Topics

Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

 

Jack Smith
 

But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Bobby Hardenbrook
 


This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.  

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

scott palter
 

Given the crime rate in much of PR theft will be a problem.


Scott




From: stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 4:47 PM
To: stirling@groups.io
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
 

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.  

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

markus baur
 

Am 06.10.2017 um 18:47 schrieb Bobby Hardenbrook:
This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these.
yep

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-puertorico-solar/how-solar-energy-saved-a-puerto-rican-farm-from-hurricane-maria-idUSKCN1C90CG

A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.
also a properly installed solar system is surprisingly damage resistant and can work even with a number of cells damaged or missing

servus

markus

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@... <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:
But not ~fast~.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
<mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:
http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid
--
Jack Smith
English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other
languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

--
Email from my mobile connection.

markus baur
 

would trump be willing not to introduce the customs tarif for chinese solar cells

https://electrek.co/2017/09/22/international-trade-court-itc-suniva-tariff-solar-panels/

servus

markus

Am 06.10.2017 um 12:29 schrieb Andrew Gray:

joatsimeon
 

It's fairly straightforward engineering; all that's needed is money.  He could probably build it -better-, but this is a situation where 'faster is good'.


From: Andrew Gray <aggray@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 4:29 am
Subject: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

Jack Smith
 

Well, money and the availability of the solar panels.  All of Puerto Rico would take a LOT of panels, probably more than exist.  A better solution might be to airlift (helicopterlift?) the panels and "stuff" into the back country and restore power there faster than it can come in from outside.  That might even be more economical, but I'm guessing.


On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:46 PM, joatsimeon via Groups.Io <joatsimeon@...> wrote:
It's fairly straightforward engineering; all that's needed is money.  He could probably build it -better-, but this is a situation where 'faster is good'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gray <aggray@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 4:29 am
Subject: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Patricia Mathews
 

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.




From: stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
To: stirling@groups.io
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
 

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.  

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Timothy McFadden
 

A lot of that has been going on among the Indians- of India :-) corrupt and innefficient central power authority has dropped the ball for decades, currently a boom underway in home solar water/power systems.



From: Patricia Mathews <mathews55@...>
To: stirling@groups.io
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.



From: stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
To: stirling@groups.io
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
 

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.  

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.


Marvin Carlson
 

 Puerto Rico is broke from decades of fiscal mismanagement. The infrastructure was falling apart before the hurricane. Second It is an Island so the ability to transmit from elsewhere is limited.  When Hawaii went through similar problems  the infrastructure was up to date and not falling apart.  Puerto Rico is a basket case because it has been a basket case for years.


On 10/06/2017 03:58 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
Well, money and the availability of the solar panels.  All of Puerto Rico would take a LOT of panels, probably more than exist.  A better solution might be to airlift (helicopterlift?) the panels and "stuff" into the back country and restore power there faster than it can come in from outside.  That might even be more economical, but I'm guessing.


On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:46 PM, joatsimeon via Groups.Io <joatsimeon@...> wrote:
It's fairly straightforward engineering; all that's needed is money.  He could probably build it -better-, but this is a situation where 'faster is good'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gray <aggray@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 4:29 am
Subject: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Allen Pitt
 

Also depopulation—a lot of people have left. Feds forcing the minimum wage up too high (far beyond what the island wages were) didn’t help. Lots of things like that.

On Oct 7, 2017, at 12:45 PM, Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io <moors710@...> wrote:

 Puerto Rico is broke from decades of fiscal mismanagement. The infrastructure was falling apart before the hurricane. Second It is an Island so the ability to transmit from elsewhere is limited.  When Hawaii went through similar problems  the infrastructure was up to date and not falling apart.  Puerto Rico is a basket case because it has been a basket case for years.


On 10/06/2017 03:58 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
Well, money and the availability of the solar panels.  All of Puerto Rico would take a LOT of panels, probably more than exist.  A better solution might be to airlift (helicopterlift?) the panels and "stuff" into the back country and restore power there faster than it can come in from outside.  That might even be more economical, but I'm guessing.


On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:46 PM, joatsimeon via Groups.Io <joatsimeon@...> wrote:
It's fairly straightforward engineering; all that's needed is money.  He could probably build it -better-, but this is a situation where 'faster is good'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gray <aggray@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 4:29 am
Subject: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Dan Daast
 

Yes, you see something of that sort every now and then. Haiti and DR periodically provide a glaring illustration in how much political culture matters. Same disaster, very different recoveries. Which is pretty grim, really, When DR is the efficient one...


