Date   
Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

Darius Przezdziecki <derek@...>
 

Tim, there can be no doubt that Russian deployed their armored trains
in direct fire role and not just as a mobile artillery support. Here
is a quote from the article about armoured train "Za Stalina"
published in Polish magazine Militaria (Michal mentions this article
in his post):..." Train was incorporated into 5th Army at the West
Front and on the same day was send on a reconneisance towards
Gzatska. On the 10th of October when news were received about German
offensive (Operation "Taifun" which was aimed capturing Moscov)BP1"Za
Stalina" was send again in the direction of Gzataska against German
tanks. Near the station Kolesniki (174 km west of Moskov)train
unexpectedly met a formation of German tanks (probably from "Panzer
Group Guderian")and on 11th of October was immobilised and lost..."
The article mentions war service of Muromiec and Minin but
unfortunatelly last page of my artice (p70) is missing so maybe
Michal can provide the relevant quotes.

Best wishes Darius P.

Re: Digest Number 665

Schedel <cws@...>
 

There was 1 M1920Mk 1 and 3 M1920Mk 2 built. The Mk 1 and one Mk2 went
to California, the other 2 Mk 2 went to the Pacific end of the Panama
Canal.
Charles Schedel
On Wednesday, December 4, 2002, at 08:16 AM, railwaygun@...
wrote:

The Railwaygun, Armoured train and Military railway museum
www.railwaygun.co.uk
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re:Woozlefinches
From: Ncentric@...
2. Re: Kosma Minin
From: "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...>
3. A new members biography
From: "Nicholas Robinson" <nrobinson@...>
4. Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons
From: "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...>


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:02:59 EST
From: Ncentric@...
Subject: Re:Woozlefinches

Rob pointed out that the "Ft Mac" guns were different from the WWI
"Woozlefinches"-
Yes I know and have had the "Califonia 14's" in my catalog for years
now.
There were only two Mk2 M1920's built and served their lifespan in
Southern
Califonia. They were open mounts,capable of firing from their trucks,
or with
trucks removed, from turntables(the only way they could track a ship
and hit
it). The Navy guns were enclosed mounts, and were made to be parked
over a
pre-built trench(to give space for breech recoil). Both used 14" 50 cal.
rifles, the only thing they both had in common. Rob's right about the
genesis
of the name "Woozlefinch",too.
Andy


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:29:38 -0000
From: "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...>
Subject: Re: Kosma Minin

--- In railwaygun@y..., Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@z...> wrote:
The message <asge1r+lrdm@e...>
from "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@b...> contains these words:

I am working on a semi-scale model of a late war Russian
armoured
train - it will probably be based on the Kosma Minin.
Why not buy one ? It is available commercially in 1/87 from RedStar
Models.

Cheers
Peter

I tried looking for Red Star - there are quite a few hits from Red
Star Models (some of questionable taste) but I soon found Red Star
Railways. I assume this is the organisation you meant but I couldn't
see any 1/87 armoured trains there - mainly Russian freight stuff.
I'm sure that someone does resin models of the Russian armoured
trains but I recall seeing a comment, years ago, on this list that
they were not particularly good quality.
It's quite possible that newer kits are now available but I have a
limited budget and resins seem so expensive compared with scratch
building. I don't cost labour time to my hobbies - I just think
modelling is more productive than TV watching.

In any case I have finished one artillery car (twin T.34 turrets)
and have the major parts of the second cut out ready to assemble.
They glare at me when I open that box up.
What I really need is the make up of Kosma Minin and a photo or two
of those Katyusha wagons. The line drawings in 'Kopenhagen' are
interesting but a photo would make me feel more comfortable about
them.

Tim M





________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:15:19 -0000
From: "Nicholas Robinson" <nrobinson@...>
Subject: A new members biography

-----Original Message-----
From: Giersch Alexandru [mailto:detail0072@...]
Sent: 03 December 2002 23:55
To: nrobinson@...
Subject: railwaygun mail-list


Dear Mr. Robinson,

First of all let me thank You for Your e-mail.

