Date   
Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Carl
 

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Carl
 

Hello Tom:

Next question: How will you control turnouts?

1) Master Dispatcher panel?

2) Point of use, controls at fascia or hand control at tracks?

I think you said this will be N or HO, so I would suggest using power routing at turnouts with quite a lead before you get to the frog. That way you won't be derailing at points thrown against the train. On Jim's layout we used power routing to also control signals, not prototypical, but useful.

Tell us more!

Carl.

On 3/3/2019 10:01 AM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your response. This is N Scale Kato Unitrack with #6 turnouts. I’d like to have a panel but I haven’t gotten to that point yet. The plan is to us the Digikeijs DR 5000 along with their DR4018 switch decoder and DR4101 switch motor interface. I’d like to make a lighted panel for switch position as well. I planned to isolate the turnouts and not use power routing, forgive me I thought DCC you powered all track at all times. 

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:11 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

Next question: How will you control turnouts?

1) Master Dispatcher panel?

2) Point of use, controls at fascia or hand control at tracks?

I think you said this will be N or HO, so I would suggest using power routing at turnouts with quite a lead before you get to the frog. That way you won't be derailing at points thrown against the train. On Jim's layout we used power routing to also control signals, not prototypical, but useful.

Tell us more!

Carl.

On 3/3/2019 10:01 AM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Carl,

The purpose of the layout is to run trains with my 7 year old and get him building different pieces. Not as structured as some. Being able to run multiple trains and for him to play in different sections. Thanks for the link!

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 9:20 AM, Carl <carl.blum@...> wrote:

Hello Tom:

My first question is: What is the purpose of your layout, how do you plan to operate? Run trains, switching, scenery, etc.

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.


http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

On 3/2/2019 6:58 PM, Tom G. via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Tom,

Were you able to view the image? I’ll attach it here in case. My intent isn’t to purposefully create reverse loops. I think by design I’m creating them inadvertently. I haven’t decided yet if I should alter the layout to avoid them. Aside from the extra cost it seems fairly simple? Thanks for the tip about the train fully fitting in the loop. I’m aware from another post but I will make sure. Thank you!



Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 2, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

Reverse loops can definitely be a problem, and I have seen reverse loops inside of reverse loops. Real problems! You'll probably solve this with auto-reversers, but you just have to make very certain that you aren't shorting between the rails. That means, in general, that you need your entire train inside the section that's reversing. There are exceptions, but it is a good rule to work with. It would help if you could publish a picture of your layout plan that some of us could study a bit.

.....Tom

Virus-free. www.avast.com

New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

w4dccqa@groups.io Notification <w4dccqa+notification@...>
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the w4dccqa@groups.io group.

File: RR Diagram.pdf

Uploaded By: rhemker

Description:
Looking for help in deciding where to place my blocks and do I need to use insulated joiners or is it OK to cut the track and use .010" styrene in the gaps?

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/files/RR%20Diagram.pdf

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom O Hara
 

I  saw the image, but I couldn't follow it through the places where the tracks came close together. If you could reprint/rescan in a format that would be a little more clear in those areas, I am sure a number of us would take a shot at it. Perhaps other people have a better view of it than I do. I have definitely hunted down those reverse loops on other layouts as lots of us have. I once analyzed a layout for a friend who had a loop inside a loop inside a loop. We redrew the layout.

.... Tom

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

I will color code the track lines

Thanks.
Tom

On Mar 3, 2019, at 1:40 PM, Tom O Hara via Groups.Io <tomohara314@...> wrote:

I  saw the image, but I couldn't follow it through the places where the tracks came close together. If you could reprint/rescan in a format that would be a little more clear in those areas, I am sure a number of us would take a shot at it. Perhaps other people have a better view of it than I do. I have definitely hunted down those reverse loops on other layouts as lots of us have. I once analyzed a layout for a friend who had a loop inside a loop inside a loop. We redrew the layout.

