Group Focus


John Haine
 

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?


jmfranke
 

I would very much like to see an expansion such as you suggest.

John Franke

On December 6, 2020 at 4:51 AM John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?


 


Odell, Edward
 

There is also another group

electric-clocks@groups.io

covering other electromagnetic clocks, with members in common between the two

Eddy Odell

 

From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of jmfranke via groups.io
Sent: 06 December 2020 13:02
To: synchronome1@groups.io; John Haine <john.haine@...>
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] Group Focus

 

I would very much like to see an expansion such as you suggest.

John Franke

On December 6, 2020 at 4:51 AM John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?


 


Ken Strauss
 

I almost never post here (I have little expert synchronome knowledge to offer) but I’ve learned a great deal and I am interested in all aspects of electromagnetic clocks. I heartily second John’s suggestion!

 

From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of John Haine
Sent: December 6, 2020 4:51 AM
To: synchronome1@groups.io
Subject: [synchronomeelectricclock] Group Focus

 

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?


Daniel Benson
 

I'm open to the idea of expanding the focus beyond Synchronome, but well defined within Em clocks.


Bepi
 

John, I approve your proposal of course, I am building an EM pulsed double pendulum right now, will they be included too in your change of focus? Even if they go back to Huygens and not Galileo like the others, double penduli will never have a forum on their own, right now it feels terribly lonely.
Thinking along those lines I was asking myself what would have been the dream forum given my interests and what you are proposing is very close but excludes the community of precision regulators. According to me the extraordinary new diagnostic opportunities offered by quartz clocked processors is what nowadays propels most of the interest, and developments, in precision EM, and mechanical, escapements. Wouldn't be wonderful to unite everybody interested in both these fields under the same ombrella given that the tools of the trade, both theory and practice, are the same? Another problem which interests me is the one of rejuvenating the pool and entering the word computer may help. I have noticed something similar happening with electronics/radio amateurs. 
p.-

On Dec 6, 2020, at 10:51, John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?


--
Bepi


James Kelly
 

Hi All

As the owner and moderator of the site I have no objections to posts about any make or model of electric clock, members of the original yahoo group will recall that there was always questions being asked about electro-mechanical clocks of all types.

Further take a quick look in the photos section and you will see files with clocks by makers other than Synchronome.

The stated aim of this group has always been as follows and this can be seen on the home page, 

Welcome to the Synchronome1 electric clock group. This group is run by enthusiasts and is concerned with issues relating to electric clocks: Precise, accurate, domestic and industrial. 

It just remains for you all to post and ask questions regarding any type of elctro-mechanical clock, be it technical or historical or restoration, adjustment, just post and ask away.

One final word, I hope everyone has managed to stay safe during the pandemic, and with the additional free time you may have enjoyed I hope you have been working on your clocks and enjoying them as you should

All the best

Jim Kelly
 


Ian Richardson
 

Surely there is little point in duplicating stuff.  As Eddy pointed out, there is already a perfectly good, and well supported IO group covering all aspects of electric clocks, including (naturally) Synchronome, and all sorts of others whether commercially produced or experimentally made individual clocks.

Ian R
Macclesfield, UK
(presently in France)



-----Original Message-----
From: Odell, Edward via groups.io <edward.odell@...>
To: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 14:43
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] Group Focus

There is also another group
covering other electromagnetic clocks, with members in common between the two
Eddy Odell
 
From: synchronome1@groups.io <synchronome1@groups.io> On Behalf Of jmfranke via groups.io
Sent: 06 December 2020 13:02
To: synchronome1@groups.io; John Haine <john.haine@...>
Subject: Re: [synchronomeelectricclock] Group Focus
 
I would very much like to see an expansion such as you suggest.
John Franke
On December 6, 2020 at 4:51 AM John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

I wonder if I could make a modest proposal for the focus of this group?  I joined about 2 years ago, moving across from the old Yahoo group, and over the past couple of years have found it very interesting and useful.  I see that the frequency of posting has fallen off a lot in recent months, I'm not sure why this is though there have been distracting things going on in real life! 

