Topics

Pallet design


John Haine
 

Hello everyone, recently transferred here from the old group, where I'd lurked for some time.  I've done a bit of theoretical work on Synchronomes that I published in Horological Science News, happy to share if any interest. 

Reason for posting here though is that I'm just acquiring a Synchronome, without its pendulum so I'll have to make a new one, and also a new pallet I think.  I have FH-J's little book but the pallet drawing there is not fully dimensioned, also the acting face curve is circular but in "Electric Clocks" he goes to some length to explain how to generate the optimum curve.  In particular the drawing in the little book doesn't show the shape of the top face of the pallet, leading to the acting face.  Though the roller shouldn't bear on this for very long one would think it should be a dead roll but the drawing seems to show it straight with just a small up-slope.

So please could anyone point me to, or supply, a fully dimensioned drawing?

Thanks, John.


Ian Richardson
 

Hi John,

Sorry I can't help you with accurate dimensions, but I believe that there are some myths surrounding the "ideal profile" for the Synchronome impulse pallet.

I have what is reckoned to be one of the earliest Synchronomes (No.40) which has the impilse pallet in the form of a blunt nose, largely convex rather than concave.  This clock is referred to in Bob Miles' book.  I also have other, normal, Synchronomes and although the general form of the pallet is the same, there are some minor variations.  Furthermore, I made one from scratch for one of my clocks which, like yours, was missing its pendulum and I made it a freehand copy others in my possession.  All seem to work perfecty well.

If you watch the action of the impulse, the roller falls on the sharp edge between the flat and the concave surfaces (or so it should, according to the setting up instructions.  If the correct settings are used for all the air gaps, contacts etc, the roller is lifted off the concave surface well before it has completed its full roll down.  In clock No.40, the impulse is entirely delivered as the roller rolls over the convex nose.

I have worked on many Synchronomes over the years, and find that with some the rod has a tendency to shudder on impulse.  This effect is exagerated if you run the pendulum without the bob (which I sometimes do while setting up after extensive repair).  Obviously, there should not be any shudder in the rod and maybe that is due to the roller not following the "ideal" path as shown by F H-J or maybe it's because the roller drops before contacting the pallet surface.

It is also worth noting that in the well-known and highly reliable Gent C7 Pulsynetic clocks, there is no concavity on the sloping face of the pallet - the roller lands just before the edge and rolls down the incline before being thrown off by the reset.

I offer these observations maybe to stimulate discussion but also to caution against worrying too much about making yourself a new pallet.  So long as it looks right, it will probably work!!

As a final point I believe that amongst the most important details are the point at which the gravity arm is released and where it falls on the pallet.  That is determined mainly by the length of the gathering arm and the orientation of the latch which is released by the countwheel.  Get that wrong and the rod shudders quite a lot!

Good luck,
Best regards,
Ian R
Macclesfield, UK




-----Original Message-----
From: John Haine <john.haine@...>
To: synchronome1 <synchronome1@groups.io>
Sent: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:00
Subject: [synchronomeelectricclock] Pallet design

Hello everyone, recently transferred here from the old group, where I'd lurked for some time.  I've done a bit of theoretical work on Synchronomes that I published in Horological Science News, happy to share if any interest. 

Reason for posting here though is that I'm just acquiring a Synchronome, without its pendulum so I'll have to make a new one, and also a new pallet I think.  I have FH-J's little book but the pallet drawing there is not fully dimensioned, also the acting face curve is circular but in "Electric Clocks" he goes to some length to explain how to generate the optimum curve.  In particular the drawing in the little book doesn't show the shape of the top face of the pallet, leading to the acting face.  Though the roller shouldn't bear on this for very long one would think it should be a dead roll but the drawing seems to show it straight with just a small up-slope.

So please could anyone point me to, or supply, a fully dimensioned drawing?

Thanks, John.


Peter Torry
 

Hello John,

I attach a copy of a drawing detailing the pallet and gathering jewel etc from a book that describes the Synchronome system so hopefully it will give you some clues. There are some pencilled notes on the page that may not have copied well but I can always send them to you if required.

Kind regards

Peter



On 10/01/2019 12:00, John Haine wrote:
Hello everyone, recently transferred here from the old group, where I'd lurked for some time.  I've done a bit of theoretical work on Synchronomes that I published in Horological Science News, happy to share if any interest. 

