1. w4dccqa@groups.io
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Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

John White
 

I have a couple of the old AHM track cleaning cars that I use. I have been using Goo-Gone with these for several years. It has worked well for me, How often do I run my cleaner cars, no specific time frame, only when I notice sketchy performance or just feel the need to clean my track. It also cleans the wheel pretty well too. As for the engines specifically, I use the paper towel laid on the rail with Goo-Gone and run my engine on it to clean the wheels. All of this works pretty well. Now, if I feel a certain spot is acting up, I will take a small piece of Styrofoam and slightly wet it with G-G and rub it on the track and it cleans very well, as the Styrofoam comes out very very nasty. None of this leaves any slick spots to interfere with traction.  My two cents.
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

John White
 

Sorry guys for got to put my name on my Goo-Gone post
John White
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

scott toro
 

Are use the truck cleaning cart does a pretty good job I’m happy with it so far but I need to come up with another option on cleaning the truck as a second option but the first one works pretty well




On Tuesday, February 19, 2019, 10:34 AM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:

Any body want to comment on using Aero-Car ACT-6006 Track & Rail Cleaner? Good or Bad?

DonV

Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Greg Elmassian
 

I have a zimo and adjust mine for the scale I'm using, and my NCE booster had an adjustment, never experimented with the lower voltage since I used it on G scale, and needed the high end which was normally 21.3 volts, but they came from the factory usually at 16v and the trim pot looked like it was at about mid position.

Greg
Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Jay
 

Hi!
If you can get a Digitrax DCS100 or DB150, they also have a voltage adjustment potentiometer.
I was able to drive my DSC100 down to 10v track voltage in N Scale setting.

Jay
Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Al Silverstein
 

Dave,
 
It is nice to know there is at least one other DCC command system manufacturer that offers a command station with adjustable voltage to the track that covers a wide range of scales. Your comment about about not inexpensive is a bit under stated. After a very quick search of the internet I found only one retailer in North America (Streamlined Backshop www.sbs4dcc.com) and discounted the price tag is still $1280.
 
Al
 
 

From: David Heine
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 1:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Power for Z-Scale Decoders
 
The Zimo MX10 system has an adjustable track voltage of 10 - 24 V, in 0.2 V increments. The overcurrent setpoint of the main output is also adjustable from 1 - 12 A, in 0.1 A increments. But it is not inexpensive, and if you want the full output you need a big power supply. Factory defaults are typical for HO, 16 V and 5 A. But it can be adjusted from Z to G.
 
Dave Heine
Easton, PA
 
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Al Silverstein <alsilverstein@...> wrote:
A little history here might help clear up the DCC voltage to the rails issues on several different levels.
 
At one point in time many years ago the NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices did include voltage to the rail ratings for the scales of N, HO, O/S, and G. Over the last 10-15 years the NMRA has modified and/or deleted many Standards and Recommended Practices. The DCC Standards and Recommended Practices are a perfect example. Several of the DCC Standards have been modified and most of the Recommended Practices have been deleted. Unless you know where to look finding the older Standards and Recommended Practices are very difficult. I have since DCC was first introduced back in 1994 tried to keep up with any and all information dealing with DCC. It has not always been an easy task. I have a complete set of the DCC Standards and Recommended Practices as they were back in 2002.
 
In the latest Electrical Standard S-9.1 (Version 2006), on page 3, there are four charts which indicated the various voltages of the different scales for DCC. If you are curious about the voltages please follow this link:
 
 
Now lets take a minute to look at the DCC Decoders. If one were take a close look one would find that any DCC decoder is supposed to accept an input range anywhere from about 12 volts to 22 volts. This holds true for most non sound mobile decoders. Sound decoders in general cannot handle voltages above, I believe, about 18 volts. This is a component issue dealing with sound chips. But all things being equal it is the motor in the scale that determines what voltage is needed on the rails.
 
