Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Simon Taylor
If the slave mechs are lubricated, then I can only think that the oil thickens os it gets colder. Sorry, my only guess at this.
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Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
-- Simon GPO Clocks
http://www.lightstraw.co.uk/gpo/clocksystems/index.html
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This is actually the second time this question has been raised with me inside 24 hours (the other being locally) and so I think I will try and put together a short ‘guide’.
Firstly, if you have a copy of “Synchronome, Masters of Electrical Timekeeping” by RHA Miles - this is fully covered in detail in Chapter 13. Can I recommend you get a copy of this ’standard reference book’ which is available from the AHS, here https://www.ahsoc.org/shop/books/synchronome/ There is full detail and illustrations there.
Secondly, I will try and follow up with a short summary of the key points, but to get all correct - there is a ‘method’ to follow, rather than just experimenting. I have to add that I have one slave dial that is definitely temperature sensitive and I have never quite managed to fully ’tame’ - the possible reason being that the coil may have lost some layers in the course of its history (it is over 100 years old).
I will try and put something together.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Hello James,
As the system is generally functioning correctly I would suspect
the set up of the affected secondary dials and in particular the
failing current may be incorrectly adjusted.
Do you have any set up details? If not let me know and I will
search some out for you.
Kind regards
Peter
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On 16/06/2020 23:35, James wrote:
Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit
consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81
volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid
battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six
times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes
overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to
occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house
drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased
slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some
adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts...
James.
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Hi Why do you regulate the voltage and not the current?? All the best
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Op wo, jun. 17, 2020 om 0:35 schreef James <wikitoria4501@...>: Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Some notes I have compiled follow. I am very happy to take corrections/amendments.
Synchronome Slave Movement, Maintenance and Set Up.Dismantling and CleaningIt is important that the movement is clean and free of any
unintended friction from old gummed up oil etc. To clean the movement fully, it must be removed from the
clock housing and dial, and the details of how this is done will vary a bit
from one clock to another, but a few general points are worth noting. The assumption is that a basic wall type dial with a
standard slave movement is being maintained.
Note that this note covers the normal size movement – and can be
interpreted to the smaller and larger versions.
The various ‘silent’ versions, and some early variants (such as double
locking) are broadly similar, but with a number of detailed differences. Start by removing the rear cover, front bezel with glass,
and putting carefully on one side. Note
that Bakelite housings are brittle and need care in handling. Next remove the minute hand.
This is held in place by a tapered pin (and usually various washers) and
is often a tight push fit through the square arbor. It should be pushed out with a set of pin pushing
pliers, or pulled out with needle nosed pliers.
With the pin out, the minute hand can be removed. Note that the hand collet can be very tight on
the square arbor. I use a Bergeon type
5797 adjustable hand puller, but other types are available, or hand pulling levers
can be used – taking care to both protect the dial, the hour hand and apply
force on the (usually brass) collet, not the soft (possibly aluminium) hand. Put the hand in a safe place because the
hands are soft and easily bent. Next remove the hour hand.