On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 09:45 am, Marvin Carlson wrote:

 Puerto Rico is broke from decades of fiscal mismanagement. The infrastructure was falling apart before the hurricane. Second It is an Island so the ability to transmit from elsewhere is limited.  When Hawaii went through similar problems  the infrastructure was up to date and not falling apart.  Puerto Rico is a basket case because it has been a basket case for years.


On 10/06/2017 03:58 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
Well, money and the availability of the solar panels.  All of Puerto Rico would take a LOT of panels, probably more than exist.  A better solution might be to airlift (helicopterlift?) the panels and "stuff" into the back country and restore power there faster than it can come in from outside.  That might even be more economical, but I'm guessing.
 

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:46 PM, joatsimeon via Groups.Io <joatsimeon@...> wrote:
It's fairly straightforward engineering; all that's needed is money.  He could probably build it -better-, but this is a situation where 'faster is good'.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gray <aggray@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Oct 6, 2017 4:29 am
Subject: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid



 
--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Marvin Carlson
 

A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company.  When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large output.  Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.

On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.




From: stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
To: stirling@groups.io
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
 

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.  

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
But not ~fast~.




--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

markus baur
 

Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company. When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large output.  Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q

this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with consumer systems

solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving

servus

markus

On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
*Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@... <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:

But not ~fast~.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
<mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid





--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

--
Email from my mobile connection.

Patricia Mathews
 


For large output,  no indeed. For small-scale electricity production - are we talking industrial level here? Or a poor backwoods home that's helpless when the grid goes down? - solar with a decent battery setup and a plain old-fashioned ranch-style windmill helps a lot.



From: stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of markus baur <baur@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 7, 2017 11:12 AM
To: stirling@groups.io
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
 
Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
> A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up
> with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly
> connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a
> 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company. 
> When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a
> greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around
> 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive
> with power grid or diesel for large output.  Solar and wind are
> expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q
www.greentechmedia.com
Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout America


this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with
consumer systems

solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving

servus

markus



>
> On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:
>>
>> Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into
>> for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not
>> on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby
>> Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
>> *To:* stirling@groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
>>
>> This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack
>> for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less
>> pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have
>> these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have
>> to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...
>> <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:
>>
>>     But not ~fast~.
>>
>>     On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
>>     <mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:
>>
>>         http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     Jack Smith
>>
>>     English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
>>     other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.
>>
>
>


--
Email from my mobile connection.



markus baur
 

Am 07.10.2017 um 19:51 schrieb Patricia Mathews:
For large output,  no indeed. For small-scale electricity production - are we talking industrial level here? Or a poor backwoods home that's helpless when the grid goes down? - solar with a decent battery setup and a plain old-fashioned ranch-style windmill helps a lot.
yes - depending on the location wind might help a lot ..

we are at the point where the solar cells themselves are the cheap part of the whole system

http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdnocom/files/2014/10/solar-PV-price-trends-2013.png

the expensive part is installation costs - this still needs a lot of improvement

servus

markus

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of markus baur <baur@...>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 7, 2017 11:12 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company. When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large output.  Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>

Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas ... <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>
www.greentechmedia.com
Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout America
this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with
consumer systems
solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving
servus
markus

On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
*Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@... <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:

     But not ~fast~.

     On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
     <mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid





     --
     Jack Smith

     English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
     other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.
--
Email from my mobile connection.

--
Email from my mobile connection.

Marvin Carlson
 

Wind and solar with batteries and  diesel (or natural gas) back up is a good plan in general for the short term as the technology improves ( this is what I have been looking at for a personal system).  It improves the load management for the grid.  The primary advantage is the long term diversification of the system with shorter power lines is advantageous.  When my brother did an analysis of the US power system he found 50% of power generated is used up in transmission. If 20% is wasted in storage and 15% is wasted in transmission of Natural Gas the system from that becomes more efficient in the net as large natural gas piston engines are as efficient as steam turbines burning gas. Wind and Solar being undependable are massively problematic for the grid. Diesel/Natural gas generators need only run about 8 hours per month to keep seals etc in shape.  Overproduction of electricity from wind and solar could easily be shunted for chemical production using smaller automated plants with disbursed manufacturing.

Dual cycle gas turbine/ steam turbine yield up to 60% thermodynamic efficiency, but need around 24 hours from zero to full efficiency and  throttling them up and down to take care of peaks makes them no more efficient than piston engines (Caterpillar and Waukesha being two major manufacturers of large piston engines smaller ones Perkins ( now a caterpillar subsidiary)  builds high efficiency diesel engines in the 50 KW range.

