Date   
Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Richard Gagnon
 

I have done that. A DZ125 in the 0-6-0 loco and a Tsunami micro in the tender. You need all wheels picking up.

Rich




On Monday, December 18, 2017, 10:13 PM, bigboy@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:




        


You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender.  At the time I did this, I used a sound only decoder so I didn't have a light on the tender.  My particular tender didn't have a light on it any.  If you want a rear light on your tender, using a motor/sound decoder like Soundtraxx sells.

Then all you need to do is set both decoders to the same address.  This will work on any DCC layout and many locomotives.  Ideally, you use a locomotive that picks up power in both the locomotive and tender.  If not, you might have to run one or two wires between them.

Allan
Wiring For DCC


TinyCad

Edward Sargent
 

I am looking at using TinyCad to document the Club's wiring plan and to plan future work. Has anyone done this and has TinyCad library symbols for DCC components been developed?

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

sgaugian
 

Thanks.  I'm familiar with the two decoder approach.  Might be what I do in this case.  

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

sgaugian
 

Thanks for the clarification on RailPro.  I should have referred to the web site shown below write up on the different systems.  I read it over the summer, but forgot a few things since then.  Lots of useful battery powered ops info if you haven't read it before, check it out.  

Dave

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Gary Chudzinski
 


Allan writes:

>You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender. 


And how do you handle change CV's in just one of the decoders?

Gary Chudzinski

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Vollrath, Don <don.vollrath@...>
 

Good question Gary. Several alternatives for using two decoders.

1.      Provide an electrical plug between loco and tender so you can separate them and program each separately on the programming track or mains. (Do #4 during the installation?)

2.      Provide tiny electrical switches so that you can disconnect either decoder from track power (only one side is necessary) during programming of the other one without interference.

3.      Set the decoders up with different addresses and consist them together when running.

4.      Set them up with different short addresses for programming and the same long address for running. Switch between short and long addresses for programming vs running.

 

Use programming on the main. Recognize that you don’t need to read the decoder to program CVs.  #4 is the easiest to do, but it is likely that #1 will be there already for other practical reasons.

 

DonV

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 10:10 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

 




 

Allan writes:

 

>You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender. 

 

 

And how do you handle change CV's in just one of the decoders?

 

Gary Chudzinski




Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

whmvd
 

Hi Gary,

There's a rather nifty way to do that. First you do the initial set-up separately. Before you make their address the same, consider if you're going to go for long or short addresses. If long, then take care that the SHORT addresses of the two decoders are different. If short, make sure that the LONG addresses are different. Then set them both to the same long or short address that you actually want to use.

Now, if you want to change CVs in one but not the other, set the combination on the program track and change ONLY the addressing from short to long or the other way round (depending on your choices). Take it off the programming track and put it on the main. Now each of the decoders can be programmed on the main separately. When done, reverse the trick on the programming track (again by ONLY changing adderessing mode from short to long or vice versa), so that the originally desired addresses are once again in (combined) use.

It probably soun ds more confusing written down than it is when you think about it.

I would highly recommend using JMRI for the addressing mode change, as it changes only what needs changing and a lot of the bit calculations can be forgotten about.

Wouter

On 20 December 2017 at 04:10, Gary Chudzinski chudgr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 


Allan writes:

>You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender. 


And how do you handle change CV's in just one of the decoders?

Gary Chudzinski


Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender TAM Valley

Glenn
 

I briefly glanced Pete's page.

Note that the Tam Valley line has been taken over by Dead Rails Installs -- http://deadrailinstalls.com/

The Tam Valley DRS1 system is not a control system, but a system the sends signals to a receiver that in turn sends them to the decoder via R/C. A transmitter is attached to the output of a DCC base station that sends wireless signal to a receiver which in turns sends them to a decoder.

Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: "davidghorn@... [WiringForDCC]"
Sent: Dec 19, 2017 10:49 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: RE: [WiringForDCC] Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender



Thanks for the clarification on RailPro.  I should have referred to the web site shown below write up on the different systems.  I read it over the summer, but forgot a few things since then.  Lots of useful battery powered ops info if you haven't read it before, check it out.  