Reason for posting here though is that I'm just acquiring a Synchronome, without its pendulum so I'll have to make a new one, and also a new pallet I think.  I have FH-J's little book but the pallet drawing there is not fully dimensioned, also the acting face curve is circular but in "Electric Clocks" he goes to some length to explain how to generate the optimum curve.  In particular the drawing in the little book doesn't show the shape of the top face of the pallet, leading to the acting face.  Though the roller shouldn't bear on this for very long one would think it should be a dead roll but the drawing seems to show it straight with just a small up-slope.

So please could anyone point me to, or supply, a fully dimensioned drawing?

Thanks, John.
_._,


Ian Lonsdale
 

Hi John,

 

I’m not sure if this might help –  see attached PDF - “An Electric Master Clock - Eliot Isaacs FBHI”

 

This is just an extract - Part 4 of the whole document

 

This book’s a great read and a testament to what can be achieved with a bit of dedication – I’d upload it (approx. 28mb) but I don’t seem to be allowed to upload files

 

Kind regards

Ian Lonsdale

 

From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of John Haine
Sent: 10 January 2019 12:01
To: synchronome1@groups.io
Subject: [synchronomeelectricclock] Pallet design

 

Hello everyone, recently transferred here from the old group, where I'd lurked for some time.  I've done a bit of theoretical work on Synchronomes that I published in Horological Science News, happy to share if any interest. 

Reason for posting here though is that I'm just acquiring a Synchronome, without its pendulum so I'll have to make a new one, and also a new pallet I think.  I have FH-J's little book but the pallet drawing there is not fully dimensioned, also the acting face curve is circular but in "Electric Clocks" he goes to some length to explain how to generate the optimum curve.  In particular the drawing in the little book doesn't show the shape of the top face of the pallet, leading to the acting face.  Though the roller shouldn't bear on this for very long one would think it should be a dead roll but the drawing seems to show it straight with just a small up-slope.

So please could anyone point me to, or supply, a fully dimensioned drawing?

Thanks, John.


Chris
 

As has already been said: The shape is not really critical.
Nor even the length, if you move the pendulum sideways in the chops to compensate.
My No876 had obviously been run for many years with the pallet twisted at a large angle.
Such that the impulse shoulder had been badly worn away obliquely.
It was probably shame that its gorgeous "rosewood" case has been painted white gloss on the outside.

My immediate answer was to file the curve to straighten the impulse shoulder.
Then I spun the pallet in the lathe on a length of rod to reshape the impulse curve with a carefully matched tool.
This was a terrifying experience despite using the highest speed to reduce the hideous impacts.
I quickly chickened out and finished reshaping the curve with tightly wrapped abrasive paper around a metal rod. 
After initial reluctance to run reliably on a flimsy wooden workshop wall it hasn't really paused for the last 30 years.
So removing the white gloss must have done the trick. 


Geoff
 

I am Geoff, been interested in clocks for 50 years but never joined a group. Please can someone tell me about the publication mentioned  "Horological Science News".

I once went to a clock meeting at Greenwich near the Naval College. It was arranged by an esteemed group and there were distinguished type of people there. I mean University professors, people with  big qualifications.
I felt out of my depth although being a reasonably educated person! 

They were interested in my plaited and braided telephone cords I make for my telephone hobby.   Basically a shoelace with tinsel wire in which can be plaited ot braided in any colour to make original looking telephone cords of the fifties.  
The reason I mentioned this is because some of the clock enthusiasts needed a similar black thin cotton wire for wiring clocks. I lost touch with them as I moved abroad, perhaps someone will remember me who is in both groups.

I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


John Haine
 

Wow!  Thanks for all the quick replies.

Ian, noted that the ideal shape is probably not going to work any better.  Even the "ideal" shape is based on the notion that a raised-sine impulse waveform is optimum, with no real reason why.  As I have a little CNC mill I could form the shape almost as easily as the circular arc.

Peter, I think those pages are almost the same as what I have in "Electric Clocks and How to Make Them" - again the drawing lacks one dimension.

Ian, thanks for that article - very useful!  I think that is from HJ?  Could you say when it was published please?  Now that HJ is online from 1858 to 2000 I should be able to download the whole series.

