worrying about being attacked.  This is not a chat group.  It is a Q&A Forum.  The forum has never needed to be moderated.

We seem to be having trouble with this lately.  Therefore, limit your comments to DCC questions and answers ONLY.  If I have to delete another message, I will start banning people from the forum without further comment.  If I have to, I will switch the forum to be a moderated one.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Re: DCC Questions and Answers ONLY

Don Poitras
 

Atta boy Allan!.......no monkey business👍
From: w4dccqa@groups.io <w4dccqa@groups.io> on behalf of wirefordcc <bigboy@...>
Sent: May 21, 2019 9:34:01 AM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: [w4dccqa] DCC Questions and Answers ONLY
 
This forum has existed for over 20 years.  It has been a place where people could ask their questions and give answers without worrying about being attacked.  This is not a chat group.  It is a Q&A Forum.  The forum has never needed to be moderated.

We seem to be having trouble with this lately.  Therefore, limit your comments to DCC questions and answers ONLY.  If I have to delete another message, I will start banning people from the forum without further comment.  If I have to, I will switch the forum to be a moderated one.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Re: K.I.S.S.

Lee Phillips
 

Thanks, Gary.
You are right on.  The more  I read, the dumber I become
I have tried to redo some of the CV with engine on track, but get a reading "Not available" to change OPS in this mode
I guess I will have to program on a dummy track



On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:51 AM Gary Chudzinski <chudgr@...> wrote:
Morgan Bilbo writes:   Why do the responses all seem to be: 1> over a beginners head. 2> involve spending money. 3> and sometimes confuse the original requestor. I see this a lot. A man asks about CV's and he gets told to buy a PR4 or it's equivalent to get JMRI and JAVA. Yes, that's good advice, but that isn't what the requester asked. And since I'm guessing that most requester's are novices or beginners, why overload them with future advice.  

Morgan,
Being one whose technical knowledge is somewhere between high tech and new to DCC, I think I can answer your question using the KISS principle!  My observation is that when some individuals with a vast technical knowledge answer a technical question, they don't always respond to the most elementary level of the persons understanding.  This is not a slam at these folks, but there is such a wide range of DCC knowledge and understanding by members of the groups. io Lists that it's difficult to respond to the technical level of each.  I share your frustration at times, but I find responding directly, off list, to the person that has confused me brings results.  I think for the most part, if a person bothers to respond to questions, they are willing to clarify and help individually as much as possible.  When new to DCC, there is a lot to learn and patience, study, re-reading the manuals are all necessary!  It might also be helpful to identify in your post, that you are new to DCC with very limited understanding of DCC vernacular.  That should enhance a KISS response!  Hope this helps. 




Re: Rail joiners & PECO

Scott
 
Edited

I've been wrestling with Peco OO joiners, but I would much rather they were too tight than too loose.  I file the ends of the rails where I cut them (best way to check if any burrs is to gently run your fingertip over the ends).  Then I use really solid gloves before pushing/wiggling the two sections of track together.  [At my age, if I don't wear gloves for almost any sort of task, then I can usually virtually guarantee that I'll rip some sort of hole in my finger.]

Re: Older Shinohara Turnout Confusion

George Galyon
 

On the Shinohara double x-overs I am familiar with the "flipping all 4 crossbars" technique eliminates shorts on the "newer" code 100 doubles (the ones with the single crossbar) but it is not sufficient of and by itself for the older
code 100 double cross-bar doubles.  For the older double crossbar crossovers you need to do a little insulation work on the K crossings (the leftmost and the rightmost crossings) by coating the sidewalls of the rails on all 4 sides of the crossing point/s.  Nail polish will work but only for a little while.  I ended up using JB weld and we have run successfully for over 2 years now w/o shorting through the K or X crossings.  We also get through the point-stock rail gaps w/o shorting...maybe our gaps were on the high side of the spec. because some reports indicate that long cars can't make it through without shorting between the point rail and the stock rail.  I have run 80' passenger cars and a Westside Q-2 (4-4-6-4...solid frame) through 4 different Shinohara code 100 double X-overs w/o any shorting problems...could be that I am just lucky..

I do note that some of Alan Gartner's W4DCC authors have quite different experiences with the Shinohara doubles...they apparently had to go the "gap, switch,  and wire" route to get short-free performance.  I got the impression that we
were not working with the same hardware...

I will miss the Shinohara turnouts.  I had a layout with Shinohara code 70 track, turnouts, and a C70 double x-over.  Our current club layout has "very old" Shinohara C100 doubles and a "very old" Shionohara C100 three-way...all worked very well as long as you could jumper wire the point to closure rail connection (if necessary).   And you could see how the Shinohara family constantly improved their product over the years...they really paid attention.  Yes..their little contact
strips at the points could get jammed up...on occasion.  But that was fixable...no biggie. 

