Date   
Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Dennis Cherry
 

Trying not to put insulated gaps on curves. and try to minimize rail joints on curves. if you need to add rail joints on curves first connect them as two straight sections then make the curve.
Look at some YouTube videos on connecting track will help you understand the process.

Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Dale Gloer
 

If you don't use insulated joiners and cut gaps with a razor saw or whatever?? be sure to fill the gaps with some insulating material like styrene.  If you don't you can be guaranteed that sooner or later one of those uninsulated gaps will close and you will tear your hair trying to find what is wrong.  As the saying goes "Been there, done that, got the Tee shirt".

Dale Gloer

Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Don Vollrath
 

Your sketch is correct and the reversing section between the balloon loops will work as intended. Simply place insulated joiners at the frog end of the turnouts as you indicate. No need to cut any gaps as far as that is concerned. If you plan on dividing up the layout more for signaling blocks or CB controlled power districts using insulating joiners at turnouts is the easiest way. But if you do cut gaps... be sure to fill them with plastic or epoxy to ensure that they will never close due to rail expansion or other movement.
DonV

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Don Vollrath
 

Wouter, I'm assuming that there are no crossover attachments between tracks except where there is an indicated turnout. [Exception - there is a 30 degree X in the tracks near the turntable.] All other 'intersections' in the sketch are at different vertical levels with no actual connections between tracks. I don't see any path selections that actually reverse the direction of train travel except for that one loop around the roundhouse. Putting insulating joiners or gaps at the three tracks leading upwards from that loop isolates them from the actual reversing loop. Complete the isolation of the loop at the first turnout going towards upper right.

DonV

Re: Wiring problem

Charles Cauble
 

I think I have the diagram of the loop in an albumn now.  any suggestions of where to locate the MRC auto reverser?
I'd appreciate any help.  Thanks.

Re: Wiring problem

Tim Johnson
 

Charles, I'm glad you were able to find the photo section, and get your track diagram posted.

You've already got both rails of the loop section gapped on both ends of the loop. You need to attach the auto reverser so that the wires from the main section go on the non-loop side of the reverser, and the wires from the loop track go into the loop side of the auto reverser.

Now, you have a branch off the right side of the loop to consider. Is this a spur, or does it reconnect with your main track somewhere further down? If it's a spur, no problem. But, if it reconnects to your main track you may have another loop depending on how it reconnects.

The further consideration is that you want to be careful that you don't have wheels bridging the gaps on either end at the same time. This is usually stated as no train longer than the loop from gap to gap. The idea is that you don't want the possibility of metal wheels bridging the gaps on one end at the same time as another set of metal wheels are bridging the gaps on the other end. That could also happen with two trains, one entering and the other exiting at the same time.

Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)
On 3/5/2019 1:50 PM, Charles Cauble wrote:

I think I have the diagram of the loop in an albumn now.  any suggestions of where to locate the MRC auto reverser?
I'd appreciate any help.  Thanks.

Re: Wiring problem

Tim Johnson
 

Oh, one thing to check before wiring in the auto reverser. Make sure the loop is in fact electrically isolated from the main track; both rails. If it's not, that would be your shorting problem.

Tim
Timothy A Johnson, Tucson, AZ (www.sbb-bls-bahnen.com)
European Train Enthusiasts, Central Arizona Chapter (www.ete.org)

Re: Wiring problem

Jay
 

Hi Charles,
Yes, it looks like a loop. 
Where the  + & - marks are about where both rails should be isolated.
I agree with Mr Tim on the other points on this.

Jay
AT&SF

Re: Wiring problem

Charles Cauble
 

Ok. Thanks for the info. I’ll give it a try and see if my system will stay up.  I don’t have any connections on the spurs and they work fine so far but was afraid my isolations on the turn outs was causing the problems. I’ve added back drops to the ground or positive sides after them at any dead track. I’ll retry after everything is checked with being hooked to the correct bus.   Thank you
charles

Re: Wiring problem

Charles Cauble
 

Hi, It's me again.  After days of trying, no success yet.  I've added a more detailed photo (Loop wiring) to the gallery. I have tried so many location for the MRC that i finally started using alligator clips.  i have managed to get all my "juiced" turnouts to work and  my locomotive will run everywhere either direction except at point A. There it shorts out either direction.  The tracks inside the loop are not connected.  It turned out that I had some "dead" spots and I've corrected them.  My NCE system does not short out until crossing "A".  I thought about moving "A"  just before turnout "4" but have hesitated because in order to stop derailments I soldered flex tracks for a smooth curve and I would hate to do it and it not work.  I have 2 MRC units and so far no luck.  my next step would either use a frog juicer or an AR1.  I thought maybe the MRC is not sensitive enough to reverse and a AR1 is supposed to be adjustable? Any suggestions?
Charles

Re: Wiring problem

Carl
 

Hello Charles:

Perhaps check the MRC units on some loose track. Just two sections connected with insulated joints. Power straight to one section and power through the MRC unit to the other. Then use your alligator jumpers to "short" across the gap. Test lamps would be nice here.

If they work this way, then you face more checking on your layout. I use a "beeper" with clips to check for any cross connections between sections. With the wires loose on your reversing section there should be NO beep at all.

Good Hunting, Carl.