Now as for the voltage output to the rails the issue deals with the market place. HO has been the most popular scale for at least 30-40 years and HO layouts have a history of using 0-12 volts DC for operation. With HO being by far the most popular scale the manufacturers lean in the direction of HO for most of their support. Just look at Walthers. Walthers today only produces two general catalogs: O and HO-N-Z. It was only a couple of years ago that Walthers produced three catalogs: O, HO, and N/Z. The number of products in HO in their HO-N-Z catalog is much larger than their N scale products which is much larger than their Z scale products.
 
DCC manufacturers are in the business of making a profit and thus they place their major support to the market with the greatest potential for profit which is the HO market. Thus most of the DCC command systems are HO scale based when it comes to voltage to the rails. There is a general drop of about 1.4-1.8 volts through a decoder thus in order to get the 12 volts to the motor the voltage on the rails must be at least 13.8 volts.
 
It is easily understandable why most of the DCC command system manufacturers have only one voltage to the rails output and that is most of the purchasers of their command stations are HO scale modelers. Besides N and Z being much smaller markets when it comes to model railroading note that N and Z scale decoders are more expensive because the parts need to be smaller and also note that it is much more difficult to install a decoder in a N and Z scale model railroad engine. I have a HO 0-4-0 yard switcher that is over 35 years old and it was easy to install a N scale decoder in it once I isolated the motor from the frame. It appears to me that over the last several years there has been a general drop in the number of model railroaders in the scales of O/S and above.
 
The only DCC manufacturer that I am acquainted with that provides easy to adjust voltage to the rails is Digitrax. All of their command stations with the exception of the Zephyr have an external voltage to the rails adjustment switch for N-HO-O/G with the output voltage dependent upon the command station power source. The current PS615 is great for HO and below while the PS2012e can easily handle all scales to include the scales above HO. Digitrax a couple of years ago added to their product line the UP6Z which can easily adjust the voltage to the rails for Z scale operation to about 8 volts.
 
The above paragraph is not intended to indicate that Digitrax is any better than any other DCC command system but only that the Digitrax hardware is geared to handle a wider variety of model railroading scales. Each DCC command system manufacturer has chosen which market it wants to support. When choosing a DCC command station or any other DCC related product one must make the decision that best fits his, or her, situation. I operate on several different layouts from time to time and I enjoy every moment no matter what the scale or which command system is being used.
 
The one aspect of DCC that I appreciate the most is the ability to move with my engine without the need of having to keep track of the rail power routing switches.
 
Al Silverstein

Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Don Vollrath
 

Any body want to comment on using Aero-Car ACT-6006 Track & Rail Cleaner? Good or Bad?

DonV
Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

David Heine
 

The Zimo MX10 system has an adjustable track voltage of 10 - 24 V, in 0.2 V increments. The overcurrent setpoint of the main output is also adjustable from 1 - 12 A, in 0.1 A increments. But it is not inexpensive, and if you want the full output you need a big power supply. Factory defaults are typical for HO, 16 V and 5 A. But it can be adjusted from Z to G.

Dave Heine
Easton, PA 

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Al Silverstein <alsilverstein@...> wrote:
A little history here might help clear up the DCC voltage to the rails issues on several different levels.
 
At one point in time many years ago the NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices did include voltage to the rail ratings for the scales of N, HO, O/S, and G. Over the last 10-15 years the NMRA has modified and/or deleted many Standards and Recommended Practices. The DCC Standards and Recommended Practices are a perfect example. Several of the DCC Standards have been modified and most of the Recommended Practices have been deleted. Unless you know where to look finding the older Standards and Recommended Practices are very difficult. I have since DCC was first introduced back in 1994 tried to keep up with any and all information dealing with DCC. It has not always been an easy task. I have a complete set of the DCC Standards and Recommended Practices as they were back in 2002.
 
In the latest Electrical Standard S-9.1 (Version 2006), on page 3, there are four charts which indicated the various voltages of the different scales for DCC. If you are curious about the voltages please follow this link:
 
 
Now lets take a minute to look at the DCC Decoders. If one were take a close look one would find that any DCC decoder is supposed to accept an input range anywhere from about 12 volts to 22 volts. This holds true for most non sound mobile decoders. Sound decoders in general cannot handle voltages above, I believe, about 18 volts. This is a component issue dealing with sound chips. But all things being equal it is the motor in the scale that determines what voltage is needed on the rails.
 