Dave

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Brian Eiland
 

Allan writes:
You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender.

Isn't this something that is applicable with BLI Blueline locos, where the sound is already installed, but the motor decoder needs to be added,...( I think I got that correct?).

I had heard that this type 2 decoder installation could present problems, particularly to new guys fooling around learning DCC ,...(me, who has a number of the Blueline locos)
Brian



On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Wouter van Doorn vandoornw@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 

Hi Gary,

There's a rather nifty way to do that. First you do the initial set-up separately. Before you make their address the same, consider if you're going to go for long or short addresses. If long, then take care that the SHORT addresses of the two decoders are different. If short, make sure that the LONG addresses are different. Then set them both to the same long or short address that you actually want to use.

Now, if you want to change CVs in one but not the other, set the combination on the program track and change ONLY the addressing from short to long or the other way round (depending on your choices). Take it off the programming track and put it on the main. Now each of the decoders can be programmed on the main separately. When done, reverse the trick on the programming track (again by ONLY changing adderessing mode from short to long or vice versa), so that the originally desired addresses are once again in (combined) use.

It probably soun ds more confusing written down than it is when you think about it.

I would highly recommend using JMRI for the addressing mode change, as it changes only what needs changing and a lot of the bit calculations can be forgotten about.

Wouter

On 20 December 2017 at 04:10, Gary Chudzinski chudgr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:
 


Allan writes:

>You can avoid running lots of wires between a locomotive and a tender by using two decoders.  I've put a locomotive decoder in the boiler and put a sound decoder in the tender. 


And how do you handle change CV's in just one of the decoders?

Gary Chudzinski



Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Paul O
 

To all:

That is the purpose of CVs 15 and 16.

CV15: The CV Unlock register

CV16: The CV Lock ID Code register

 

See the appropriate tech ref manual for your decoder for an explanation.

 

Paul O


Virus-free. www.avg.com

Re: TinyCad

jazzmanlj
 

You'll need to generate your own symbols and this is relatively simple. TinyCad is a schematic capture program meant to interface with PWB software.

Leonard Jaskiewicz
len.jask@...

Re: TinyCad

Edward Sargent
 

Thanks, I figured as much and have created 3 so far.   

 

From: WiringForDCC@... [mailto:WiringForDCC@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 1:38 PM
To: WiringForDCC@...
Subject: [WiringForDCC] Re: TinyCad

 

 

You'll need to generate your own symbols and this is relatively simple. TinyCad is a schematic capture program meant to interface with PWB software.

Leonard Jaskiewicz
len.jask@...

Re: Wireless DCC tether between steam engine and tender

Gary Chudzinski
 

DonV and Wouter,

Thanks for the suggestions. Actually, I have installed two decoders in the past and wanted to see if there is a simpler  way to program each decoder separately than the method I used.

Gary C

Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

Mark Gurries
 


On Dec 14, 2017, at 1:00 PM, modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



In Allan Gartner's Wiring For DCC website, Booster Network Wiring, RECOMMENDATION #4-6: Run a Heavy Ground Wire Between Your Boosters:, the wiring diagram indicates cutting the two ground wires in the booster Loconet wires and adding a large gauge ground connection between the command station and the each of the boosters.  (Yes he was discussing wiring Digitrax equipment which is what my club has.)

The stated reason is to prevent ground loops causing possible erratic behavior.  

On Mark Gurries' website or the only mention of ground loops is in stating not to connect the booster network ground to house earth ground.  Again, erratic behavior may result.

Larry Puckett, the DCCguy.com website also advocates the ground wire but does not mention ground loops.  He did not mention them in his recent Model Railroader article.

Question: does the large gauge booster network ground wire and the parallel Loconet ground wires constitute a ground loop that may cause problems.  Or are they just wires in parallel.  


Your mixing up two separate problems.

1) Ground Loops involving Earth Ground versus DCC system ground (Booster Ground/ Booster common)

2) The problem of Booster Track Current flowing in Loconet Ground wires.