On 3/10/2019 2:12 PM, Charles Cauble wrote:
Hi, It's me again.  After days of trying, no success yet.  I've added a more detailed photo (Loop wiring) to the gallery. I have tried so many location for the MRC that i finally started using alligator clips.  i have managed to get all my "juiced" turnouts to work and  my locomotive will run everywhere either direction except at point A. There it shorts out either direction.  The tracks inside the loop are not connected.  It turned out that I had some "dead" spots and I've corrected them.  My NCE system does not short out until crossing "A".  I thought about moving "A"  just before turnout "4" but have hesitated because in order to stop derailments I soldered flex tracks for a smooth curve and I would hate to do it and it not work.  I have 2 MRC units and so far no luck.  my next step would either use a frog juicer or an AR1.  I thought maybe the MRC is not sensitive enough to reverse and a AR1 is supposed to be adjustable? Any suggestions?
Charles

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Re: Wiring problem

Don Vollrath
 

Charles, I only see the photo you posted on March 4 in your photo folder. Is there a different one?
It is possible that the MRC reverser is just too slow to work with the NCE 5 amp command station and booster (or possibly faulty).
You should be able to verify action of the Auto-Reverser by simply using an alligator clip jumper across any isolating same-rail gap. The A-R unit should simply flip to make the net voltage across the gap to be zero (the same polarity) and the booster should never trip out. Make sure the wire gauge from the booster to the reverser and then to the loop track feeders is at least as big as 18 AWG, and that there are track feeders reasonably close to the isolating gaps in the track. I recommend using an OG-AR. But a dual frog joicer when installed properly should also work.

DonV 
 

Re: Wiring problem

Don Vollrath
 

Aaah. I found your other photo. [I expected it to be in the same 'album' as the first]
I suspect that the feed wires to the input of the A-R unit are a weak electrical service connection. Wiring to the input side of the A-R unit should be directly connected to the booster, NOT the constant polarity track leading up to the reversing loop. The difference???  A matter of the total electrical resistance in the current path, and therefore short circuit current available for the A-R unit to quickly sense a polarity mis-match and make a correction before the booster trips out. Using alligator clips with typical small gauge wire for testing doesn't help.

The A-R unit will naturally/always start up with the output phasing in the same direction. [Satisfying point B as you describe it.] Once the poor electrical connections to the A-R unit or to the track cause a delay in tripping a polarity mis-match at point A, causing the booster to trip, It will never recover as when the booster trips, operating power to the A-R unit is lost, causing it to restart when the booster recovers in the normal startup position... with matched polarity again at point B and the mis-match again at point A. Flip the polarity to the input of A-R unit to test my theory to see if now the issues occurs at point B.

Making your wiring more robust should certainly help... including good wire feeders near both sides of the isolating gaps on each rail.
DonV

Re: Wiring problem

Charles Cauble
 

Don,    would connecting  the input for the MRC to the bus wires (14 gauge) be connecting to the booster, correct? (NCE unit)

charles

Re: Wiring problem

Craig Zeni
 

My experience with the MRC breakers was that they were too slow; the NCE boosters always kicked out first.

Craig Zeni
Cary, NC
Despatched from my infernal Android

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 18:33 Charles Cauble <drbeetlebaum@...> wrote:
Don,    would connecting  the input for the MRC to the bus wires (14 gauge) be connecting to the booster, correct? (NCE unit)

charles

Re: Wiring problem

Charles Cauble
 

Well I soldered the yellow wires inside the loop right next to the double isolated rails (where + meets -) and connected the red wires to the bus lines. Only 6 inch wires either side of the MRC.  Unfortunately there is no change with good connections.  The system stays on and the loco shorts it at the A gap.  I went under and switched the red wires to opposite bus lines and now the whole system shorts.  I’m running out of ideas.  Any more would be appreciated.
charles

Re: Wiring problem

Tom O'Hara
 

I'll toss in an opinion which echoes those of others. The diagram looks OK for the reversers I use, which are by DCC Specialities. I don't know the MRC unit. So I'll pose a couple of ideas: If the MRC unit uses a mechanical relay, then it's probably too slow; and the system will short out first. If the MRC unit has an input and output which are connected backwards, then this could create havoc with your wiring depending on the rest of the layout. I prefer the former explanation at this point. 

.....Tom

--
... Tom

Re: Wiring problem

Jay
 
Edited

I used 2 MRC Reverser Units on the MWR Train Museum N Scale layout.
This is on a Digitrax system layout.
Both ends  of both sections were totally isolated.
That is, 2 isolating rail joiners at each end of each section.
They worked flawlessly. No hitch or short when entering or leaving the section.
They were connected directly to the DCC Buss.
It is interesting that you can't get it to work.
That was my 1st time using a reverser.
They are still working 5 years later.

Jay

Re: Wiring problem

Jay
 

Sorry for the multiple posts, my computer crashed twice while writing that post!

Jay

Fw: binding wires in DCC installation

Michael Shockley
 




I was watching a video and they mentioned binding the wires in a loco to keep them out of the drive.  It was something about a waxy threadlike material that sticks together when you press it to hold the wires.
Any idea what they were talking about?  I wish I were paying more attention before it got away from me.

Mike Shockley