.... Tom

Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Bill Wilken
 

I usually use a razor saw to cut a thin gap in a section of very well glued down section of flextrack.  You may not see any need to fill the gap with plastic.  Insulated joiners typically result in a large gap and, if needed on a curve, can make it tricky to maintain the prevailing radius with a high degree of accuracy


On Mar 3, 2019, at 3:35 PM, w4dccqa@groups.io Notification <w4dccqa+notification@groups.io> wrote:

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the w4dccqa@groups.io group.

File: RR Diagram.pdf

Uploaded By: rhemker

Description:
Looking for help in deciding where to place my blocks and do I need to use insulated joiners or is it OK to cut the track and use .010" styrene in the gaps?

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.io/g/w4dccqa/files/RR%20Diagram.pdf

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom G.
 

Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Paul O
 

Tom et all, I did a cut&paste of your colored track layout.
In the PHOTOS section: "Tom G's Layout"
Hope this helps everyone.

Paul O

New Turnouts

Daniel Thomson
 

Recent posts have had elaborate "recipes" for prepping various turnouts to make them more DCC friendly. Please be aware that some manufacturers have been doing the same. We may need to add time stamp information in describing some brand's pre and post upgrades.

N Scale Peco - Insulfrog vs Electrofrog may all be going to an improved DCC friendly "Unifrog".
HO Scale Peco - Haven't heard any confirmation but might follow suit.
I will try to get more info on the above.

HO Scale Walthers Shinohara Code 83 - With Mr. Shinohara's retirement and no willing successor the bad news this last year was Walthers needed to find a new manufacturer. The good news is they found one. The great news is they will maintain the same dimensions and geometry of the Shinohara designs yet be adding the wish list of improvements brand new tooling will facilitate. Along with over-center spring action to hold points (no need to remove if switch machine driven) these are designed DCC Friendly including attached wiring leads. Even the ties will have starter holes on the underside for those who tack their track down. Walthers has announced the flex track, #4, #5 and #6 turnouts around April and larger turnouts late this year.

We will need to reevaluate the DCC Friendliness of these improved models as they hit the market.

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Tom O Hara
 

It is much easier to see with your colorizing.

Someone suggested that you take this to the layout design group, and I agree that is a better place to get more opinions. But I would make a few comments to get you started. The left end with the yard has at least three reversing loops... maybe four. Including ones inside others. These would be very difficult to wire and maintain the logic. The middle second goes around and around with not much operation connection to the rest of the railroad. The right hand end is a spaghetti  bowl of track that would be hard to build and goes around the same scenery in a confusing and, I think you'd find, very redundant path. There may be another reverse loop trapped between the right and left ends, but I am not sure.

Again, I think this is more a subject for the Layout Design group. But I really hope you'll reconsider the center and right sections to have less track and a simpler flow. I think you'd like the operation much better. 

.....Tom

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

whmvd
 

Hi Tom,

It *IS* a lot clearer, thanks!

So far, after looking for about 5 minutes, I spotted four reversing sections, but I haven't paid enough attention yet to what's going on top right. There might well be a fifth lurking there. Truth is, I'm getting a bit dizzy! :-)

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 02:02, Tom G. via Groups.Io <tjg81296=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Tom,

Hopefully this is clearer. The main concern is that I have the yard approachable from both sides. Would that be considered a reverse loop even if I insulate the rail joiners at the switches and bus power on both sides individually?

Am I incorrectly looking at the wiring?

I color coded to make it clearer. I know, it's not perfect but you can differentiate the lines a bit more.

I took a snip of each section Left, Center and Right. Links below:
If there's  a better way for all to view please let me know!
Thank you!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ur1n6s459r2safj/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutYard_LeftSide.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d9c8lb1xbh06kxi/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutCenter.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/84vf6h3t4edq9ld/TomG_W4DCCQA_LayoutMountain_RightSide.jpg?dl=0

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Mark Cartwright
 

Tom....