I have posted quite a lot about my own clock as I got it built and working - it's now reached the boring phase where it just sits on the wall and keeps time pretty well.  Meanwhile I've built another clock, not on 'Nome principles at all (though it is electromagnetic), and I'm just starting on a third inspired by the Fedchenko EM clock.

So should we broaden the focus of this group to include other EM (pendulum?) clocks, either being made or restored/collected?

 


James Kelly
 

Hi Ian,

There are probably members here who don't belong to both groups, and I myself have often posted the same question on both groups, so I don't see that there will be a duplication of things, also there has been very little activity on the electric clock group site as well, its probably because we are mostly middle aged or retired. I have no problem with any posts the members wish to put up, it will be interesting to see what comes of it.

Regards

Jim


Darren Conway
 

Hi

How about:

pendulum clocks powered with electricity.

This opens it up to any clock where the time keeping is based on a swinging mass.  It includes nomes, custom electronics, Hipps etc etc.


Regards

Darren Conway


On 7.12.20 3:23 am, Daniel Benson wrote:
I'm open to the idea of expanding the focus beyond Synchronome, but well defined within Em clocks.

Virus-free. www.avast.com


John Haine
 

Bepi, it should definitely embrace double-pendulum clocks like your project!  Close to my heart as well, I would be building one now except that I got interested in Fedchenko's EM impulsing.  Something slightly similar is already used in my second clock, and Bryan Mumford shows several nice examples on his website and there also others around on the web.  Fedchenko's original system is harder to make but can apply a central impulse at a time that is geometrically defined by the construction.  

I looked at the other IO site which seems to be still called "synchronome" and doesn't have many posts, the latest being October last year.


John Haine
 


Picture of the new clock.  Half-second pendulum maintained with coil sensing magnet in the end of the rod, controlled by Arduino Nano with only 4  extra passive components.  Pendulum amplitude controlled by a Hall effect sensor.  Time displayed by modified quartz movement, with connections direct to stepper motor from Arduino.


brian@...
 

Lovely looking clock John and sounds pretty interesting. Any results on the time keeping accuracy yet?
Brian


John Haine
 


Thanks for the compliment Brian, I have to say it was constructed "on the fly" with materials from the "will come in useful one day" box!

This is from a 10-day run ending last week.  There are a few glitches but mainly shows a gaining rate of ~22 us/s.  One of the things the Arduino does is correct the displayed time by periodically "missing a beat", in this case every 133 cycles, the pendulum being adjusted to run slightly fast.  This is slightly undercompensated, so now it misses a beat every 132 cycles except every 204 cycles of 132.  So 132 overcompensates but about 3 times a day an extra second is inserted.  Only been running for a couple of days like this so too soon to say how well it's working.


Bepi
 

Great clock and interesting results John, I would have many questions and curiosities to satisfy but my short attention span is busy discussing fun classical analytical-mechanics right now with another group in Italy.
The interesting thing which is happening right now in this discussions is that we run over and over again in the same subject we discussed at pendulum nuts some months ago: which amplitude should one adopt for best regularity. I understand one should specify which kind of regularity, essentially on which time scale but also which environment, with my synchronome for example ir-regularity is dominated by wall fluctuations, and subdivide the answers accordingly but the picture is still pretty confused.
--
Bepi


John Haine
 

Pepi, I have to say that the amplitude of this clock is determined by its history!  2 or 3 years back I started to make a clock with a seconds pendulum (0.5 Hz) and a target amplitude of less than 1 degree.  This was set by the spacing between the drive coil and a hall effect sensor in the base.  I never got that going, I was trying to make an over-complex discrete electronics driver and could never debug it.  When I started to make the new clock I just used the same mounting block with the coil and HED but with the shorter pendulum the amplitude is 4 x bigger!  To begin with I was really just trying out a very simple Arduino pendulum driver I found on the web https://www.instructables.com/Magnetic-Pendulum/ using a crude lash-up on a bit of MDF, but it worked rather well so I decided to make it into a clock.  So its amplitude is much bigger than is probably ideal, but it is at least controlled, though with what precision I don't know.  This time I haven't got round to setting up any precision timing measurement.