This is held in place by being a friction fit on the hour hand pipe. The hand puller is again useful if available
and if using levers, take care not to mark the dial. Again put the hand in a safe place. The dial should now be removed (note that occasionally
movements are fitted directly to the dial, not a plate under the dial). Dials are usually held in place by several
screws around the outside, but may on older dials be ‘glued’ in place by a
black pitch like substance called Chatterton’s Compound. This has usually lost its grip. Dials are often thin and easily damaged. The movement itself is held in place in its ‘tin’ by two 8BA
countersunk screws through the plate under the dial located either side of the
hands arbors. Remove these and the
movement, tin and possibly a rubber spacer (usually very hardened) can be
separated. The movement can now be dismantled. It is fairly self explanatory, but the following
notes may help; ·
Take great care with the wires/coil ‘tails’ as
they are brittle and easily broken. ·
It is usually necessary to loosen/remove the
coil from the main plate to allow the 120 tooth wheel to be removed, which is
necessary to clean the minute hand shaft properly (where it passes through the
hour hand pipe. ·
The pivots, pivot holes, minute hand arbor and
particularly the inside of the hour hand pipe need the old possibly now gummy
oil cleaned off and the holes pegged out. ·
The click/pawl, 120 toothed wheel and backstop need
to be clean and the working surfaces are not oiled. ·
The pivots, holes and the axle (only) of the click/pawl
should be very lightly oiled with suitable light clock oil. ·
The surface of the driving spring should be
clean. ·
The motion work driving the hour hand pipe
should be cleaned and its pivots oiled. ·
The armature return spring should contact the
back of the click near the top. Once completely clean, reassemble the movement, but do not
reassemble into the case yet. AdjustmentOne key adjustment can only be done whilst the movement
is out of the case – and that is the coil position. That MUST be done before the movement is
assembled onto the dial. The coil is
usually held by two cheese head screws in slots, allowing a little adjustment
of the iron yoke and coil core. What is
needed is that the magnetic circuit has as small a gap as possible consistent
with allowing sufficient movement to drive the clock. It is also necessary that the iron piece does
not make ‘iron to iron’ contact with the coil core – or the small permanent
magnetism may cause it to stick in place.
This is achieved by a thin paper spacer usually stuck on the iron piece
of the moving armature. Hold the movement the normal operating orientation and looking
from the back, identify the following items and adjustments; 1.
The backstop pawl – which is the non adjustable
piece that prevents the 120 tooth wheel being able to turn backwards – and has
its arbor/pivots at the top left as the movement is viewed. There should be 4 tooth ‘peaks’ between the
click/pawl and the backstop. 2.
The click released adjustment stop – at the top right
of centre and which limits the ‘released’ (i.e. coil not energised) forward
movement of the click. Check it is free
to adjust and if needed oil the threads sparingly. 3.
The click energised adjustment stop – at the top
right side which limits the travel of the click when the coil is energised. Check it is free to adjust and if needed oil
the threads sparingly. 4.
The two screws holding the coil/yoke assembly,
which should be just finger tight at this stage. 5.
The tension adjuster for the armature return
spring on the mid right hand side which should at this stage lightly
tension the spring against the click.
Again check it is free to adjust and if needed oil the threads sparingly. Note that some very early clocks do not have
this adjustment. In these – the whole
pillar on which the spring is mounted may have to be rotated – which can only
be done with the movement out off the dial, because the screw holding it passes
from the dial side. 1.
Check that the movement works freely and correctly
using a finger to operate the armature and that there is no significant
friction. It is worth doing this for a
full rotation of the 120 tooth wheel, because a slightly out of true arbour may
cause friction only in some positions.
Each operation of the armature should gather one tooth and advance the
minute arbor 1/120 th of a revolution on release. Note the backstop pawl should drop into place behind
the tooth preventing the 120 tooth wheel reversing as each tooth is passed. This is 4 teeth from the tooth acted
on by the click/pawl. Check that 4 tooth
peaks are between the backstop and the driving click/pawl. If it doesn’t advance, check there is
sufficient tension in the armature return spring and increase slightly if
needed. If there are not 4 tooth peaks,
adjust the click released adjustment stop such that are 4. This is important because the mechanics may
allow operation with only 3 teeth in between – and this will give an excessive
gap in the magnetic circuit leading to an inability to set the other items
correctly. 2.
Now adjust the click released adjustment stop
such that the click/pawl advances the 120 tooth wheel just enough to give a very
small clearance between the backstop pawl and the tooth against which it acts. This should be very small to allow for
tolerances, thermal expansion etc. It is
important that this stage to check and ensure that this clearance applies for a
whole rotation of the 120 tooth wheel because it is not unknown for these
to be very slightly ‘out of true’. Too
much clearance will give a little recoil at the minute hand – which is
acceptable, but too little will prevent operation. 3.