Your question has nothing to do with Earth Ground.  So #1 is not being discussed.   Your question is #2.


Setup: Two Booster Districts meet each other at a rail joint consisting of double insulated rail joiners (gaps).   Booster X powers the track on the left side of the rail joiners and Booster Y powers the track on the right.  (This has nothing to do with existence of DCC circuit breakers).

Situation:  As a given engine moves across the double insulated rail joiners, the engine will become powered by BOTH boosters at the same time until is completes the crossing.

Operating Problem:  Any locomotive with offset wheel pickup will stall unless the booster X and booster Y have a ground connection between them.  Even if you have a locomotive with all wheel pickup, electrical pickup is never perfect and there is the potential for the locomotive to have offset wheel pickup momentarily for multiple of reasons.  In this case the locomotive will not cross cleany unless you have ground connection between the two boosters involved.

Electrical Problem.  At that moment in time where offset wheel pickup is taking place, the only way current can continue to flow is if the locomotive current is carried between the two boosters via the ground wire.  No ground wire, then you have an open circuit situation and the locomotive loses power.

LOCONET SITUATION:   The loconet cable consist of 6 26AWG or 28AWG wires.  Two of these wires are in parallel to form the “ground" connection.  The ground wires carry the following current

1) Loconet return current.   Very Low current.  Loconet communication.
2) Railsync return current.  Low current.  Booster Signal communication and low current power source for plug in throttles and some loconet devices.
3) Booster ground current.   Momentary Very HIGH Current.  The current flowing depends on the size and efficiency of the locomotive motors for a given scale.

These small gauge wires are NOT designed to support high current flow.   The voltage drop in the wire will be proportional to the length of the wire and the magnitude of the current flowing in it.   

LOCONET PROBLEM:  When you have a locomotive with an offset wheel pickup problem, the locomotive current will flow in the LOCONET Ground wires.  These Motor currents are much much higher the Loconet or railsynce current in the same ground wires.  The higher the current draw of the motor, the higher the voltage drop that will appear across the ground wire between the two boosters.  The momentarily very high voltage drop can prevent reliable communication of Loconet or Railsynce or both at the same time.  The problem can go away one the locomotive completes the power district crossing.

SOLUTION:  Since we cannot change the gauge of the wire in the Loconet cable to support the motor currents, then a parallel wire of a significantly higher gauge must be run between the boosters ground terminals.   This effectively reduces the voltage drop in the loconet ground.  Furthermore since it runs directly from booster to booster with lower resistance than found in the Loconet cable, the motor current will freely choose the lower resistance path and flow in the large wire between the two boosters removing most of that current flow from Loconet wires.  In other words, you greatly relieved the Loconet ground of the responsibility of supporting locomotive current flow.  Loconet and Railsynce communication will be more reliable now that it is being unmolested by the independent and very noisy locomotive current.


Is it a ground loop?  Technically yes.   But in this specific case the design of the loconet bus brings with it an electrical design flaw straight from the factory.   The permitting of Locomotive current to flow on the Loconet ground.    With small layouts and/or small scale layouts in practice this is not much of a problem.  The loconet cables are short and/or the locomotive currents are low.   But it become a big problem on very large layouts and/or large scale layouts where the loconet cables are long and the locomotive current can be very high.   Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.   


In the case of my club all the Loconet connections are daisy chained with a lot of intermediate connections.  So the large gauge wire is shorter with no interrupting connections.

Great.  That is the best you can do.


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

nwsteamer
 

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] wrote:
Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.

Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

Chris Elliott
 

I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.

Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

Mark Gurries
 

A true ground loop requires the following.

1) Two parallel current paths.

2) The mixing of two independent currents that should not be mixed together.

Eliminate one or the other eliminates the problem.

The current we do not want to be shared on the Loconet ground is the locomotive current. Fortunately we know that the undesirable locomotive currents originate and end only at the booster locations.

So the solution is to find a way for the locomotive current to flow down the booster ground wire and not the loconet ground.

Additional interesting facts are

1) Booster do not use the Loconet signals. They only monitor the RailSync signals on the Loconet cable during normal operation.