Bepi
 

Thanks John, my intention was to pose an in principle question: how should one choose the amplitude at clock design level. More relevant with mechanical clocks, so much more power hungry and inefficient than the EM ones and where it's also a lot harder to investigate a subject like this experimentally. I was right today discussing of how to build a mechanical escapement with an easy way to control the number of periods per pulse. If anybody is aware of such a design please let me know.
In a sealed case my synchronome works very reliably at exceptionally low amplitudes and its noise level grows a lot compared to normal, I just never stopped to investigate why.
It could be an interesting field of research for a "real" electric clock like yours (or mine) where changing amplitude and pulse rate independently is super easy and the escapement error virtually absent, just like the subject of how often to impulse. Has intermittent impulsing, supposedly superior than pulse by pulse for accuracy, ever been investigated experimentally? p.-

On Dec 8, 2020, at 16:05, John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

Pepi, I have to say that the amplitude of this clock is determined by its history!  2 or 3 years back I started to make a clock with a seconds pendulum (0.5 Hz) and a target amplitude of less than 1 degree.  This was set by the spacing between the drive coil and a hall effect sensor in the base.  I never got that going, I was trying to make an over-complex discrete electronics driver and could never debug it.  When I started to make the new clock I just used the same mounting block with the coil and HED but with the shorter pendulum the amplitude is 4 x bigger!  To begin with I was really just trying out a very simple Arduino pendulum driver I found on the web https://www.instructables.com/Magnetic-Pendulum/ using a crude lash-up on a bit of MDF, but it worked rather well so I decided to make it into a clock.  So its amplitude is much bigger than is probably ideal, but it is at least controlled, though with what precision I don't know.  This time I haven't got round to setting up any precision timing measurement.


--
Bepi


Darren Conway
 

Hi

Given that the optimal performance of a pendulum based time keeper requires minimization of higher order effects.  This will maximize operation in the 1st order linear zone.

The ideal pendulum clock would require:

  • a pendulum approaching infinite length
  • a pendulum displacement of near zero
  • a driving  impulse with near zero duration and infinite amplitude applied at the zero displacement point
  • zero friction
  • zero mechanical vibration
  • a stable gravitational field (at least get rid of the moon)
  • free from the coriolis effect
Any deviation from the ideal clock requires measurement and management of the higher order effects.  Those will vary with the specific mechanical details/design of each clock.  Applying a single driving pulse per multiple periods approximates an impulse.  An impluse has zero duration and infinite applitude.  if say, a clock is pulsed 1 in 100 periods, then the effect is to apply reduce the width of the pulse by 100. 

Research and optimization of a real and practical clock will depend on the mechanical design and necessary deviations from the ideal.   Still plenty of opportunities for detailed research given the ready availabilty of ultra accurate time references and electronics like the Aduino.  As my old professor said, "nothing is true that isn't measured". 

Regards

Darren Conway
36 Orr Crescent
Lower Hutt
New Zealand
ph +64  (0)4 569 1963

On 9.12.20 5:55 am, Bepi wrote:
Thanks John, my intention was to pose an in principle question: how should one choose the amplitude at clock design level. More relevant with mechanical clocks, so much more power hungry and inefficient than the EM ones and where it's also a lot harder to investigate a subject like this experimentally. I was right today discussing of how to build a mechanical escapement with an easy way to control the number of periods per pulse. If anybody is aware of such a design please let me know.
In a sealed case my synchronome works very reliably at exceptionally low amplitudes and its noise level grows a lot compared to normal, I just never stopped to investigate why.
It could be an interesting field of research for a "real" electric clock like yours (or mine) where changing amplitude and pulse rate independently is super easy and the escapement error virtually absent, just like the subject of how often to impulse. Has intermittent impulsing, supposedly superior than pulse by pulse for accuracy, ever been investigated experimentally? p.-

On Dec 8, 2020, at 16:05, John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