Second, sorry if my english will be not so good.

I wish to become a member of the railwaygun mail-list because :

1. I like very much the trains and I have some trains on 12mm (
1/120 ). Few years ago I did 3 armoured russian wagons on TT wich are
now at the Solent Club.

2. I find very interesting all kind of military trains - very
spectaculary.

3. I'm a producer of 1/72 military resin kits - specially
trains : BR 55, the german heavy wagons on 4 and 6 axles, few models of
russian wagons and other accesories. And I intent to do more.

4. I have done a diorama ( 1000x400 ) with all my railway
models ( who's now in France ).

5. I like to change impressions, experience and talk with
others modellers. And will be a chance to me to improve my english.

6. And, why not, maybe some modellers will be interested on my
models.

I don't know if it's all, but I try to be honest.

Dear Mr. Robinson, waiting for Your answer, please be kind to
accept all my best regards.

Alexandru GIERSCH



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:35:54 -0000
From: "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...>
Subject: Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

I have been trying to find more on the Soviet armoured trains of the
Kosma Minin type.
I found a picture of a train showing two artillery cars in the big
Sowadny book but alas I don't speak German so the text remains mostly
closed to me.
This seems to show the wagons in the three colour (dark green 4BO,
yellow earth 7K, and dark brown 6K) Soviet Amoeba pattern mostly used
in the Northern, Central and Western districts. This was a standard
scheme that was also used on armour but due to rapid attrition most
tanks saw combat in the dark green (4BO) protective coat only – with
white overpainted in various patterns for winter use.
The policy allowed armour used in war of movement to stay in overall
green but where positional warfare was more common tanks are shown in
other camouflage schemes. Trains were regarded as positional warfare
assets and were usually camouflaged. (Camouflage of the tanks of the
Red Army 1930-1945 - Armada 'vertical' no.5).

I had originally assumed the photo in Sowadny showed the wagons
repainted in the German three colour scheme and that they had been
dark green originally but as more photos become available of Soviet
camouflage schemes I have changed my opinion.
One of the small Sowadny books has an illustration of the artillery
car in German service but I have misplaced both my copies:o( I
finished the first artillery wagon in dark green with a worn
overpainting of white but I shall probably change this when I finish
the entire train.


I have yet to see a photo of the Katyusha wagons and I think the lack
of a photo is suspicious – did these really exist? The wording in
Kopenhagen (page 36) is interesting. `According to official
statements by the Soviet trade press several armoured trains were
also armed with rocket launchers – the so called Katyushas or `Stalin
Organs'.' It does sound to me as if the author is unsure himself.

The maximum range of the 76.2mm guns in the T.34 turrets would be
about 14,000 yards.
The maximum range of the 82mm rockets on an M.8 launcher was about
6,000 yards.
How often would a suitable target be within the 6,000 yard range of
the rockets? Since the train is constrained by the tracks and must
also take account of tactical factors I don't understand why time and
effort would be expended on a weapon system of very limited
application.
I imagine the train would have only two launchers so the
contribution towards a bombardment would be very small. The train
launcher drawings in Kopenhagen show rails for 24 rockets per
mounting yet a single lorry would carry rails for 36 or 48 rockets.

The more I think about this the less sense it all makes. I am coming
around to the view that the 'Katyusha wagon' could be a myth.

Tim M



________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________



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Re: response

Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...>
 

The message <20021204221620.23130.qmail@...>
from Giersch Alexandru <detail0072@...> contains these words:

Let present my-self: 46, 1/72 models master-maker and producer also
at MINIATUR MODELS. My range of models name - DETAIL 72. Vehicles,
accesories but most of all military trains - german and russian. I'm
Romanian, live in Bucharest and work in Ploiesti.
Hi

Welcome to the group. You presumably know my friend Stefan Cirstea !
When you see him please tell him I haven't forgotten to find some books
for him! I still need to identify what prototypes he is interested in.
Which sector in Bucuresti?