2) Railsync is a lot less sensitive to the problems related to ground current

We can use these two pieces of information to help identify the solution.

To eliminate the "ground loop" would require Splitting the loconet cable right at the command station location into two separate Loconet busses.

a) A Loconet bus for all devices other than the boosters. Call this Throttle Loconet.
b) A Loconet bus for just the boosters. Call this Booster Loconet

With the Throttle Loconet bus and the Booster Loconet bus only tied to each other at a SINGLE point where the command station is located, the two Loconet bus grounds are connected but they will not have the same paths and therefor will not have the same currents on their respective ground wires.

With the Throttle Loconet, we know we only have Railsync signal current and Loconet signal current on the ground.
With the Booster Loconet, we know we only have Railsync signal current and Locomotive current on the ground.

Now you run the Booster Loconet ONLY between Boosters. Do not connect it to any other type of Loconet Device. It only connect to the Command Station at the command station location with a RJ splitter. Now there is no reason for locomotive current to flow down the Throttle Loconet Bus because there is no booster connected to it. It is an Open Circuit as far a Locomotive current goes.

Just doing that one step alone breaks the locomotive current off the Throttle Loconet bus for all the devices that need the reliable loconet signal communication. Technically we now no longer have a ground loop since we are not mixing independent currents much anymore. The only remaining problem is the fact that on the Booster Loconet we can still have momentarily high DC current flowing down the small gauge wires. We solve that by running our large wire gauge wire between the booster grounds. Yes the wires are in parallel, but they are NOW carrying the same current at the same time between the exact same locations. There is no ground loop.

One could cut the ground wires out of the Booster Loconet cable to force 100% of the locomotive ground current to run on the large wire but with reasons to do so are greatly diminished. The locomotive current will naturally choose the large gauge wire since it the path of least resistance.




On Dec 24, 2017, at 9:50 AM, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the
Loconet 'ground' wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet
'grounds' at the boosters is valid. Do you agree?


On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC]
wrote:
Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop
to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils.


------------------------------------
Posted by: nwsteamer <modelrr@...>
------------------------------------

http://www.WiringForDCC.com
------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links


Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com

Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

Mark Gurries
 

Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com



Speaker connections on TSC 21-HWM 21 pin connectors

Richard Sutcliffe
 

I am installing a 21pin sound decoder in a P2K RDC

I have a a TCS 21-HWM connector that has solder pads for adding wires. There are 9 pads are nicely labled with NMRA colours on the pin side, and 3 none tined pads on the other side. These 3 pads are not labled.
I need to find the connections for the speaker, and am curious about the third pad.
I haven’t found any detail on these 3 pads on the TCS website.

Dick Sutcliffe
General Manager
Bradley, Roger & Tidewater Rwy.
Cariboo Traction Company

Re: Large Gauge Ground Wire in Parallel with Loconet Gound Wires == Groundloop?

Chris Elliott
 

Yes, I had installed a heavy gauge “home ground” between the boosters and command station. 

Sent from planet earth

On 27 Dec 2017, at 11:15, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

 

Did you have the ground wire installed?


On Dec 24, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Chris Elliott cpelliott100@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:



I’ve found that the new digitrax boosters won’t come on line if the ground wires in the loconet cables are cut.
Chris Elliott

Sent from planet earth

On 25 Dec 2017, at 04:50, nwsteamer modelrr@... [WiringForDCC] <WiringForDCC@...> wrote:

Mark,

The way I read this statement the large gauge wire in parallel to the 
Loconet 'ground'  wires does constitute a 'loop' and could cause a 
reliability problem.

Thus, the recommendation in Allan Gartner's website to cut the Loconet 
'grounds' at the boosters is valid.  Do you agree?

On 12/24/2017 05:03 AM, Mark Gurries gurriesm@... [WiringForDCC] 
wrote:
> Adding the large gauge parallel ground wire permitting a ground loop 
> to be establish is the LESSER of the two evils. 




Best Regards,

Mark Gurries
Electrical Engineer
DCC Website & NMRA DCC Clinics: www.markgurries.com