Date   
Re: Buss Wires

Jay
 

I used 14g Romex on mine for a buss.
My N scale layout is only 35' long & it works fine.

Jay

Re: Buss Wires

dcesharkman
 

Sorry, the Electrical Engineer in me feels compelled to respond: 

Wire is more dependent on quality than size. Twisting is also anecdotal, it does not work in every case to help. I have run 60 feet of  an n scale layout using 16 gauge high quality wire without twisting and have no issues. If you think about it, and 8 Amp controller with 15V track power  is 120 WATTS or the old fashioned light bulb. And lamps use 16 gauge wire because it is 60HZ AC power. But they do not worry about a signal quality just power. And the wire is cheap because lamp cords are not very long and not good for the digital signals of DCC but they do not need to be. 

The twisting adds a bit of capacitive reactance to possibly counteract the normal inductive reactance of the wire. This is thought to keep the waveform from degrading. The proper term is Dispersion. The fact is that most of the real source of dispersion is due to the impurities in the wire. And the larger the wire, the more impurities and the more reactance. There is a grave mistake using the AWG guidelines because they were empirically derived for DC and 60HZ AC, where the DCC signal is a composite of the 8K pulse repetition square wave constructed to contain modulated higher frequencies within the square waves. These other frequencies are much higher than the 8 K pulse frequency. This is why the AMG is not correct.

The fact that DCC has a limit of around 300 feet is because of the harmonics of the modulated information in conjunction with the 8K pulse. There is what is called a harmonic extinction function that is behind the length limitation. Near that point, the waveform becomes unrecognizable because it is getting close to maximum dispersion. This means the information in the signal is lost. These effects are not seen in most cases because the layouts are not close to that large.

David

PhD Electrical Engineering and Mathematics

Wire quality is more important than the size. And with high quality wire, twisting has no effect on signal dispersion. That is all controlled by the actual signal and its harmonics. 

NCE grounding

Bob Macionis
 

I've gotten myself confused about proper grounding of the command station & boosters.  I have an NCE command station with a separate power source, a PB105 booster with a separate power source, and a PB5 booster that includes a power source inside the box.  The separate power source cords have a ground wire.  Are those wires grounded to the command station & 105 booster (attached to a screw on the bottom of the booster box?)  The PB5 power cord has no ground wire, so none is needed?  I understand the command station & boosters should be grounded together.  So that means a wire from the command station box to a booster box then to the other booster box?

Re: NCE grounding

Don Vollrath
 

Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Bob Macionis
 

The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box).  But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station.
 
 

From: Don Vollrath
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] NCE grounding
 
Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Steve Haas
 

>>>> The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box). <<<<

 

Correct.

 

>>>> But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  <<<<

 

No.  The third wire you ask about should _NOT_ be connected to any of the NCE boxes.  Doing so can cause a ground loop.

 

>>>> The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station. <<<<

 

Correct. The ground wire (Also referred to as a “bond wire” or “common” runs between the various NCE boosters. It typically comes into play when an engine moves over the gaps in the rails between booster boundaries.  In the case of engines (usually older, such as brass steam – there are others) where the pickup from the right rail is the drivers on the right side of the engine and the pickup from the other rail is via the tender wheels on the left side of the tender, the ground between these particular boosters is used to complete the circuit while the engine is straddling the gap.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA

 

Re: NCE grounding

vincent marino
 

Bottom of both has a ground screw connect them to each other. 


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 2:39 PM Bob Macionis <macionis@...> wrote:
The command station has a 5 amp booster.  NCE says to run a ground between the command station and all boosters (connecting to a screw on the bottom of the box).  But what should I do with the ground wires coming from the 5 amp power sources needed for the 105 and command station?  This is not the 110volt plug wire.  From the power source there are 3 wires- two screw into the booster, plus there is a ground.  Does this ground need to be attached somewhere?  The pb5 with the built in power source has no ground wire, so I guess it just needs a wire connected to the 105 and command station.
 