Geoff, "HSN" is a newsletter published by the NAWCC, sort of the American equivalent of the BHI, it's for oddities like me who still find the physics of pendulums and things interesting.  Not a very wide circulation I fear.

Thanks again all - I'm sure I'll have many more questions.

John.


RICHARD ADAMEK
 

Hi Geoff,

Were you with Dictograph by any chance? there's something familiar about your surname - my (late) Dad was Vic Adamek, based in Norwich but sent all over the place before the TR takeover.

Best Regs

Richard Adamek

I cut my teeth early, while I was still at junior school, he had me holding back or setting on masters at 'tame' sites while he did others elsewhere in parallel nearly halving the time his round should have taken ;)




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 18:09:30 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

SNIP
I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


Geoff
 

I was with Telephone Rentals who took over Dictograph and I had to work on some. Dictograph systems! They supplied the loudspeaking phones on the Royal Yacht and in Buckingham Palace. T.R. took them over to get the kudos of the Royal Warrant. These telephone companies used Master slave clock systems, which is how I came to be interested in clocks! One master clock I have, from the Silent Electric Clock company was used in a Naval supplies yard, Clarence yard in Gosport.
There is some connexion between this company and Magneta clock systems as one engineer/inventor helped found Magneta. Can anyone expand on this??



On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 16:04:49 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:


Hi Geoff,

Were you with Dictograph by any chance? there's something familiar about your surname - my (late) Dad was Vic Adamek, based in Norwich but sent all over the place before the TR takeover.

Best Regs

Richard Adamek

I cut my teeth early, while I was still at junior school, he had me holding back or setting on masters at 'tame' sites while he did others elsewhere in parallel nearly halving the time his round should have taken ;)




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 18:09:30 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

SNIP
I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


Simon Taylor
 

OK, the mystery of Magneta…

Originally, Magneta was a company founded by Martin Fischer. The master clock had a generator that was tripped every minute by a wind up movement. They was a limit to how many clocks it could run.

There is an article that partially cover this here… http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/pages/history.html

About 1907, Someone, who name temporarily escapes me, bought the Magneta company. Meanwhile…

George Bennet Bowell had started the Silent Electric Clock Company in Goswell road, London. They used the hipp toggle in their ½ second pendulum clocks. Again, around 1907 ish, the same guy that bought Magneta also bought the SECC. Either he, or the later owners BVC (British Vacuum Cleaners) dropped the one minute system and adopted the Hipp toggle SECC system but renamed it Magneta. 
Ever since then, you can find two completely different systems that bear the name Magneta.

It’s a similar story to Hornby Railways. Frank Hornby started Meccano and also made Hornby O gauge and the smaller Hornby-Dublo (OO). they got bought out by Tri-ang (triang- railways) and basically the Tri-ang system was kept being renamed Tri-ang Hornby. Tri-ang went bust, the Tri-ang name got sold and so the railway section reverted to Hornby railways, bearing no resemblance to the original Hornby trains.

It does happen!

Simon GPO clocks

On 10 Jan 2019, at 22:24pm, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

I was with Telephone Rentals who took over Dictograph and I had to work on some. Dictograph systems! They supplied the loudspeaking phones on the Royal Yacht and in Buckingham Palace. T.R. took them over to get the kudos of the Royal Warrant. These telephone companies used Master slave clock systems, which is how I came to be interested in clocks! One master clock I have, from the Silent Electric Clock company was used in a Naval supplies yard, Clarence yard in Gosport.
There is some connexion between this company and Magneta clock systems as one engineer/inventor helped found Magneta. Can anyone expand on this??



On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 16:04:49 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:


Hi Geoff,

Were you with Dictograph by any chance? there's something familiar about your surname - my (late) Dad was Vic Adamek, based in Norwich but sent all over the place before the TR takeover.

Best Regs

Richard Adamek

I cut my teeth early, while I was still at junior school, he had me holding back or setting on masters at 'tame' sites while he did others elsewhere in parallel nearly halving the time his round should have taken ;)




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 18:09:30 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

SNIP
I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


--
Simon GPO Clocks

http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/index.html


Simon Taylor
 

sorry 1917 Joseph Molden took over Magneta and also the SECC in the early 1920’s.

