Foresail


Damian
 

Hi all. I'm looking for some help trying to find a foresail for my senior. I'm very new to sailing and know nothing about buying new/used sails. The boat only came with its main sail. The forestay has a furling mechanism. What should I ne looking for and how do I know what size works. 
I'm up in Lancashire.
Thanks for any help.
D


Oliver Shaw
 

Damian,

 

We have at least two Shipmates,  I think three,  at Liverpool SC;  and I myself have what has been described as a “stretched Shipmate”,  a Privateer 20 (same era,  same designer,  same builder).

 

If you care to make contact off-list I am sure that I can arrange introductions to owners,  who may well be able to help you with sizes;   acapella13934 “AT” talktalk.net.

 

I myself have been sailing almost continuously since my teens (and I am now 79),  so I have a certain amount of experience and expertise that may be helpful to you.

 

We are getting a bit close to Christmas,  and (Covid scenario permitting) I plan to be away for about a fortnight almost straight after Christmas,   so if it is not urgent I suggest that we aim to meet up some time in the second half of January.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

Oliver

 

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Damian via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 17:09
To: shipmate@groups.io
Subject: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Hi all. I'm looking for some help trying to find a foresail for my senior. I'm very new to sailing and know nothing about buying new/used sails. The boat only came with its main sail. The forestay has a furling mechanism. What should I ne looking for and how do I know what size works. 
I'm up in Lancashire.
Thanks for any help.
D


Phil Weston
 

Damian:

 

  • Thanks for getting in touch !
  • Oliver is well experienced with Shipmates, so should be able to help guide you.
  • Getting a jib should be relatively straight forward but can present some pitfalls.
  • I.e. finding one at an acceptable price, and making sure the dimensions are correct.
  • The attached “leaflet” gives some measurements, but be aware that as the boats have been around for a while , it always possible an owner might have made some modifications  that mean a replacement jib could be marginally different.
  • I have also attached the “handbook” which might provide some info that is of interest (see page 8) - no guarantees.

 

Phil Weston, Fareham, Hampshire.

 

PS : Does your Shipmate have a name / sail number ?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Oliver Shaw via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 18:22
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian,

 

We have at least two Shipmates,  I think three,  at Liverpool SC;  and I myself have what has been described as a “stretched Shipmate”,  a Privateer 20 (same era,  same designer,  same builder).

 

If you care to make contact off-list I am sure that I can arrange introductions to owners,  who may well be able to help you with sizes;   acapella13934 “AT” talktalk.net.

 

I myself have been sailing almost continuously since my teens (and I am now 79),  so I have a certain amount of experience and expertise that may be helpful to you.

 

We are getting a bit close to Christmas,  and (Covid scenario permitting) I plan to be away for about a fortnight almost straight after Christmas,   so if it is not urgent I suggest that we aim to meet up some time in the second half of January.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

Oliver

 

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Damian via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 17:09
To: shipmate@groups.io
Subject: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Hi all. I'm looking for some help trying to find a foresail for my senior. I'm very new to sailing and know nothing about buying new/used sails. The boat only came with its main sail. The forestay has a furling mechanism. What should I ne looking for and how do I know what size works. 
I'm up in Lancashire.
Thanks for any help.
D

 


Oliver Shaw
 

Damian,

 

Phil’s attachments are useful, but I should point out that the otherwise excellent and informative Handbook is typical of its date  -  several years ago,   and in one important respect may be considered now out of date.

 

I refer to distress signals.   Pyrotechnic flares have long been a cause of concern for a great many reasons,  including seriously dangerous misfires (even when well in date and used by skilled professionals).    There have been incidents of misfires causing fires or even explosions onboard,  and at least one case of a professional Yachtmaster Instructor being shot in the stomach while demonstrating the use of a collision avoidance flare to his students.

