Date   

Re: a writer's life (college)

 

Or sometimes its only one parent to blame.  To the degree my brother and I were not just 'bad seed', it was 200% my mother's fault.  My poor father was a saint who should have killed both his kids [me and my brother] and his wife to be rid of the three demons who plagued his life.


On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:03 PM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
Every once in a while, you can't take the blame (or credit) for the kid you raise.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:02 AM Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
Parents seem to be immune from seeing the self-fulfilling prophecies they create. I've always gotten a bitter laugh out of people who complain about their kids when they get to be teens (or older). My response is along the lines of "And where were you when that defective personality was being crafted?..." As for my own kids (who turned out okay), my old friends tend to say things like "Apple: Tree."


--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

All knowledge is on the list---question about Russian Orthodoxy

Eric Oppen
 

I was thinking today about the Old Believers---basically, Russian Orthodox Christians who weren't cool with the reforms introduced under Peter the Great's father, Alexei the Mild.  

I got to wondering---if I were a regular Russian Orthodox Christian, and came to the conclusion that the Old Believers were in the right, or the other way around, (an Old Believer who decided that the reformers were right after all) what would I have to do?  Just start attending services of the people I think are right, or would I have to be re-baptized or re-confirmed?


Re: a writer's life (college)

Eric Oppen
 

There are some kids who just plain old Come Out Wrong.  Rhoda Penmark (of The Bad Seed) was by no means impossible, however much her portrayal in that book, play and movie made Certain Parties clutch their pearls). 

We had one of those flame out spectacularly in Iowa a few years back.  If you're interested, I can point you to a news story about him 

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
Every once in a while, you can't take the blame (or credit) for the kid you raise.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:02 AM Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
Parents seem to be immune from seeing the self-fulfilling prophecies they create. I've always gotten a bitter laugh out of people who complain about their kids when they get to be teens (or older). My response is along the lines of "And where were you when that defective personality was being crafted?..." As for my own kids (who turned out okay), my old friends tend to say things like "Apple: Tree."


--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life (college)

Jack Smith
 

Every once in a while, you can't take the blame (or credit) for the kid you raise.


On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 9:02 AM Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
Parents seem to be immune from seeing the self-fulfilling prophecies they create. I've always gotten a bitter laugh out of people who complain about their kids when they get to be teens (or older). My response is along the lines of "And where were you when that defective personality was being crafted?..." As for my own kids (who turned out okay), my old friends tend to say things like "Apple: Tree."



--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life (college)

Ron Seiden
 

Parents seem to be immune from seeing the self-fulfilling prophecies they create. I've always gotten a bitter laugh out of people who complain about their kids when they get to be teens (or older). My response is along the lines of "And where were you when that defective personality was being crafted?..." As for my own kids (who turned out okay), my old friends tend to say things like "Apple: Tree."

Re: Ur - The Ancient City ISOT to 11,000 BC

Bobby Hardenbrook
 

Yep, we very much agree on this.

My own pet theory based on a lot of reading and musing is that a widespread settled culture existed all around the fertile crescent from the beginning of the late neolithic to about 8000 BC. These people were doing monumental megalithic constructions from at least 12,500 BC and also doing pretty sophisticated stone artwork. I don't buy that they were "hunter/gatherers" in the usual sense of the word. Yes, they were "hunting and gathering" but they were doing so quite intensively and clearly living in small settled towns. 
    There isn't really a good analog of this anytime in recent history since we've only studied marginal hunter/gatherers on lands that agricultural civilizations couldn't exploit. They didn't need a lot of specialization and hierarchy because they were simply intensively gathering and hunting from a rich and fertile landscape. But there were certainly temples being built,stone cutting and artwork, small villages and towns with monumental walls and towers, etc. Jericho's earliest walls and towers date to ~ 8300 BC. Tell Qaramel had similar structures from as early as 10,000 BC or a bit older even. Then you have the huge megalithic complex at Gobekli Tepe going back to 12,500 BC. If there are these few sites discovered and excavated then its safe to say there were a lot more lost to subsequent urban development or still buried beneath unexcavated tells, etc.  
    What seems to have happened is that a climate change or shift of some sort caused this earlier neolithic culture to collapse. Settlements seem to disappear for the most part and when villages and towns reappear starting from ~ 7000 BC they are clearly early _farmers_ and clearly not culturally linked to the earlier pre-agricultural settled culture which I will called the "settled gatherers". 
Its probably no accident that Gobekli Tepe was intentionally buried around 8000 BC....either the last remnants of the settled gatherer culture were intentionally preserving their legacy OR the dark age peoples from after the collapse of the settled gatherers were erasing the memory of their betters from a previous age who had clearly "angered the gods" or some-such.
     Makes one wonder if part of the universal "golden age" and "eden" type myths were a memory of the gatherer culture who had lived a more idyllic life from their perspective. Think about it : the settled gatherers were simply gathering their calories from a lush landscape that provided everything they needed, they had no firm social hierarchy, they had no domestic animals except presumably dogs...which probably meant virtually no communicative diseases.
   If you were an average person doing subsistence farming in a fertile crescent settlement circa 6800 BC there were probably still monumental ruins of the settled gatherer era around in relatively good shape and an intact oral tradition from those times speaking of the lush landscape and idyllic culture, etc. I.E. the development of agriculture and animal domestication was an adaptation to survive in a harsher climate...and the average person was probably A LOT worse off than the average person of the settled gatherer era. One might argue that this equation didn't really shift until the iron age if not later. 