Next adjust the click energised adjustment stop. Using finger pressure, simulate the operation
of the coil and move the armature such that the click/pawl gathers one
tooth. Adjust the click energised
adjustment stop to allow the pawl to drop behind the tooth to be gathered again
with a little clearance. Once again –
check for a whole rotation. Note: the
coil and yoke should have enough clearance at this stage not to impeded the
movement of the armature – which is why it was left loose. 4.
Now the coil/yoke assembly position is adjusted
and fixed. Note that the pole piece on
the armature should have a thin paper covering to prevent iron to iron
contact. Masking tape will suffice. Using finger pressure – simulate the armature
energisation – then with the armature held in that position, slide the
coil/yoke assembly towards the armature such that it just clears – and tighten
the adjusting screws. Note that there is
some ‘alignment’ adjustment available and ideally the ‘gap’ in the magnetic
circuit should be as small and even as possible – and that a ‘gap’ must be
present both between the central coil core and the armature and the yoke
and the armature (against the baseplate).
If there is no gap, the tooth may not be gathered due to limited armature
movement – but if there is too much gap, then the magnetic circuit will be weak
and operation may be unreliable. 5.
Now to set the tension for the armature return
spring. This is set to operate at 330 mA
normal operational current, but should be set as follows. Set the power supply to deliver 330mA through
the circuit (typically tales about 1 – 1.5 volts) and check for correct
operation. If operation is unreliable,
adjust the spring tension accordingly.
Then reduce the current to 220mA.
The movement should ‘just’ operate at this current. Reduce the tension to achieve this state (note
final adjustment may be required when assembled with the hands in place). ReassemblyReassembly is done by reversing the dismantling process, but
note the following; ·
Thoroughly check operation – especially the coil
position before reassembly because these cannot be accessed once assembled. ·
The 8BA screws holding the movement must not be
too long because they may foul (and in the limit badly damage) the 120 tooth wheel,
so if using replacements ensure that this cannot happen ·
When fitting the minute hand, some hands are balanced
with a counterweight on the hand, but some rely on a balance weight/non pierced
section of the 120 tooth wheel to balance the hand – in which case this must be
fitted in the correct orientation. It is also worth noting before final assembly that the hands
need to be free from touching each other or the dial/dial glass etc. Check at every stage. Perform a final check with the clock in the vertical plane
and it may be necessary to slightly adjust the spring tension to allow for the weight/balance
of the hand. These notes are based on both my own ‘trials and
errors’, and the material in Chapter 13 of “Synchronome : Masters of Electrical
Timekeeping” by RHA (Bob) Miles. (AHS publication).
This is actually the second time this question has been raised with me inside 24 hours (the other being locally) and so I think I will try and put together a short ‘guide’.
Firstly, if you have a copy of “Synchronome, Masters of Electrical Timekeeping” by RHA Miles - this is fully covered in detail in Chapter 13. Can I recommend you get a copy of this ’standard reference book’ which is available from the AHS, here https://www.ahsoc.org/shop/books/synchronome/ There is full detail and illustrations there.
Secondly, I will try and follow up with a short summary of the key points, but to get all correct - there is a ‘method’ to follow, rather than just experimenting. I have to add that I have one slave dial that is definitely temperature sensitive and I have never quite managed to fully ’tame’ - the possible reason being that the coil may have lost some layers in the course of its history (it is over 100 years old).
I will try and put something together.