I really should read my own articles...

Simon GPO clocks

On 10 Jan 2019, at 22:47pm, Simon Taylor via Groups.Io <smktaylor1@...> wrote:

OK, the mystery of Magneta…

Originally, Magneta was a company founded by Martin Fischer. The master clock had a generator that was tripped every minute by a wind up movement. They was a limit to how many clocks it could run.

There is an article that partially cover this here… http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/pages/history.html

About 1907, Someone, who name temporarily escapes me, bought the Magneta company. Meanwhile…

George Bennet Bowell had started the Silent Electric Clock Company in Goswell road, London. They used the hipp toggle in their ½ second pendulum clocks. Again, around 1907 ish, the same guy that bought Magneta also bought the SECC. Either he, or the later owners BVC (British Vacuum Cleaners) dropped the one minute system and adopted the Hipp toggle SECC system but renamed it Magneta. 
Ever since then, you can find two completely different systems that bear the name Magneta.

It’s a similar story to Hornby Railways. Frank Hornby started Meccano and also made Hornby O gauge and the smaller Hornby-Dublo (OO). they got bought out by Tri-ang (triang- railways) and basically the Tri-ang system was kept being renamed Tri-ang Hornby. Tri-ang went bust, the Tri-ang name got sold and so the railway section reverted to Hornby railways, bearing no resemblance to the original Hornby trains.

It does happen!

Simon GPO clocks

On 10 Jan 2019, at 22:24pm, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

I was with Telephone Rentals who took over Dictograph and I had to work on some. Dictograph systems! They supplied the loudspeaking phones on the Royal Yacht and in Buckingham Palace. T.R. took them over to get the kudos of the Royal Warrant. These telephone companies used Master slave clock systems, which is how I came to be interested in clocks! One master clock I have, from the Silent Electric Clock company was used in a Naval supplies yard, Clarence yard in Gosport.
There is some connexion between this company and Magneta clock systems as one engineer/inventor helped found Magneta. Can anyone expand on this??



On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 16:04:49 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:


Hi Geoff,

Were you with Dictograph by any chance? there's something familiar about your surname - my (late) Dad was Vic Adamek, based in Norwich but sent all over the place before the TR takeover.

Best Regs

Richard Adamek

I cut my teeth early, while I was still at junior school, he had me holding back or setting on masters at 'tame' sites while he did others elsewhere in parallel nearly halving the time his round should have taken ;)




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 18:09:30 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

SNIP
I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


-- 
Simon GPO Clocks

http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/index.html



--
Simon GPO Clocks

http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/index.html


Geoff
 

Thanks for the excellent story of Magneta!  The GPO master clocks were mostly made by them. I seem to think the Hipp Toggle mechanism is better made on the SECC masters. I certainly prefer their  slave clocks with their silent action, well nearly silent!

On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 16:47:17 GMT-5, Simon Taylor <smktaylor1@...> wrote:


OK, the mystery of Magneta…

Originally, Magneta was a company founded by Martin Fischer. The master clock had a generator that was tripped every minute by a wind up movement. They was a limit to how many clocks it could run.

There is an article that partially cover this here… http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/pages/history.html

About 1907, Someone, who name temporarily escapes me, bought the Magneta company. Meanwhile…

George Bennet Bowell had started the Silent Electric Clock Company in Goswell road, London. They used the hipp toggle in their ½ second pendulum clocks. Again, around 1907 ish, the same guy that bought Magneta also bought the SECC. Either he, or the later owners BVC (British Vacuum Cleaners) dropped the one minute system and adopted the Hipp toggle SECC system but renamed it Magneta. 
Ever since then, you can find two completely different systems that bear the name Magneta.

It’s a similar story to Hornby Railways. Frank Hornby started Meccano and also made Hornby O gauge and the smaller Hornby-Dublo (OO). they got bought out by Tri-ang (triang- railways) and basically the Tri-ang system was kept being renamed Tri-ang Hornby. Tri-ang went bust, the Tri-ang name got sold and so the railway section reverted to Hornby railways, bearing no resemblance to the original Hornby trains.

It does happen!