Since Puerto Rico is rebuilding from scratch it mght be a good time to use a new model of electrical production.

On 10/07/2017 02:00 PM, markus baur wrote:
Am 07.10.2017 um 19:51 schrieb Patricia Mathews:

For large output,  no indeed. For small-scale electricity production - are we talking industrial level here? Or a poor backwoods home that's helpless when the grid goes down? - solar with a decent battery setup and a plain old-fashioned ranch-style windmill helps a lot.
yes - depending on the location wind might help a lot ..

we are at the point where the solar cells themselves are the cheap part of the whole system

http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdnocom/files/2014/10/solar-PV-price-trends-2013.png

the expensive part is installation costs - this still needs a lot of improvement

servus

markus

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of markus baur <baur@...>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 7, 2017 11:12 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company.  When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large output. Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q
<https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>

Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas ... <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>
www.greentechmedia.com
Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout America



this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with
consumer systems

solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving

servus

markus




On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.



------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
*Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@... <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:

     But not ~fast~.

     On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
     <mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid





     --      Jack Smith

     English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
     other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

--
Email from my mobile connection.



markus baur
 

Am 08.10.2017 um 17:50 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
Wind and solar with batteries and  diesel (or natural gas) back up is a good plan in general for the short term as the technology improves ( this is what I have been looking at for a personal system).  It improves the load management for the grid.  The primary advantage is the long term diversification of the system with shorter power lines is advantageous.  When my brother did an analysis of the US power system he found 50% of power generated is used up in transmission. If 20% is wasted in storage and 15% is wasted in transmission of Natural Gas the system from that becomes more efficient in the net as large natural gas piston engines are as efficient as steam turbines burning gas. Wind and Solar being undependable are massively problematic for the grid. Diesel/Natural gas generators need only run about 8 hours per month to keep seals etc in shape.  Overproduction of electricity from wind and solar could easily be shunted for chemical production using smaller automated plants with disbursed manufacturing.
or store the energy as supercooled salt brine for air conditioning during the day ..

Dual cycle gas turbine/ steam turbine yield up to 60% thermodynamic efficiency, but need around 24 hours from zero to full efficiency and throttling them up and down to take care of peaks makes them no more efficient than piston engines (Caterpillar and Waukesha being two major manufacturers of large piston engines
only forgetting the largest one - Wärtsila 8)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4rtsil%C3%A4#Engines

smaller ones Perkins ( now a caterpillar subsidiary)  builds high efficiency diesel engines in the 50 KW range.
something that might be interesting for companies in tropical countries might be a small diesel or LNG engine for electricity, with its waste heat driving an adsorbtion cooler for air conditioning or product cooling

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

waste heat air conditioning / cooling is now used in quite a number of industries "over here"

servus

markus

Since Puerto Rico is rebuilding from scratch it mght be a good time to use a new model of electrical production.
On 10/07/2017 02:00 PM, markus baur wrote:
Am 07.10.2017 um 19:51 schrieb Patricia Mathews:

For large output,  no indeed. For small-scale electricity production - are we talking industrial level here? Or a poor backwoods home that's helpless when the grid goes down? - solar with a decent battery setup and a plain old-fashioned ranch-style windmill helps a lot.
yes - depending on the location wind might help a lot ..

we are at the point where the solar cells themselves are the cheap part of the whole system

http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdnocom/files/2014/10/solar-PV-price-trends-2013.png

the expensive part is installation costs - this still needs a lot of improvement

servus

markus

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of markus baur <baur@...>
*Sent:* Saturday, October 7, 2017 11:12 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft, monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and power company.  When you add the cost of erecting power poles or digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large output. Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large scale generation.
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q
<https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>

Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas ... <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>
www.greentechmedia.com
Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout America



this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with
consumer systems

solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving

servus

markus




On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:

Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine .... maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and some electricity.



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*From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
*Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
*To:* stirling@groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized, less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@... <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:

     But not ~fast~.

     On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
     <mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:

http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid





     --      Jack Smith

     English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
     other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

--
Email from my mobile connection.




--
Email from my mobile connection.

joatsimeon
 

Most forms of power generation have -really big- economies of scale.