Pepi, I have to say that the amplitude of this clock is determined by its history!  2 or 3 years back I started to make a clock with a seconds pendulum (0.5 Hz) and a target amplitude of less than 1 degree.  This was set by the spacing between the drive coil and a hall effect sensor in the base.  I never got that going, I was trying to make an over-complex discrete electronics driver and could never debug it.  When I started to make the new clock I just used the same mounting block with the coil and HED but with the shorter pendulum the amplitude is 4 x bigger!  To begin with I was really just trying out a very simple Arduino pendulum driver I found on the web https://www.instructables.com/Magnetic-Pendulum/ using a crude lash-up on a bit of MDF, but it worked rather well so I decided to make it into a clock.  So its amplitude is much bigger than is probably ideal, but it is at least controlled, though with what precision I don't know.  This time I haven't got round to setting up any precision timing measurement.


--
Bepi

Virus-free. www.avast.com


neil
 

Hi Bepi,
               I have that very experiment going on at the moment. My EM clock  is controlled by a homebrew Atmega processor board, and I can very easily switch between pulsing it every 30sec ( or any other interval for that matter) vs impulsing it when the amplitude drops to a preset level determined by an opto.
  I have a Mumford Microset connected to it to measure the rate, but got side tracked recently -  replacing the invar pendulum with a glass rod,  and that is still a work in progress. I'm busy boring holes in pieces of scrap glass rod with a diamond burr in order to find the perfect attachment for the suspension and the bob. Maybe over Xmas I will make some real progress.

neil


    
On 9/12/2020 05:55 am, Bepi wrote:
Thanks John, my intention was to pose an in principle question: how should one choose the amplitude at clock design level. More relevant with mechanical clocks, so much more power hungry and inefficient than the EM ones and where it's also a lot harder to investigate a subject like this experimentally. I was right today discussing of how to build a mechanical escapement with an easy way to control the number of periods per pulse. If anybody is aware of such a design please let me know.
In a sealed case my synchronome works very reliably at exceptionally low amplitudes and its noise level grows a lot compared to normal, I just never stopped to investigate why.
It could be an interesting field of research for a "real" electric clock like yours (or mine) where changing amplitude and pulse rate independently is super easy and the escapement error virtually absent, just like the subject of how often to impulse. Has intermittent impulsing, supposedly superior than pulse by pulse for accuracy, ever been investigated experimentally? p.-

On Dec 8, 2020, at 16:05, John Haine <john.haine@...> wrote:

Pepi, I have to say that the amplitude of this clock is determined by its history!  2 or 3 years back I started to make a clock with a seconds pendulum (0.5 Hz) and a target amplitude of less than 1 degree.  This was set by the spacing between the drive coil and a hall effect sensor in the base.  I never got that going, I was trying to make an over-complex discrete electronics driver and could never debug it.  When I started to make the new clock I just used the same mounting block with the coil and HED but with the shorter pendulum the amplitude is 4 x bigger!  To begin with I was really just trying out a very simple Arduino pendulum driver I found on the web https://www.instructables.com/Magnetic-Pendulum/ using a crude lash-up on a bit of MDF, but it worked rather well so I decided to make it into a clock.  So its amplitude is much bigger than is probably ideal, but it is at least controlled, though with what precision I don't know.  This time I haven't got round to setting up any precision timing measurement.


--
Bepi


neil
 

What are the Axis units John?


    
On 8/12/2020 10:36 pm, John Haine wrote:

Thanks for the compliment Brian, I have to say it was constructed "on the fly" with materials from the "will come in useful one day" box!

This is from a 10-day run ending last week.  There are a few glitches but mainly shows a gaining rate of ~22 us/s.  One of the things the Arduino does is correct the displayed time by periodically "missing a beat", in this case every 133 cycles, the pendulum being adjusted to run slightly fast.  This is slightly undercompensated, so now it misses a beat every 132 cycles except every 204 cycles of 132.  So 132 overcompensates but about 3 times a day an extra second is inserted.  Only been running for a couple of days like this so too soon to say how well it's working.