Simon GPO clocks

On 10 Jan 2019, at 22:24pm, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

I was with Telephone Rentals who took over Dictograph and I had to work on some. Dictograph systems! They supplied the loudspeaking phones on the Royal Yacht and in Buckingham Palace. T.R. took them over to get the kudos of the Royal Warrant. These telephone companies used Master slave clock systems, which is how I came to be interested in clocks! One master clock I have, from the Silent Electric Clock company was used in a Naval supplies yard, Clarence yard in Gosport.
There is some connexion between this company and Magneta clock systems as one engineer/inventor helped found Magneta. Can anyone expand on this??



On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 16:04:49 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:


Hi Geoff,

Were you with Dictograph by any chance? there's something familiar about your surname - my (late) Dad was Vic Adamek, based in Norwich but sent all over the place before the TR takeover.

Best Regs

Richard Adamek

I cut my teeth early, while I was still at junior school, he had me holding back or setting on masters at 'tame' sites while he did others elsewhere in parallel nearly halving the time his round should have taken ;)




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 18:09:30 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:

SNIP
I think I can explain what I meant above by saying that with those distinguished people, it didn't seem like a HOBBY!!! They were very staid and serious. I have telephone engineering qualifications and used to repair master clock systems and clocking-in....clocking out clocks. However I felt like a boy just starting as an apprentice with people that had been doing clocks for 50 years!

Kind regards   Geoff Mawdsley

Libre de virus. www.avast.com


--
Simon GPO Clocks

http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/index.html


RICHARD ADAMEK
 

Close then but no cigar ;)

With Dictographs scrappage policy I was brought up amongst a sea of electromechanical bits to add to Meccano creations which aided development of my tinkering skills no end

The early (in my memory) masters were Dictograph badged Magneta's with a Hipp toggle, while Ironically I have a case for one (I had turned it into a cassette rack) although I still have a few Magneta slave mechs. By the time I developed an interest for them he had scrapped all the early ones :( but I've a couple of the metal cased Dicto badged T & N masters a Gents C7 and a near complete PO36 (or37, memory is poor) but not enough decent wall space to run them together.

IIRC the ECS / TR masters had a very compact release / reset mechanism compared to most, what was the wear life like ?

Have you browsed the website which Jan van Harten's is involved with ?  http://wp.clockdoc.org/about-us/  lots of pics and info on history and diferent makes and models, you may learn more.

Best regs

Richard


On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:24:34 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:


I was with Telephone Rentals who took over Dictograph and I had to work on some. Dictograph systems! They supplied the loudspeaking phones on the Royal Yacht and in Buckingham Palace. T.R. took them over to get the kudos of the Royal Warrant. These telephone companies used Master slave clock systems, which is how I came to be interested in clocks! One master clock I have, from the Silent Electric Clock company was used in a Naval supplies yard, Clarence yard in Gosport.
There is some connexion between this company and Magneta clock systems as one engineer/inventor helped found Magneta. Can anyone expand on this??



RICHARD ADAMEK
 



On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:55:58 GMT, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:

CORRECTION

Think I meant TMC / Telephone Manufacturing Co instead of ECS - sorry

IIRC the ECS / TR masters had a very compact release / reset mechanism compared to most, what was the wear life like ?



Best regs

Richard





mikenealon@...
 

Attached is a PDF of a machinist's drawing.  I found it on the internet but can't attest to its suitability.  I don't know who drew it.  I found it about three or four years ago and haven't made one yet.  I, too, purchased a missing-pendulum clock.

My clock is a knock-off, I think - definitely not Synchronome; I don't know what it is. 

Here is the link:


I downloaded the drawing with no problems.

Mike Nealon

On Thursday, January 10, 2019, 4:20:41 PM CST, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:55:58 GMT, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:

CORRECTION

Think I meant TMC / Telephone Manufacturing Co instead of ECS - sorry

IIRC the ECS / TR masters had a very compact release / reset mechanism compared to most, what was the wear life like ?



Best regs

Richard





Mike Nealon <mikenealon@...>
 

You will find an article about the Synchronome in "Amateur Telescope Making Book Two" with a not-very-detailed drawing of the pallet.

The 20-page article does have a lot information about the Synchronome.  It is on page 427 (Book Two) and is entitled "A Precision Clock" by B. L. Souther, PhD., Wexford, Pennsylvania. 