Now as for the voltage output to the rails the issue deals with the market place. HO has been the most popular scale for at least 30-40 years and HO layouts have a history of using 0-12 volts DC for operation. With HO being by far the most popular scale the manufacturers lean in the direction of HO for most of their support. Just look at Walthers. Walthers today only produces two general catalogs: O and HO-N-Z. It was only a couple of years ago that Walthers produced three catalogs: O, HO, and N/Z. The number of products in HO in their HO-N-Z catalog is much larger than their N scale products which is much larger than their Z scale products.
 
DCC manufacturers are in the business of making a profit and thus they place their major support to the market with the greatest potential for profit which is the HO market. Thus most of the DCC command systems are HO scale based when it comes to voltage to the rails. There is a general drop of about 1.4-1.8 volts through a decoder thus in order to get the 12 volts to the motor the voltage on the rails must be at least 13.8 volts.
 
It is easily understandable why most of the DCC command system manufacturers have only one voltage to the rails output and that is most of the purchasers of their command stations are HO scale modelers. Besides N and Z being much smaller markets when it comes to model railroading note that N and Z scale decoders are more expensive because the parts need to be smaller and also note that it is much more difficult to install a decoder in a N and Z scale model railroad engine. I have a HO 0-4-0 yard switcher that is over 35 years old and it was easy to install a N scale decoder in it once I isolated the motor from the frame. It appears to me that over the last several years there has been a general drop in the number of model railroaders in the scales of O/S and above.
 
The only DCC manufacturer that I am acquainted with that provides easy to adjust voltage to the rails is Digitrax. All of their command stations with the exception of the Zephyr have an external voltage to the rails adjustment switch for N-HO-O/G with the output voltage dependent upon the command station power source. The current PS615 is great for HO and below while the PS2012e can easily handle all scales to include the scales above HO. Digitrax a couple of years ago added to their product line the UP6Z which can easily adjust the voltage to the rails for Z scale operation to about 8 volts.
 
The above paragraph is not intended to indicate that Digitrax is any better than any other DCC command system but only that the Digitrax hardware is geared to handle a wider variety of model railroading scales. Each DCC command system manufacturer has chosen which market it wants to support. When choosing a DCC command station or any other DCC related product one must make the decision that best fits his, or her, situation. I operate on several different layouts from time to time and I enjoy every moment no matter what the scale or which command system is being used.
 
The one aspect of DCC that I appreciate the most is the ability to move with my engine without the need of having to keep track of the rail power routing switches.
 
Al Silverstein

Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Al Silverstein
 

A little history here might help clear up the DCC voltage to the rails issues on several different levels.
 
At one point in time many years ago the NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices did include voltage to the rail ratings for the scales of N, HO, O/S, and G. Over the last 10-15 years the NMRA has modified and/or deleted many Standards and Recommended Practices. The DCC Standards and Recommended Practices are a perfect example. Several of the DCC Standards have been modified and most of the Recommended Practices have been deleted. Unless you know where to look finding the older Standards and Recommended Practices are very difficult. I have since DCC was first introduced back in 1994 tried to keep up with any and all information dealing with DCC. It has not always been an easy task. I have a complete set of the DCC Standards and Recommended Practices as they were back in 2002.
 
In the latest Electrical Standard S-9.1 (Version 2006), on page 3, there are four charts which indicated the various voltages of the different scales for DCC. If you are curious about the voltages please follow this link:
 
 
Now lets take a minute to look at the DCC Decoders. If one were take a close look one would find that any DCC decoder is supposed to accept an input range anywhere from about 12 volts to 22 volts. This holds true for most non sound mobile decoders. Sound decoders in general cannot handle voltages above, I believe, about 18 volts. This is a component issue dealing with sound chips. But all things being equal it is the motor in the scale that determines what voltage is needed on the rails.
 