 

A further problem with flares,  albeit a smaller one,  is that they have a life of only three years,  and after that there is a very real problem of how to dispose of them.   The old practice of tying them to a couple of bricks and dumping them a suitable distance offshore is most certainly now frowned upon,  and I suspect that it is also now illegal.   The chandler who supplies the replacements may possibly accept the retired ones back for disposal,  as may the manufacturers;  but there is no certainty.   If all else fails the Coastguard will currently accept them,  but not necessarily at all centres,  and it may involve a drive of several hundred miles to deliver them.

 

At the time the Handbook was written there was no satisfactory alternative to carrying flares;   but there is now.   For vessels less than 45-ft LOA,  which of course include your Shipmate,  the very strong recommendation is get rid of flares,  and instead use a combination of marine VHF plus either Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) or an Electronic Position Indicting Radio Beacon (EPIRB).     The capital cost of a PLB is comparable with that of a decent set of flares,  the life is indefinite (rather than a mere three years) although you will need to replace the battery about every five years,  there ae no end of life disposal problems,  and there is a guarantee that the distress signal will be observed (compared with merely chance in the case of a visual signal),  and the signal is transmitted for at least 24 hours (48 for an EPIRB)  -  as compared with only a very few minutes with a pyrotechnic flare.

 

No contest,  in my book!

 

 

Oliver

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Weston
Sent: 15 December 2021 20:30
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw <acapella13934@...>
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian:

 

  • Thanks for getting in touch !
  • Oliver is well experienced with Shipmates, so should be able to help guide you.
  • Getting a jib should be relatively straight forward but can present some pitfalls.
  • I.e. finding one at an acceptable price, and making sure the dimensions are correct.
  • The attached “leaflet” gives some measurements, but be aware that as the boats have been around for a while , it always possible an owner might have made some modifications  that mean a replacement jib could be marginally different.
  • I have also attached the “handbook” which might provide some info that is of interest (see page 8) - no guarantees.

 

Phil Weston, Fareham, Hampshire.

 

PS : Does your Shipmate have a name / sail number ?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Oliver Shaw via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 18:22
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian,

 

We have at least two Shipmates,  I think three,  at Liverpool SC;  and I myself have what has been described as a “stretched Shipmate”,  a Privateer 20 (same era,  same designer,  same builder).

 

If you care to make contact off-list I am sure that I can arrange introductions to owners,  who may well be able to help you with sizes;   acapella13934 “AT” talktalk.net.

 

I myself have been sailing almost continuously since my teens (and I am now 79),  so I have a certain amount of experience and expertise that may be helpful to you.

 

We are getting a bit close to Christmas,  and (Covid scenario permitting) I plan to be away for about a fortnight almost straight after Christmas,   so if it is not urgent I suggest that we aim to meet up some time in the second half of January.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

Oliver

 

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Damian via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 17:09
To: shipmate@groups.io
Subject: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Hi all. I'm looking for some help trying to find a foresail for my senior. I'm very new to sailing and know nothing about buying new/used sails. The boat only came with its main sail. The forestay has a furling mechanism. What should I ne looking for and how do I know what size works. 
I'm up in Lancashire.
Thanks for any help.
D

 


Phil Weston
 

Re Flares / Distress

 

  • quite agree the old style pyrothenics  have there downside and the modern solutions are better.
  • I had some out of date ones, until recently, that needed disposing but wasn’t sure where to take them. Luckily an event during the summer at Chichester Marina had an “exhibitor” that was taking them in , at a modest price.  
  • glad to hand the flares over – dated 1980s !

 

Handbook – been thinking it might benefit from refreshing.

 

Phil

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Oliver Shaw via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 21:31
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian,

 

Phil’s attachments are useful, but I should point out that the otherwise excellent and informative Handbook is typical of its date  -  several years ago,   and in one important respect may be considered now out of date.

 

I refer to distress signals.   Pyrotechnic flares have long been a cause of concern for a great many reasons,  including seriously dangerous misfires (even when well in date and used by skilled professionals).    There have been incidents of misfires causing fires or even explosions onboard,  and at least one case of a professional Yachtmaster Instructor being shot in the stomach while demonstrating the use of a collision avoidance flare to his students.