The book was published in 1937.  I have a copy printed in 1972 by Scientific American, Inc. That version might be easier to find.

The author of that article gives the radius of the pallet as 7/32". 

Mike Nealon

On Thursday, January 10, 2019, 4:44:49 PM CST, Mike Nealon <mikenealon@...> wrote:


Attached is a PDF of a machinist's drawing.  I found it on the internet but can't attest to its suitability.  I don't know who drew it.  I found it about three or four years ago and haven't made one yet.  I, too, purchased a missing-pendulum clock.

My clock is a knock-off, I think - definitely not Synchronome; I don't know what it is. 

Here is the link:


I downloaded the drawing with no problems.

Mike Nealon
On Thursday, January 10, 2019, 4:20:41 PM CST, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:55:58 GMT, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:

CORRECTION

Think I meant TMC / Telephone Manufacturing Co instead of ECS - sorry

IIRC the ECS / TR masters had a very compact release / reset mechanism compared to most, what was the wear life like ?



Best regs

Richard





Geoff
 

Telephone Rentals was an excellent company. They used a lot of TMC master clocks that were the most reliable I have seen.I do not have one at the moment. Their clock engineers carried weights about and managed to get seconds a week accuracy. They had their own design, clock units separate from the master to control bells, whistles everything the factory needed. We mentioned Dictograph earlier, the Managing Director was the father of June Whitfield  the comedienne who sadly died the other week. She went with the BBC when she was 19 and was still acting at nearly 90! I remember in the fifties as Eth in a radio comedy  "take it from here" She was engaged to a gormless character named Ron and her catchphrase was "oooh  Ronnnn!!"

On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 17:20:40 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:




On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 21:55:58 GMT, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:

CORRECTION

Think I meant TMC / Telephone Manufacturing Co instead of ECS - sorry

IIRC the ECS / TR masters had a very compact release / reset mechanism compared to most, what was the wear life like ?



Best regs

Richard





RICHARD ADAMEK
 

I think Dad may have had a bit more freedom with Dictograph and running a smallholding out of hours he didn't like being sent  on distant contracts under TR but don't recall him ever saying anything against either firm, his TR boss remained a lifelong friend.

Hie you to freeview digital radio channel 704 Geoff (or whatever R4 Extra is in your area) and you can still hear many of those of the old series which have survived rebroadcast on a regular basis :)  brings back Sunday lunchtime memories for me as many were first broadcast then. Ken Horne, Goons, ISIRTA, Navy Lark etc etc.

I knew of the June Whitfield / Dictograph connection, probably from one of the early TR Journals and it always made me smile when listening to the News Huddlines over the decades.

I hope in it's new location the sandpit can be allowed a 'shallow end' for other brands or chat trapping the sort of memories other than the purely technical from such as Geoff who must represent one of the last generations who worked full time on these clock systems and for the companies in the wider sense than just synchronome.

Another list that I am active with uses the prefix O/T meaning off topic for threads not strictly withing the group title, are there enough of us and will the current upsurge in traffic persist long enough for these to be a problem to any 'purists' who may be quietly grinding their teeth ?

Richard

On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 23:02:47 GMT, Geoff via Groups.Io <urjoking_uk@...> wrote:


Telephone Rentals was an excellent company. They used a lot of TMC master clocks that were the most reliable I have seen.I do not have one at the moment. Their clock engineers carried weights about and managed to get seconds a week accuracy. They had their own design, clock units separate from the master to control bells, whistles everything the factory needed. We mentioned Dictograph earlier, the Managing Director was the father of June Whitfield  the comedienne who sadly died the other week. She went with the BBC when she was 19 and was still acting at nearly 90! I remember in the fifties as Eth in a radio comedy  "take it from here" She was engaged to a gormless character named Ron and her catchphrase was "oooh  Ronnnn!!"

On Thursday, 10 January 2019, 17:20:40 GMT-5, RICHARD ADAMEK via Groups.Io <oldenginehouse@...> wrote:





James Nye
 

Dear John,

 

You wonder about the origins of the shape of the pallet. Apologies if this is already on your shelf, but the received wisdom is generally taken to be as set out in Miles’ book. Two relevant passages:

 

“In 1906, there was a serious train accident near Salisbury, and since this was attributed to excessive speed, it became clear that a more accurate measurement of the speed of trains was needed.  By 1907, [Shortt] had designed and patented timing equipment for measuring the speed of trains by recording the time taken to travel between two fixed points.  He also devised a graphical method for improving the curves in railway lines, the other contributory factor in the accident.”