On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 6:26 AM Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
Re:
"Gobekli Tepe blows a huge, gaping, hole in mainstream archaeology that they still haven't fully acknowledged or recognized. We're talking about significant megalithic constructions and quality stone artwork stretching back to at least 11,000 BC and probably more like 12,500 BC based on the ground penetrating radar showing numerous larger, earlier, stone circles that are in layers dated to that earlier date. 
 
The mainstream response right now is basically "hunter gatherers could apparently do more than we thought, mumble mumble". "

Egyptologists had to give up their position as earliest major civilization -- a real blow to their status. Gobekli Tepe also destroyed the previously firmly held view that agriculture came first and then mass religion. The structures there showed that hunter/gatherers could and did have large/complex religious structures and mass gatherings prior to settling down into agricultural communities. What's really a kick in the head is that all this occurred prior to the official end of the last major Ice Age. Also, the figures carved on the structures showed that these supposedly primitive people had trade far wider than ever could have been previously believed. Basically, everything that had been gospel in the world of archaeology has gotten thrown in the trash heap and they are now running around like chickens without heads trying desperately to come up with explanations or theories to cover it. If we ever get underwater archaeology going as much as we should, I'm sure we will find lots more that will shake up old theories as much if not more. With all this kind of stuff showing up, the "ancient aliens" folks are losing a lot of their supporting "where did it come from and how did it arrive so early?"

Dutch Stormwater Management

Jayson R
 

“60 Minutes” story about Dutch stormwater management (transcript and video).

Re: a writer's life

 

Not exactly but explaining why is pure Modpol so pass


On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 4:35 PM Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...> wrote:
Not at all.  Affirmative action is letting in qualified people that have been kept out through prejudice.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 5:28 PM James Proffer <james@...> wrote:
On Sun, 2018-09-23 at 16:09 -0500, agingcow2345 wrote:
Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


Sounds much like an early failure for affirmative action.


--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life

 

Wasn't racial.  Was IQ/prior police record/highest level of schooling etc.  Services had gotten picky about who they took.  They needed under 40% of each year class, so wanted the recruits who were easier to train and command, who performed better.


On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 4:28 PM James Proffer <james@...> wrote:
On Sun, 2018-09-23 at 16:09 -0500, agingcow2345 wrote:
Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


Sounds much like an early failure for affirmative action.

Re: a writer's life

 

There is much confusion (even among supporters) between the terms 'Affirmative Action' and 'Quotas'.  They are not meant to be the same. AA actually means broadening the hunt for candidates by looking outside the normal box of cultural potential candidates (i.e. - those already known to the hiring officer through personal & professional relationships). The use of quotas by some administrators as a substitute for actually doing that broadening was contrary to the original intent of the term 'affirmative action', and essentially constituted sabotage against the policy (knowingly or not, it had the same effect). I once met a frustrated company official who didn't 'get' the concept at all - to him, looking at any candidate other than the narrow band he was used to dealing with was deeply threatening, so he ignored all potential new sources of good candidates and only looked in places where the job's criteria could not be met. That way he could legitimately claim that the 'new candidates' he was getting were not qualified. Well yeah, if you try to hire welders from a liberal arts college you're unlikely to find any good ones, but looking in a broader selection of community college welding programs might get you some. But he'd never gone to any of those other CC job fairs to recruit, and didn't want to, because he felt deeply uncomfortable when surrounded by people that were of a different skin color and accent than he was used to. For him, the priority was his own comfort, and never mind the company's needs or any other issue. He was eventually replaced when he consistently failed to meet his assigned hiring goals, and his replacement didn't have his cultural blinders on. So the new guy recruited from _all_ of the CCs, but still kept the stringent requirements. Result was a full employee roster, some variation in the company's skin color selection, and an overall more motivated work force (because they knew they were the best). Win-win. By then I wasn't working there any more (went off to college) but they managed pretty well with an integrated work force chosen by merit from a bigger pool.