From: Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io <moors710@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Oct 8, 2017 9:51 am
Subject: Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid

Wind and solar with batteries and  diesel (or natural gas) back up is a
good plan in general for the short term as the technology improves (
this is what I have been looking at for a personal system).  It improves
the load management for the grid.  The primary advantage is the long
term diversification of the system with shorter power lines is
advantageous.  When my brother did an analysis of the US power system he
found 50% of power generated is used up in transmission. If 20% is
wasted in storage and 15% is wasted in transmission of Natural Gas the
system from that becomes more efficient in the net as large natural gas
piston engines are as efficient as steam turbines burning gas. Wind and
Solar being undependable are massively problematic for the grid.
Diesel/Natural gas generators need only run about 8 hours per month to
keep seals etc in shape.  Overproduction of electricity from wind and
solar could easily be shunted for chemical production using smaller
automated plants with disbursed manufacturing.

Dual cycle gas turbine/ steam turbine yield up to 60% thermodynamic
efficiency, but need around 24 hours from zero to full efficiency and 
throttling them up and down to take care of peaks makes them no more
efficient than piston engines (Caterpillar and Waukesha being two major
manufacturers of large piston engines smaller ones Perkins ( now a
caterpillar subsidiary)  builds high efficiency diesel engines in the 50
KW range.

Since Puerto Rico is rebuilding from scratch it mght be a good time to
use a new model of electrical production.


On 10/07/2017 02:00 PM, markus baur wrote:
> Am 07.10.2017 um 19:51 schrieb Patricia Mathews:
>>
>> For large output,  no indeed. For small-scale electricity production
>> - are we talking industrial level here? Or a poor backwoods home
>> that's helpless when the grid goes down? - solar with a decent
>> battery setup and a plain old-fashioned ranch-style windmill helps a
>> lot.
>
> yes - depending on the location wind might help a lot ..
>
> we are at the point where the solar cells themselves are the cheap
> part of the whole system
>
> http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdnocom/files/2014/10/solar-PV-price-trends-2013.png
>
>
> the expensive part is installation costs - this still needs a lot of
> improvement
>
> servus
>
> markus
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of markus
>> baur <baur@...>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 7, 2017 11:12 AM
>> *To:* stirling@groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power grid
>> Am 07.10.2017 um 18:58 schrieb Marvin Carlson via Groups.Io:
>>> A while back I did a trade between solar and power grid.  I came up
>>> with: For a simple connection ding in cable cable about 100 ft,
>>> monthly connection costs, and paying 0.1 for electricity (North
>>> Dakota) with a 20 year panel life 1 kwh/day was break even solar and
>>> power company.  When you add the cost of erecting power poles or
>>> digging in cable a greater distance the numbers go up.  Diesel
>>> generators come in at around 25kwh/day break even with solar. I have
>>> never seen solar competitive with power grid or diesel for large
>>> output. Solar and wind are expensive compared to bio-diesel in large
>>> scale generation.
>>
>> https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q
>>
>> <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>
>>
>>
>> Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas ...
>> <https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America#gs.Q4quu4Q>
>> www.greentechmedia.com
>> Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout
>> America
>>
>>
>>
>> this is however utility scale installations .. so not comparable with
>> consumer systems
>>
>> solar cell cost and consumer scale storage cost is still nosediving
>>
>> servus
>>
>> markus
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 10/06/2017 06:08 PM, Patricia Mathews wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Solar + batteries sounds like something the Navajos should look
>>>> into for their far-scattered hogans. Rural, lots of sunshine ....
>>>> maybe not on the Tesla level, but enough to provide lighting and
>>>> some electricity.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* stirling@groups.io <stirling@groups.io> on behalf of Bobby
>>>> Hardenbrook <bobby.hardenbrook@...>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 6, 2017 10:47 AM
>>>> *To:* stirling@groups.io
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [stirling] Musk: Tesla can rebuild Puerto Rico power
>>>> grid
>>>>
>>>> This does seem to be a powerful advantage of the solar+battery
>>>> stack for individual homes and businesses. Much more decentralized,
>>>> less pressure on grids with every percentage point of homes that
>>>> have these. A lot more expensive than buying a generator BUT you
>>>> don't have to worry about fuel and there's less maintenance.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:43 AM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...
>>>> <mailto:jack.delbert@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      But not ~fast~.
>>>>
>>>>      On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:29 AM, Andrew Gray <aggray@...
>>>>      <mailto:aggray@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://thehill.com/policy/technology/354154-musk-tesla-can-rebuild-puerto-rico-power-grid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      --      Jack Smith
>>>>
>>>>      English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows
>>>>      other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Email from my mobile connection.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




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