John
Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Uni Selector
Surely as the current drawn is a product of voltage and the resistance of the circuit, it is only possible to increase current by removing some slaves or reduce current by adding serial resistance.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
HiWhy do you regulate the voltage and not the current?? All the best Bart Op wo, jun. 17, 2020 om 0:35 schreef James Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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As a ‘rule of thumb’ allow 3 Volts for the master movement and 1.5 Volts for each slave movement ………. then use a series resistor to limit the current (it won’t need much) to approx 300-350 mA. 330 mA is the correct nominal value. If using lead acid batteries, a good fuse at about 0.5 to 1.0 Amps is a wise precaution because lead acid chemistry has a very low internal resistance and fault currents can be very high indeed.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Surely as the current drawn is a product of voltage and the resistance of the circuit, it is only possible to increase current by removing some slaves or reduce current by adding serial resistance. HiWhy do you regulate the voltage and not the current?? All the best Bart Op wo, jun. 17, 2020 om 0:35 schreef James Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Uni Selector
That "Rule of Thumb" really isn't too practicable; most multiple slave systems worked from a fixed voltage and current was controlled by varying the in series resistor as slaves were added or removed.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
As a ‘rule of thumb’ allow 3 Volts for the master movement and 1.5 Volts for each slave movement ………. then use a series resistor to limit the current (it won’t need much) to approx 300-350 mA. 330 mA is the correct nominal value. If using lead acid batteries, a good fuse at about 0.5 to 1.0 Amps is a wise precaution because lead acid chemistry has a very low internal resistance and fault currents can be very high indeed.
Surely as the current drawn is a product of voltage and the resistance of the circuit, it is only possible to increase current by removing some slaves or reduce current by adding serial resistance. HiWhy do you regulate the voltage and not the current?? All the best Bart Op wo, jun. 17, 2020 om 0:35 schreef James Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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The “Rule of Thumb” was mainly to select the battery size ( as you note, fixed Voltage), then as I mentioned "a series resistor to limit the current (it won’t need much) to approx 300-350 mA”.
By the rule of thumb, a master with dial and say 5 slaves needed at least a 12 Volt battery. For the original posters set up of master and 10 slave movements, the rule suggests 18 Volts and then a resistor to drop the current to 330 mA nominal. With an 18 Volt battery his circuit resistance of 41.4 Ohms, about 10 Ohms would be needed in series with his circuit.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
That "Rule of Thumb" really isn't too practicable; most multiple slave systems worked from a fixed voltage and current was controlled by varying the in series resistor as slaves were added or removed. As a ‘rule of thumb’ allow 3 Volts for the master movement and 1.5 Volts for each slave movement ………. then use a series resistor to limit the current (it won’t need much) to approx 300-350 mA. 330 mA is the correct nominal value. If using lead acid batteries, a good fuse at about 0.5 to 1.0 Amps is a wise precaution because lead acid chemistry has a very low internal resistance and fault currents can be very high indeed.
Surely as the current drawn is a product of voltage and the resistance of the circuit, it is only possible to increase current by removing some slaves or reduce current by adding serial resistance. HiWhy do you regulate the voltage and not the current?? All the best Bart Op wo, jun. 17, 2020 om 0:35 schreef James Hi all,
Am having some problems with three slave dials. The circuit consists of a Master with 10 slaves (dials) operating at 13.81 volts, 0.33 amps and 41.4 ohms. It is powered from a lead acid battery via a buck converter to regulate the voltage. Five or six times a year, some of the slaves will drop 5 or so minutes overnight. It is always the same dials and it very much seems to occur only on colder nights in winter when the temp in the house drops.
Is this a mechanical or electrical problem?
If it is a electrical problem should the voltage be increased slightly in winter? Or do the slave dials require some adjustments? If so, what adjustments should be tried first?
Many thanks for your thoughts... James.
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Excellent suggestion. Will put in some 0.5 amp fuses. James.
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Wow thanks for such as great post. Very, very helpful set of instructions. With so many clocks its going to be a few days work. James.
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With the buck converter its easy to adjust the supply voltage by turning a screw. I can adjust by 0.1 volt accuracy. If I measure the systems total resistance it very simple to use ohms law and get to the 0.3 amps.
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James,
You don't need to know the voltage, or Ohm's Law - just put an ammeter in series and you can read the current directly! As others have said, it's the CURRENT that operates the clocks.
Cheers,
Ian R
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-----Original Message-----
From: James <wikitoria4501@...>
To: synchronome1@groups.io
Sent: Tue, 23 Jun 2020 5:08
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] ?low temp issue
With the buck converter its easy to adjust the supply voltage by turning a screw. I can adjust by 0.1 volt accuracy. If I measure the systems total resistance it very simple to use ohms law and get to the 0.3 amps.
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