 
From: Don Vollrath
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:29 PM
To: w4dccqa@groups.io
Subject: Re: [w4dccqa] NCE grounding
 
Bob,
You can verify if the actual ground prong on the 120Vac power plug is connected to the PB5 booster case or not with a simple ohmmeter check. Does the NCE command station also have an internal booster with a DCC track output? If so the case of that unit needs to be bonded to the cases of the PB105 and PB5.

DonV

Re: NCE grounding

Gary Chudzinski
 

Bob,

The whole issue of ground can be confusing.  If I recall correctly, and I would need to look to be sure, but I have two vintages of power transformers for my NCE command station and 5 Amp boosters.  The earlier version has an electrical ground wire and plug (3 wires); the newer version has only two power wires.  The third wire (usually green) is the wire you do * NOT * want to connect to any part of your NCE boxes.  I cut mine back to make it unusable.  Otherwise, common ground only your NCE boxes together.  It was simple for me to run a DCC common ground wire around my layout as I have three booster districts.  I don't think it makes any difference whether your command station and boosters are in the same box. Just ground your NCE boxes together; but * NOT * your transformer ground wire!  I think it was Mark Gurries that had a very good  commentary on this topic many months back.  I seem to recall his explanation of the difference between earth ground (the ground in our household wiring), often called common ground, and the common ground for your NCE system, as well as the risk/dangers of connecting the two together.  I hope I stated this correctly without any confusion.

Gary Chudzinski

Block detection question

rbryce2@...
 

I have a question.  I am trying to set up block detection.  I will be using NCE's DB20 detectors.  I want 3 detection zones, all will be powered by the same booster.

 

Can I isolate the positive rail and leave the common rail intact or do I need to break both rails.  .

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

+++++++++        ++++++++++++        +++++++++++ 

 

                        

Breaking just one rail would really be much easier for my setup.  Again, not creating booster districts, just detection districts, all powered from the same booster.

 

(I hope the crude drawing I tried to make comes out correctly)

Re: Block detection question

Don Vollrath
 

You only need to gap one rail. It makes sense to monitor the same side rail in each block. Be sure to gap both ends of the rail for each block. You can provide multiple rail feeders... AFTER the main feeder for the block passes through the BD20. 

DonV.

DCC Wiring question

Robert Bryce <rbryce2@...>
 

Question:  DCC wiring.  Can I bundle wires 1  2  3  and  4 into the same wire run as long as they are all twisted.

 

Re: DCC Wiring question

Don Vollrath
 

If you are asking about the wiring of occupancy detection sections, the answer depends on the length of the run. It is better to place the detectors out by the track sections being detected to minimize possible capacitance of twisted wiring pairs or other pick-up interference that might cause an empty track section to be falsely claimed as being occupied. If distances are relatively short, say less than 10 feet,the chance of interference is rather small. So yes... you can run multiple feeders of twisted wiring pairs along the same path with minimum interference.

DonV 

A question on DCC track wiring using yard point triple turnouts

sherryjimmy6116@...
 

I am doing a small yard layout and in it I am using four yard point triple turnouts. These are Shinohara not for DCC so I will modify each of the 12 switches for DCC, but I wondering where I should attach the track power leads so as to get the best performance. I will attach track power to each of the 12 spurs, but not sure about the rail between the switch mechanisms on the triple turnouts. Any help would be appreciated. Jim

Re: A question on DCC track wiring using yard point triple turnouts

Don Vollrath
 

Generally the older Shinohara turnouts were of the power routing type with the point rails picking up power from the stock rails and passing it on to not only the frog, but also the exiting frog rails. So take a close look at your switches... AND the pattern of track that you intend to connect them. [It is difficult for others to envision your planned configurations.] Then be sure to provide rail gaps or insulating joiners so that there will be no short circuits created with any and all possible combinations of throw bar positions. Now go back and discover what rail sections have no power or are of fixed polarity. Provide power feeders to those rails. It may be helpful to make a truth table to identify the needed polarity of every rail in the turnout system. This might be an ideal place to use frog juicers to correct polarity issues.

DonV 

New to Model Railroading and DCC

Ty Webb
 

Hello -  
My name is Ty and at the young age of 73 I have decided to become a model railroader.   I'm vacillating between HO or N Scale but I do know that I will be using NCE for my DCC.  

Looking forward to the adventure.