 

A further problem with flares,  albeit a smaller one,  is that they have a life of only three years,  and after that there is a very real problem of how to dispose of them.   The old practice of tying them to a couple of bricks and dumping them a suitable distance offshore is most certainly now frowned upon,  and I suspect that it is also now illegal.   The chandler who supplies the replacements may possibly accept the retired ones back for disposal,  as may the manufacturers;  but there is no certainty.   If all else fails the Coastguard will currently accept them,  but not necessarily at all centres,  and it may involve a drive of several hundred miles to deliver them.

 

At the time the Handbook was written there was no satisfactory alternative to carrying flares;   but there is now.   For vessels less than 45-ft LOA,  which of course include your Shipmate,  the very strong recommendation is get rid of flares,  and instead use a combination of marine VHF plus either Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) or an Electronic Position Indicting Radio Beacon (EPIRB).     The capital cost of a PLB is comparable with that of a decent set of flares,  the life is indefinite (rather than a mere three years) although you will need to replace the battery about every five years,  there ae no end of life disposal problems,  and there is a guarantee that the distress signal will be observed (compared with merely chance in the case of a visual signal),  and the signal is transmitted for at least 24 hours (48 for an EPIRB)  -  as compared with only a very few minutes with a pyrotechnic flare.

 

No contest,  in my book!

 

 

Oliver

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Phil Weston
Sent: 15 December 2021 20:30
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw <acapella13934@...>
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian:

 

  • Thanks for getting in touch !
  • Oliver is well experienced with Shipmates, so should be able to help guide you.
  • Getting a jib should be relatively straight forward but can present some pitfalls.
  • I.e. finding one at an acceptable price, and making sure the dimensions are correct.
  • The attached “leaflet” gives some measurements, but be aware that as the boats have been around for a while , it always possible an owner might have made some modifications  that mean a replacement jib could be marginally different.
  • I have also attached the “handbook” which might provide some info that is of interest (see page 8) - no guarantees.

 

Phil Weston, Fareham, Hampshire.

 

PS : Does your Shipmate have a name / sail number ?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Oliver Shaw via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 18:22
To: shipmate@groups.io
Cc: Oliver Shaw
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Damian,

 

We have at least two Shipmates,  I think three,  at Liverpool SC;  and I myself have what has been described as a “stretched Shipmate”,  a Privateer 20 (same era,  same designer,  same builder).

 

If you care to make contact off-list I am sure that I can arrange introductions to owners,  who may well be able to help you with sizes;   acapella13934 “AT” talktalk.net.

 

I myself have been sailing almost continuously since my teens (and I am now 79),  so I have a certain amount of experience and expertise that may be helpful to you.

 

We are getting a bit close to Christmas,  and (Covid scenario permitting) I plan to be away for about a fortnight almost straight after Christmas,   so if it is not urgent I suggest that we aim to meet up some time in the second half of January.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

Oliver

 

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Damian via groups.io
Sent: 15 December 2021 17:09
To: shipmate@groups.io
Subject: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Hi all. I'm looking for some help trying to find a foresail for my senior. I'm very new to sailing and know nothing about buying new/used sails. The boat only came with its main sail. The forestay has a furling mechanism. What should I ne looking for and how do I know what size works. 
I'm up in Lancashire.
Thanks for any help.
D

 

 


Damian
 

Hi Oliver

Thank you very much for your kind offer. I'd very much enjoy seeing other similar boats to mine to get a better idea how to improve my own. You never know, it might be one you have come across before. 


Damian
 

Hi Phil

Again, thank you for taking the time to send me these. Very useful and exactly what i'm looking for with the info on the sail size. I'll get the sail out as soon as i have chance and let you know the number. As for her name, there's non that i'm aware of but keen to try to dig up some history.