Three Suggestions as you are new to DCC and perhaps N Scale Unitrack
(but for now...I will only burden you with one)
1. Kato Unitrack (computer generated) plans can be a bit deceptive as to actual performance and even given spacing.
 Looking at your basic design, I believe you will be running short 4 Wheel Switchers and short trains of 5-7 cars.
That is not Passenger Trains of ABBA consists with upwards of 17-21 cars or even short to medium steam locomotives.
And in the retrospect...
That is after you have created this plan for actual use....
>>> You maybe sorry.
Every switch, every tight curve, every reverse loop and every graduation of track into an ever increasing percentage of grade is just looking for trouble.
Plus when ever possible Avoid S Curves or those transitions which even suggest such a thing.
So..
>>>  My first suggestion is to ONLY run the outside single track first. <<<
That is the Green Line.
This too will change as you test it and run it with your preferred locomotive and train length.
Once you have it up and running....
Step back and think again.....
FIRST = Find Success !
============================
There is so much more to learn and un-learn.
I would really like to see you SURVIVE your first layout.
:)) Mark

Consider this Man's Journey through N Scale as inspiration to your own efforts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUTS7qXQERX8n9x8dgIFxI0w&time_continue=373&v=DXEMFjB-u00

One more strong suggestion...
Share with us...Which of the many or few perhaps just one N Scale Locomotive you are considering operating upon your layout.
Not everything in N Scale will operate well even on 19 inch curves; nor through #6 Kato Switches.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/267707.aspx

And Yes, Manufacturers Lie; while most Train Store Clerks don't actually have an Operational N Scale Layout at Home.
They are simply doing what the Economics of Today demand and are throwing a wider loop to bring in a larger herd.
With that said....I tend to be a Maverick and test everything for and upon my layout.
My given radius for my N Scale Layout is currently 28 to 71 inches and includes mostly Parabolic Curves...Not 90 Degree Curves.

Re: Forgive my ignorance! Am I creating several reverse loops on my proposed layout?

Brian Eiland
 

Plus NMRA has a special interest group that plans layouts, you might look them up.

http://www.ldsig.org/

Carl.

************************************************
I looked up this site that you quoted, and I didn't detect that there was 'active help' in designing a new track plan. And it appeared as though some of the material is very dated (I saw one reference to 2006).

One of the reasons I was drawn to this conversation is that I am building a new double deck layout,...and I'm new to DCC,....and I am challenged by the electrical wiring. So I am definitely going to need help on wiring, and particularly reverse loops.

Brian

Re: New Turnouts

wirefordcc
 

I have added the new Kato Unifrog to my website.  See at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

If anyone else knows of changes of other turnouts that electrically change a turnout, please drop me a line.

Thank you

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC

Re: New file uploaded to w4dccqa@groups.io

Dennis Cherry
 

Trying not to put insulated gaps on curves. and try to minimize rail joints on curves. if you need to add rail joints on curves first connect them as two straight sections then make the curve.
Look at some YouTube videos on connecting track will help you understand the process.

Re: Wiring problem

Jay
 

Hi!
Your Pic did not come through.
2 questions, did you put isolators at both ends of the reverser section?
Are they far enough apart?

Jay

Re: Wiring problem

whmvd
 

Hello Charles,

Unfortunately, in-line pictures and attachments are not coming through. They have t be uploaded to the 'photos' section you will see when logged in to groups.io. Let us know when that's done, and somebody will be sure to chime in.

Wouter


On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 at 15:24, Charles Cauble <drbeetlebaum@...> wrote:
Just started back this year (since I retired at 70) after a 40 year absence from my old DC layouts I started wiring when I was 12.  Still have that train.  So far I’ve been able to slowly figure out wiring a new DCC layout in progress but now have run into a problem with what I think may be a loop.  When I’ve tried to add a MRC auto reverser it shorts my NCE 5 amp system down.  Here is a drawing of the section in question.  Any ideas on where to attach auto reverse?  Help would be greatly appreciated because at this point I’m stumped.

Charles Cauble



Re: New Turnouts

emrldsky
 

Are these the same as the ones in the older Kato HO turnouts? I know that some versions of those have jumpers to select power routing, or not.


Peace,

Mike G.


On 3/4/2019 6:59 AM, wirefordcc wrote:
I have added the new Kato Unifrog to my website.  See at:  http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

If anyone else knows of changes of other turnouts that electrically change a turnout, please drop me a line.

Thank you

Allan Gartner
Wiring For DCC