Ty Webb

Re: New to Model Railroading and DCC

Don Vollrath
 

Welcome Ty.
NCE is a good choice for an easy to use DCC system. As for the scale... How good is your eyesight? You can pack a lot of RR is a relatively small area in N scale. but it is more difficult to work with due to the smaller size.  Be sure to visit local model RR expositions and/or clubs to get a better feel of what can be accomplished in either scale. Develop your interests.. Building structures, scenery or running a realistic railroad. If you will be considering DCC sound in your locos HO scale gives more variety of options. But limit your overall plans to something practical so you can complete modeling steps in relatively small stages.

DonV

Re: New to Model Railroading and DCC

vincent marino
 

unless your eyes are very strong I'd go to HO. You'll love the NCE system. I have the wireless 10 amp system that powers up all 10 locos at one time w/o an issue. The track you choose in the design stage is as important as anything you do right now, because that decision directly corresponds to the turnouts you'll use. Do your research on turnouts then design the track to it not the other way around. Also don't go under 22" radius your larger locos won't handle anything smaller. Good luck. Vinnie

Sincerely,
Vincent Marino
Vincent Marino
Affordable Roofing Contractors
Project Manager
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On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:02 PM, Thomas Webb <tbw.trains@...> wrote:
Hello -  
My name is Ty and at the young age of 73 I have decided to become a model railroader.   I'm vacillating between HO or N Scale but I do know that I will be using NCE for my DCC.  

Looking forward to the adventure.

Ty Webb


Re: A question on DCC track wiring using yard point triple turnouts

Don Vollrath
 

Be sure to read through the discussions and photos of various turnout issues and modifications on Allan's site www.wiringfordcc.com 
DonV

Re: New to Model Railroading and DCC

Glenn
 

Don't stop too fast, I am right behind you (71).

You might also consider On30. You have the size of O-scale in the space of HO. Yes, building are larger, however there are smaller ones available.

Most On30 equipment will go around 18" curves. I am using 12". I have a Heisler which goes around them. I also lean towards the 18' cars. I hope Bachmann will come out with passenger equipment near that size.

NCE is okay, there is also Digitrax, but choose the one your hobby shop sells, and find someone who will let you try them. Personally I favor the Bachmann EZ command for its simplicity, I have two, plus a walk around.

I have chosen Peco Set Track switches, they have a sharper curve and are only 6" long. Also the points lock into position without needing a switch machine or ground throw. You can add these later.

I have room for a medium size layout, but I am working on a 30" x 10' layout built on two hollow core doors. One, life is too short. Two portability, I am a loner and attend shows. I can set the layout on top of the dining room table, shhh! I use milk crates to raise the layout for when/if I hold an open house. Also the doors will stand against the wall for storage.

Of  course what you build depends on what you like to do. I did have a point to point layout, mostly a switching operation. As I go older, 50ish, I wished I could just let trains run. The new 30" wide layout will let my old bones operate from one side of the layout.

What ever you choose do it to enjoy it. And remember "It's my layout."

Glenn

Subject: [w4dccqa] New to Model Railroading and DCC

Hello -  
My name is Ty and at the young age of 73 I have decided to become a model railroader.   I'm vacillating between HO or N Scale but I do know that I will be using NCE for my DCC.  

Looking forward to the adventure.

Ty Webb

Re: A question on DCC track wiring using yard point triple turnouts

sherry robyn <sherryjimmy6116@...>
 

Thanks Don.


On Thursday, August 2, 2018 9:41 AM, Don Vollrath <donevol43@...> wrote:


Generally the older Shinohara turnouts were of the power routing type with the point rails picking up power from the stock rails and passing it on to not only the frog, but also the exiting frog rails. So take a close look at your switches... AND the pattern of track that you intend to connect them. [It is difficult for others to envision your planned configurations.] Then be sure to provide rail gaps or insulating joiners so that there will be no short circuits created with any and all possible combinations of throw bar positions. Now go back and discover what rail sections have no power or are of fixed polarity. Provide power feeders to those rails. It may be helpful to make a truth table to identify the needed polarity of every rail in the turnout system. This might be an ideal place to use frog juicers to correct polarity issues.

DonV