Oliver Shaw
 

Damian,

 

Let’s target second half of January;    all being well (and Covid restrictions permitting) I hope to be going to visit family after Christmas,  returning mid-January.

 

 

 

Oliver

 

 

From: shipmate@groups.io <shipmate@groups.io> On Behalf Of Damian via groups.io
Sent: 17 December 2021 22:55
To: shipmate@groups.io
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

 

Hi Oliver

Thank you very much for your kind offer. I'd very much enjoy seeing other similar boats to mine to get a better idea how to improve my own. You never know, it might be one you have come across before. 


Michael Walton
 

Hello Damian

I have just removed my furling spar from the garage loft and measured it for you, along with foresail sizes.

My Holt Allen spar has a maximum slot length of 161ins/4.1m

My Genoa has a luff(the edge that slots into the spar) of 158ins. The foot( the bottom of the sails that leads back towards the stern) of 93ins.

I have a spare jib that I was sold as a GP14 dinghy foresail that slots nicely into the spar. It has a luff of 158ins also but a foot of only 67ins. I carry this as a spare but have never used it. If you attend Bala meeting next May and still have no foresail you are welcome to borrow this. Do check the length of the slot in your own furling spar as some Shipmates no longer have original masts etc and may have odd sizes.

On my last Shipmate which I converted to furling foresail, I had a Genoa which used to hank onto the forestay. I cut/unscrewed the hanks and slid the sail into the foil slot but it pulled out easily. I slotted a 10mm(?) rope into the sleeve along the front edge of the sail for the whole length of the luff and then slid/pulled the rope/sail luff into the slot which fitted very tightly. I never removed the sail from the spar for the rest of my ownership and never had any problems with this arrangement.

Good luck with your search. I bought many sails off ebay, my main is now a GP14 which was unused. I bought it off ebay from a local sailing school, 3mains and 3 foresails for £15.

I sold 2 of the mains and 2 of the foresails. My mainsail cost me MINUS £50.

Mike





------ Original Message ------
From: "Damian via groups.io" <damoroberts@...>
To: shipmate@groups.io
Sent: Friday, 17 Dec, 21 At 23:18
Subject: Re: [shipmate] Foresail

Hi Phil

Again, thank you for taking the time to send me these. Very useful and exactly what i'm looking for with the info on the sail size. I'll get the sail out as soon as i have chance and let you know the number. As for her name, there's non that i'm aware of but keen to try to dig up some history.


Oliver Shaw
 

On Sat, Dec 18, 2021 at 10:50 AM, Michael Walton wrote:
> My Holt Allen spar has ...   ...
It may be of interest,  and perhaps relevance,  to note that the Holt Mini-reef system is now obsolete,  and Holt can no longer supply spares for it.

For many years another very popular headsail reefing system for larger dinghies and trailer-sailer yachts was that developed by Rob Helyar,  as Flexible Reefing Spars.  Indeed I have used it on three of my boats over the years,  and have been instrumental in it being used on at least one of our club Wayfarers,  and I have long recommended it to other private owners.    However Rob has very recently retired because the arthritis in his hands was getting too painful to continue making this kit.   

Rob tells me that Richard Hartley,  of Hartley Boats,  has taken on the rights,  and is keen to continue the manufacture of the kit;   but there seems to be precious little about it on the Hartley Boats website,  and Richard Hartley has not yet answered my email of a couple of months ago enquiring about a replacement for my now failing Holt Mini-reef.    

So whether Hartleys are or are not intending to manufacture the kit remains to be seen.

Other alternatives include Plastimo,  who have a very well-developed range for yachts,  and I would expect the bottom of their size range to fit our boats  -  but anyone considering purchase would need to check that for themselves;   and Bartels (a German firm,  I think);   and Aero Luff Spars,  who very specifically make kit for dinghies and small trailer-sailers.

There may perhaps be others,  but it is a limited market,  and the number of suppliers is small  -  and has reduced very noticeably with Rob's enforced retirement.


Oliver