Peter S.


From: Jack Smith <jack.delbert@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2018 3:35 pm
Subject: Re: [stirling] a writer's life

Not at all.  Affirmative action is letting in qualified people that have been kept out through prejudice.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 5:28 PM James Proffer <james@...> wrote:
On Sun, 2018-09-23 at 16:09 -0500, agingcow2345 wrote:
Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


Sounds much like an early failure for affirmative action.


--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life

Jack Smith
 

Not at all.  Affirmative action is letting in qualified people that have been kept out through prejudice.


On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 5:28 PM James Proffer <james@...> wrote:
On Sun, 2018-09-23 at 16:09 -0500, agingcow2345 wrote:
Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


Sounds much like an early failure for affirmative action.



--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life

James Proffer
 

On Sun, 2018-09-23 at 16:09 -0500, agingcow2345 wrote:
Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


Sounds much like an early failure for affirmative action.

Re: a writer's life

 

Confusion of cart and horse.  People with degrees tend to do better because of other qualities that the completion of the degree validates.  Similar thing happened during the Vietnam War.  Various studies showed that veterans did better in life on a variety of measurements.  So the then SecDef MacNamara [a stat junkie] forced the military to waive their standards on 100K draftees/enlistees as a social engineering project.  It backfired completely [drug epidemics and race riots in barracks etc.] which retrospectively validated the original standards.


On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 2:43 PM Peter Sartucci via Groups.Io <psartucci=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

At the end of his book The Great Monkey Trial (which I do highly recommend) L. Sprague de Camp commented that a lot of students, in high school and college, resisted learning anything at all with a devotion worthy of a better cause.  I would say that a big part of the problem is that we damn well insist that everybody stay in school, often far past the point where they can actually learn new things.
I agree.
There is an abiding faith that education is some sort of lengthy and complex magic spell, one that admits the student to a 'Better World' if he/she can just manage to graduate and get the paper talisman conferred at the end.
Reality is rather different.
If we used some effective and accurate criteria to sort students, a fair number would not fit into the magic machinery at all, and recognizing this earlier would do both them and the rest a lot of good.

Peter S,


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2018 12:25 pm
Subject: Re: [stirling] a writer's life

At the end of his book The Great Monkey Trial (which I do highly recommend) L. Sprague de Camp commented that a lot of students, in high school and college, resisted learning anything at all with a devotion worthy of a better cause.  I would say that a big part of the problem is that we damn well insist that everybody stay in school, often far past the point where they can actually learn new things.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
I had the opposite experience. All through HS I complained to my mother that most of the other kids were idiots -- and she kept promising me that it would be better in college. Then I got to college and had experiences like the one kid complaining, as we exited our freshman English class, "Why does she keep using all those big words? She knows we don't know what they mean." At that point I gave up, realizing that no matter what the environment, most people were not only jerks but actually defensive about it, preferring their level of ignorance to the possibility of learning anything...

Re: a writer's life

Jack Smith
 



On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 3:43 PM Peter Sartucci via Groups.Io <psartucci=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I agree. 
There is an abiding faith that education is some sort of lengthy and complex magic spell, one that admits the student to a 'Better World' if he/she can just manage to graduate and get the paper talisman conferred at the end.
Reality is rather different.
If we used some effective and accurate criteria to sort students, a fair number would not fit into the magic machinery at all, and recognizing this earlier would do both them and the rest a lot of good.

Peter S,

_._,_._,_

So far, the best algorithm is, "let them try".

--
Jack Smith

English doesn't borrow from other languages -- English follows other languages down dark alleys and takes what it wants.

Re: a writer's life

 


At the end of his book The Great Monkey Trial (which I do highly recommend) L. Sprague de Camp commented that a lot of students, in high school and college, resisted learning anything at all with a devotion worthy of a better cause.  I would say that a big part of the problem is that we damn well insist that everybody stay in school, often far past the point where they can actually learn new things.
I agree.
There is an abiding faith that education is some sort of lengthy and complex magic spell, one that admits the student to a 'Better World' if he/she can just manage to graduate and get the paper talisman conferred at the end.
Reality is rather different.
If we used some effective and accurate criteria to sort students, a fair number would not fit into the magic machinery at all, and recognizing this earlier would do both them and the rest a lot of good.

Peter S,


From: Eric Oppen <ravenclaweric@...>
To: stirling <stirling@groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2018 12:25 pm
Subject: Re: [stirling] a writer's life

At the end of his book The Great Monkey Trial (which I do highly recommend) L. Sprague de Camp commented that a lot of students, in high school and college, resisted learning anything at all with a devotion worthy of a better cause.  I would say that a big part of the problem is that we damn well insist that everybody stay in school, often far past the point where they can actually learn new things.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
I had the opposite experience. All through HS I complained to my mother that most of the other kids were idiots -- and she kept promising me that it would be better in college. Then I got to college and had experiences like the one kid complaining, as we exited our freshman English class, "Why does she keep using all those big words? She knows we don't know what they mean." At that point I gave up, realizing that no matter what the environment, most people were not only jerks but actually defensive about it, preferring their level of ignorance to the possibility of learning anything...