BTW...none of the commercially available turnouts are "perfect"...they all have their little gremlins. 

Re: K.I.S.S.

Greg Elmassian
 

Wow, well, I have some experience with DCC and also a lot of experience with teaching and supporting.

When someone asks "how do I program CV29", what do you do?

Here's several legitimate responses:

1. you need to assemble the base 10 number from the bits in the binary representation of CV29
2. you can get a CV calculator
3. you can run a program like JMRI to help you

What's best?

Well, you could determine in your mind what is best.

You could spend some time "interviewing" the person to try to give the best response.

You could explain a method and then see if that "took" and if not, try an alternative.

I read this thread and there's some opinions that "anyone can understand binary and you should too", and also "your opinion is bad because you are making someone spend money", and lots of other opinions.

I have my opinions on how I go about answering the question... but won't bring those here.

What I do want to state, and hope my examples help emphasize this: A beginner asking what is a simple question to him, does not necessarily result in a simple answer, and there's many ways to go about it.

If you believe that with very little information other than the "simple question" you can immediately give the "best answer", well, I look up to your capabilities, I surely cannot answer the "CV29 question" without knowing a lot more about the person asking, or spending a lot more time trying various explanations.

So, I think everyone has a point here.

Greg

Re: Rail joiners & PECO

Jennifer Lobo
 

I agree Scott. I use Peco Streamline code 100 track and rail joiners. Too tight is way better than too loose. I use a pair of long nosed pliers to push them on. I too file the ends...especially the inside of the rail where the burr stops the joiner from going on. I also squeeze the rail joiners twice with side cutters between the centre and the ends to make them even tighter.

The rule of thumb is:  Buy plenty of joiners as there will be wastage.

Regards Geoff Clarke OO gauge in Canada


On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 8:06:35 p.m. EDT, Scott <scottmac99@...> wrote:


I've been wrestling with Peco OO joiners, but I would much rather they were too tight than too loose.  I file the ends of the rails where I cut them (best way to check if any burrs is to gently run your fingertip over the ends).  Then I use really solid gloves before pushing the two sections of track together.  [At my age, if I don't wear gloves for almost any sort of task, then I can usually virtually guarantee that I'll rip some sort of hole in my finger.]

Re: DCC Meters

Rop Honnor
 

The accuracy of an AC volts reading when monitoring a DCC potential depends largely upon the sampling rate of your meter.

As stated DCC waveform is square format bi-polar not sinusoidal which is what an AC volts meter uses as its algorithm, therefore the higher the sampling frequency the more chance there is of an accurate DCC reading.

My three (cheapish) meters show a scatter of around +/- 5 volts measuring DCC on the AC volts scale as compared to the reading I see on my PicoScope set up for DCC.

Re: DCC Meters

Don Vollrath
 

See http://wiringfordcc.com/track.htm#a4
Except for checking or adjusting the voltage output of a booster, the accuracy of any DCC volt meter reading is unimportant unless it is obtained at the actual section of track with a significant amount of current being drawn. The simple reason is that you are probably trying to look for and/or verify voltage drops... which occur only when current is being drawn. 'Open circuit' voltmeter readings are misleading with any ordinary meter due to the peculiar DCC voltage waveform that may be present. See http://wiringfordcc.com/dcc_waveforms.htm 

Use Allan's topical index at http://wiringfordcc.com/site_map.htm to find discussions and answers to many oft-repeated questions on this forum.
DonV

Re: Older Shinohara Turnout Confusion

George Galyon
 

You can contact me at redvdub1@...
G. T. Galyon

Re: DCC Meters

Richard Gagnon
 

When I connected my Harbor Freight meters to the output of the Power Cab 
Had a loco on the track running. They all showed close to 13.6 vac. My Tek scope verified. I did the math conversion.
I figured whatever reading I got would be a bench mark as the loco was running fine and the system was.new
Rich



On Tuesday, May 21, 2019, 1:41 PM, Rop Honnor <robbie.honnor@...> wrote:

The accuracy of an AC volts reading when monitoring a DCC potential depends largely upon the sampling rate of your meter.

As stated DCC waveform is square format bi-polar not sinusoidal which is what an AC volts meter uses as its algorithm, therefore the higher the sampling frequency the more chance there is of an accurate DCC reading.

My three (cheapish) meters show a scatter of around +/- 5 volts measuring DCC on the AC volts scale as compared to the reading I see on my PicoScope set up for DCC.

How to set up locomotive

Lloyd Earnest
 

I have had my DCC set up for a couple of years. For the past year I I have been unable to do anything with it because of a health problem. I have the engines set up but can not remember how to put the numbers in the controller to run the train 🚂.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank yo