Now as for the voltage output to the rails the issue deals with the market place. HO has been the most popular scale for at least 30-40 years and HO layouts have a history of using 0-12 volts DC for operation. With HO being by far the most popular scale the manufacturers lean in the direction of HO for most of their support. Just look at Walthers. Walthers today only produces two general catalogs: O and HO-N-Z. It was only a couple of years ago that Walthers produced three catalogs: O, HO, and N/Z. The number of products in HO in their HO-N-Z catalog is much larger than their N scale products which is much larger than their Z scale products.
 
DCC manufacturers are in the business of making a profit and thus they place their major support to the market with the greatest potential for profit which is the HO market. Thus most of the DCC command systems are HO scale based when it comes to voltage to the rails. There is a general drop of about 1.4-1.8 volts through a decoder thus in order to get the 12 volts to the motor the voltage on the rails must be at least 13.8 volts.
 
It is easily understandable why most of the DCC command system manufacturers have only one voltage to the rails output and that is most of the purchasers of their command stations are HO scale modelers. Besides N and Z being much smaller markets when it comes to model railroading note that N and Z scale decoders are more expensive because the parts need to be smaller and also note that it is much more difficult to install a decoder in a N and Z scale model railroad engine. I have a HO 0-4-0 yard switcher that is over 35 years old and it was easy to install a N scale decoder in it once I isolated the motor from the frame. It appears to me that over the last several years there has been a general drop in the number of model railroaders in the scales of O/S and above.
 
The only DCC manufacturer that I am acquainted with that provides easy to adjust voltage to the rails is Digitrax. All of their command stations with the exception of the Zephyr have an external voltage to the rails adjustment switch for N-HO-O/G with the output voltage dependent upon the command station power source. The current PS615 is great for HO and below while the PS2012e can easily handle all scales to include the scales above HO. Digitrax a couple of years ago added to their product line the UP6Z which can easily adjust the voltage to the rails for Z scale operation to about 8 volts.
 
The above paragraph is not intended to indicate that Digitrax is any better than any other DCC command system but only that the Digitrax hardware is geared to handle a wider variety of model railroading scales. Each DCC command system manufacturer has chosen which market it wants to support. When choosing a DCC command station or any other DCC related product one must make the decision that best fits his, or her, situation. I operate on several different layouts from time to time and I enjoy every moment no matter what the scale or which command system is being used.
 
The one aspect of DCC that I appreciate the most is the ability to move with my engine without the need of having to keep track of the rail power routing switches.
 
Al Silverstein

Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Jay
 

Hi!
Spraying the CRC directly onto the track is not a recommended practice.
It is best applied in a thin layer on the track.
Then let it dry.
There are 3% grades on my layout & I have no slippage issues when I run 25 unit trains.

Jay
Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

whmvd
 

Mark,

Try G-Scale at 12V. That's virtually a non-starter!

Wouter


On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 at 18:18, Mark Gurries <gurriesm@...> wrote:
With respect to the USA

Z scale track voltage and Z scale decoder voltage ratings are not directly related.  The voltage rating of the DCC electronics are typically the same as N and HO.  30V is common standard of electronic parts used.  The voltage rating of the power devices used to drive the motor does not define the physical size of the parts.  

The NMRA does not define specific voltage for specific scales.  They have one standard for all scales: 12V.  Does not change with DCC.

The purpose of having a specific track voltage as a standard is for reliability purposes for both the motor and lamps.

DCC track voltage typically is a bit higher than the DC track voltage because of voltage losses inside the DCC decoder.  The goal is to get 12V at the motor terminals, the same motor operating condition under DC without a decoder.



On Feb 12, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Jay <jayfmn@q.com> wrote:

Hi!
Z Scale recommended voltage should be 9V.
12V is pushing the upper limit of the true Z Scale decoders in Z Scale engines.
The UP6Z is recommended by Digitrax for operating Z scale.

Jay

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Glenn
 

It also makes a good glue.

I have a friend with a 30-year old layout. 90% of his switches are Atlas Custom Line with the attached switch machine.

I like to call him quick draw. It seems he always a can of CRC in his hand and uses it liberally.

On one visit he asked me about a stuck switch.He admits to spraying CRC into the slot on top of the switch machine.

"It worked three times. Now it will not move, even by hand."

I gave him a tube of lock graphite.

Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Vollrath
Sent: Feb 18, 2019 12:25 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] Cleaners & Lubricants

I agree. CRC 2-26 is listed first as a lubricant tnen as a cleaner. Putting on the track will help remove unwanted residue, But... it will also act as a lubricant which will reduce the friction and therefore the pulling power of locos. Works great for other sliding type electrical connections.  
DonV

Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Carl
 

Hello Mark:

I've converted Lionel three rail locomotives and the 12 volt limit is a problem. Lionel and MTH locomotives are wired for 18 volts and some barely move at 12 volt. I'm not quite willing to change to 12 volt motors.

Carl.

On 2/18/2019 1:18 PM, Mark Gurries wrote:
With respect to the USA

Z scale track voltage and Z scale decoder voltage ratings are not directly related.  The voltage rating of the DCC electronics are typically the same as N and HO.  30V is common standard of electronic parts used.  The voltage rating of the power devices used to drive the motor does not define the physical size of the parts.  

The NMRA does not define specific voltage for specific scales.  They have one standard for all scales: 12V.  Does not change with DCC.

The purpose of having a specific track voltage as a standard is for reliability purposes for both the motor and lamps.

DCC track voltage typically is a bit higher than the DC track voltage because of voltage losses inside the DCC decoder.  The goal is to get 12V at the motor terminals, the same motor operating condition under DC without a decoder.

,_

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Mark Gurries
 

With respect to the USA

Z scale track voltage and Z scale decoder voltage ratings are not directly related.  The voltage rating of the DCC electronics are typically the same as N and HO.  30V is common standard of electronic parts used.  The voltage rating of the power devices used to drive the motor does not define the physical size of the parts.  

The NMRA does not define specific voltage for specific scales.  They have one standard for all scales: 12V.  Does not change with DCC.

The purpose of having a specific track voltage as a standard is for reliability purposes for both the motor and lamps.

DCC track voltage typically is a bit higher than the DC track voltage because of voltage losses inside the DCC decoder.  The goal is to get 12V at the motor terminals, the same motor operating condition under DC without a decoder.



On Feb 12, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Jay <jayfmn@q.com> wrote:

Hi!
Z Scale recommended voltage should be 9V.
12V is pushing the upper limit of the true Z Scale decoders in Z Scale engines.
The UP6Z is recommended by Digitrax for operating Z scale.

Jay

Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Don Vollrath
 

I agree. CRC 2-26 is listed first as a lubricant tnen as a cleaner. Putting on the track will help remove unwanted residue, But... it will also act as a lubricant which will reduce the friction and therefore the pulling power of locos. Works great for other sliding type electrical connections.  
DonV 
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Greg Elmassian
 

It was recommended long ago by Lewis Polk of Aristo-Craft.

I tried using it as a track cleaner, and it did "break down" all the junk on the rails and wheels on my outdoor G scale loco.

It also reduced friction so locos would not climb grades and made an even dispersal of black goo on all my rails and wheels.

Took a while to clean it off. My recommendation is that it makes rails too slippery, and if you use it, clean it off completely after, and don't get it on your wheels.

Greg
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Alex Hempel
 

Yeah, gotta be careful. The stuff I linked does not specifically state that it is plastic safe, so I'll probably refrain from using it until I know more.

Thanks

Alex
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Jay
 

Hi Alex,
I am not sure.
The CRC 2-26 here in the states is "Plastic Compatible"
I am not sure yours is, I would check for that because it could damage the ties in the track.
Amazon has it here: https://www.amazon.com/CRC-Plastic-Multi-Purpose-Precision-Lubricant/dp/B07GBD9GZ7.

Jay
Re: Cleaners & Lubricants

Alex Hempel
 

Hi Jay,

just making sure because I live on a different continent: is this the CRC2-26 you're talking about?

https://www.repco.com.au/en/brands/crc/crc-2-26-electrical-spray-400g/p/A3698939

Cheers

Alex
Re: Power for Z-Scale Decoders

Jay
 

Hi Don,
Inside of the UP6Z it appears to have 3 resistor arrays.
With a Capacitor & a Fusible link to track output.
That & 6 Loconet ports.

Jay
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