Re: a writer's life

Eric Oppen
 

At the end of his book The Great Monkey Trial (which I do highly recommend) L. Sprague de Camp commented that a lot of students, in high school and college, resisted learning anything at all with a devotion worthy of a better cause.  I would say that a big part of the problem is that we damn well insist that everybody stay in school, often far past the point where they can actually learn new things.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
I had the opposite experience. All through HS I complained to my mother that most of the other kids were idiots -- and she kept promising me that it would be better in college. Then I got to college and had experiences like the one kid complaining, as we exited our freshman English class, "Why does she keep using all those big words? She knows we don't know what they mean." At that point I gave up, realizing that no matter what the environment, most people were not only jerks but actually defensive about it, preferring their level of ignorance to the possibility of learning anything...

Re: Ur - The Ancient City ISOT to 11,000 BC

Michael Walsh
 

Honestly the floods at the end of the ice age likely wiped out far more than we imagine, as implied by the remnant stories we have of said events.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 6:26 AM Ron Seiden <ronseiden@...> wrote:
Re:
"Gobekli Tepe blows a huge, gaping, hole in mainstream archaeology that they still haven't fully acknowledged or recognized. We're talking about significant megalithic constructions and quality stone artwork stretching back to at least 11,000 BC and probably more like 12,500 BC based on the ground penetrating radar showing numerous larger, earlier, stone circles that are in layers dated to that earlier date. 
 
The mainstream response right now is basically "hunter gatherers could apparently do more than we thought, mumble mumble". "

Egyptologists had to give up their position as earliest major civilization -- a real blow to their status. Gobekli Tepe also destroyed the previously firmly held view that agriculture came first and then mass religion. The structures there showed that hunter/gatherers could and did have large/complex religious structures and mass gatherings prior to settling down into agricultural communities. What's really a kick in the head is that all this occurred prior to the official end of the last major Ice Age. Also, the figures carved on the structures showed that these supposedly primitive people had trade far wider than ever could have been previously believed. Basically, everything that had been gospel in the world of archaeology has gotten thrown in the trash heap and they are now running around like chickens without heads trying desperately to come up with explanations or theories to cover it. If we ever get underwater archaeology going as much as we should, I'm sure we will find lots more that will shake up old theories as much if not more. With all this kind of stuff showing up, the "ancient aliens" folks are losing a lot of their supporting "where did it come from and how did it arrive so early?"

Turks then and now

Dan Daast
 

An old story I stumbled across. Very 'Sherlock Holmes' type of situation (for me) seems "elementary" and logical after the fact.

Apparently the facial reconstructions of the early Turks (6th-7th century AD), reveal them to be of fairly typical Central Asian/East Asian appearence. Not someone that would stand out among Genghis's Mongols of half a millenium later.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=32674

Which would suggest that the modern Turks, ethnically at least, are very much descendants of the Byzantine (Greek, mostly, one would assume) population of Anatoia that was conquered by the Seljuks and Ottomans after Manzikert but not demographically displaced  - as was the case with Britons and Saxons, for example.

Re: Mastodon Bone Findings Could Upend Our Understanding of Human History

Tarl Neustaedter
 

On 2018-Sep-23 11:45 , Tarl Neustaedter wrote:

This sounds like something I saw published about six months to a year ago. The key element was how they determined the stones were tools - and that produced immense skepticism. My recollection is that the next week several people documented that the shapes in question were known to be formed by natural processes.

Looking again, this NBC News article is from April. So this is almost certainly the same thing I saw in Nature back then. This report was probably written the week the discovery was announced, and before the refutations came in.

Re: Mastodon Bone Findings Could Upend Our Understanding of Human History

Tarl Neustaedter
 

On 2018-Sep-23 11:30 , James Proffer wrote:


The absence of cut marks is curious but could, perhaps, be explained by scavenging an old skeleton.  The claim of near to the shore of an ocean 130 meters below today's sea level needs more description.  There was a claim of stone tools but no description of these tools.  The biggest discrepancy is where are all the other sites.  This is an interesting asserting which needs the buttressing of more facts.

This sounds like something I saw published about six months to a year ago. The key element was how they determined the stones were tools - and that produced immense skepticism. My recollection is that the next week several people documented that the shapes in question were known to be formed by natural processes.