From later in the book:

 

“Hope-Jones then went on to describe how the impulse given to the pendulum should ‘begin gently, increase in value until it reached a maximum at zero and then tail off with equal gentleness’, as shown in Figure 3/35 but the shape of impulse pallet, had been empirical with no theoretical basis.  In the audience was William Hamilton Shortt and as recorded in Chapter 1.  This seems to have been their first meeting.  Shortt lost no time and submitted notes in time to be published in the ‘discussion’ at the end of the account of the meeting a couple of months later.  He first postulated that by delaying the impulse, the escapement error could be made to compensate for the circular error (i.e. the error caused by increasing the amplitude of swing of a pendulum see Chapter 2).  As an engineer, Shortt recognised that, in a cam and roller system, what matters is the path of the centre of the roller, in relation to the cam.  He then submitted an accurate graphical analysis of a revised pallet design and his optimisation of the pallet shape is shown in Figure 3/35.  By removing the curve at the top of the pallet, he caused the impulse to rise more rapidly and by curving the slope, he made the end of the impulse fall off more gently.  He derived a mathematical expression for the optimum shape of the curve but in practice this was approximated to a part of a circle.  The pallet profile was filed with a curve of 7/16  in. (11 mm), later altered slightly to 3/8 in. (9.5 mm) radius.  There is a drawback in this optimised design of pallet since if the roller remains in contact with the pallet right to the end of the curve, closure of the contacts could be uncertain.  In actual practice, the contacts are arranged to close just before the roller arrives at the flat part of the pallet curve so that they do not make contact too slowly for reliability.  Final positioning of the pallet on the pendulum was dependent on the installer and the design had to allow for this.”

Cheers

James

 

 

From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of John Haine
Sent: 10 January 2019 20:37
To: synchronome1@groups.io
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] Pallet design

 

Wow!  Thanks for all the quick replies.

Ian, noted that the ideal shape is probably not going to work any better.  Even the "ideal" shape is based on the notion that a raised-sine impulse waveform is optimum, with no real reason why.  As I have a little CNC mill I could form the shape almost as easily as the circular arc.

Peter, I think those pages are almost the same as what I have in "Electric Clocks and How to Make Them" - again the drawing lacks one dimension.

Ian, thanks for that article - very useful!  I think that is from HJ?  Could you say when it was published please?  Now that HJ is online from 1858 to 2000 I should be able to download the whole series.

Geoff, "HSN" is a newsletter published by the NAWCC, sort of the American equivalent of the BHI, it's for oddities like me who still find the physics of pendulums and things interesting.  Not a very wide circulation I fear.

Thanks again all - I'm sure I'll have many more questions.

John.


Ian Lonsdale
 

John,

 

The extract came from a series of articles published in Engineering in Miniature between Jan 1987 to May 1988

 

I can send the complete series in PDF (28mb) to you via WeTransfer.com if you want

 

Regards

Ian Lonsdale

 

From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of John Haine
Sent: 10 January 2019 20:37
To: synchronome1@groups.io
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] Pallet design

 

Wow!  Thanks for all the quick replies.

Ian, noted that the ideal shape is probably not going to work any better.  Even the "ideal" shape is based on the notion that a raised-sine impulse waveform is optimum, with no real reason why.  As I have a little CNC mill I could form the shape almost as easily as the circular arc.

Peter, I think those pages are almost the same as what I have in "Electric Clocks and How to Make Them" - again the drawing lacks one dimension.

Ian, thanks for that article - very useful!  I think that is from HJ?  Could you say when it was published please?  Now that HJ is online from 1858 to 2000 I should be able to download the whole series.

Geoff, "HSN" is a newsletter published by the NAWCC, sort of the American equivalent of the BHI, it's for oddities like me who still find the physics of pendulums and things interesting.  Not a very wide circulation I fear.

Thanks again all - I'm sure I'll have many more questions.

John.