Cheers

Peter
(who used to spend a lot of time in Bucuresti )

Wargaming and scale modelling

brenzett_wing <timmoore@...>
 

--- In railwaygun@y..., "M. Derela" <derela@p...> wrote:
Why not buy one ? It is available commercially in 1/87 from
RedStar Models.

As far as I know it's quite simplified, though it should do for
wargamer
purposes.

Regards,
Michal Derela
We wargamers are not all primitives when it comes to modelling :O)

True sometimes we 'adjust' history for the sake of an entertaining
game between a group of friends on a Friday night but some of us go
to great lengths to make 'accurate' models.
For example I recently made 6 Sherman flail tanks the hard way from
kits, chain, brass wire and plastic bits since the wargames models
available looked too crude to my eye.
My Pz.28 train that I scratch built for wargaming has working ramps,
Somuas that can de-train and a full complement of infantry in the
open infantry wagons. It even runs on my son's layout!
I tend to build semi-scale for practicality - I'd hate to make up
all those H-beams and I-beams from scratch (I just use the nearest
commercial size) nor would I want to scratch build 1/87 Somuas.

I can see that I'm digging a hole for myself if my Russian train
doesn't turn out too well especially since people have been so kind
with offers of plans. I guess time will tell but people have a right
to see and poke fun at my efforts. Give me a few months....

Tim M

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

brenzett_wing <timmoore@...>
 

--- In railwaygun@y..., "M. Derela" <derela@p...> wrote:
Polish author, J. Magnuski wrote some details about these wagons.
They were built in Moscow NKPS Wagon Factory, and the launchers
were mounted in "Kompressor" factory, which developed them for
light
tanks T-60. There were 5 wagons with M-8 rockets built (BM-8-24
launcher), and 2 with bigger M-13. They were finnished on 15
September 1942 - but since they weren't as succesfull, as they were
supposed to be, the further wagons weren't produced. 4 wagons with
M-
8 were given to Kozma Minin and Ilya Muromets.

Why they were mounted? Well, they were hoped to be better. And they
sure made bigger effect of bombardment, than 76mm guns. The guns
used in these trains were more suitable for direct fire, in fact
(Max
elevation was 29-deg, I think).

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised, if the launchers were
eventually
dismounted from AA wagons. (BTW, AA wagons had 1x25mm and
1x37mm gun each.)

Regards,
Michal Derela
Thanks Michal. I am a bit happier about making the Katyusha wagons
with M.8 launchers now.
The M.13 mountings actually make more sense to me since the 132mm
rocket had a range of about 9000 yards allowing the train to stand-
off further from the intended target. The sketch in Kopenhagen is
probably all we will get to work from for the M.13 version since only
2 were made. I wonder what happened to the M.13 wagons?

The snippet about the different AA weapons is very interesting, what
little I have seen seems to show two 37mm guns. The 25mm was
relatively uncommon but could reach much greater altitude that the
37mm. A twin 25mm version could be mounted on the back of a truck.

Has anyone read good accounts of these trains in action? I am very
sceptical about the direct fire role - great fun for we wargamers but
a train is surely too big and expensive to risk in a firefight.
The train would be very vulnerable to tank or anti-tank guns and
would present an enourmous target. The armour would not save it when
faced with the sorts of weapons routinely deployed on the Russian
Front.
Other armoured trains were primarily equiped with howitzers for
example the German FH.18 in their later trains. I see the 'pursuit'
cars with Panzer IV turrets as a defensive measure just in case the
train were forced into close action before it could disengage.

Sorry the idea that the Russian train was built for direct fire
actions just doesn't sit with my personal picture of their use. I
could be wrong though. What we really need is a breakdown of the
actions fought to see how these monsters influenced the battle.

Improbable as it seems such data may be available somewhere. My
family has a diary kept, against regulations, by my grandfather who
was in the horse artillery throughout WW1. There are records of
rounds fired at different targets, the famous rationing of shells and
even a record of the battery firing at an 'aeroplane' that turned out
to be a bird!

Tim M

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

M. Derela <derela@...>
 

I have been trying to find more on the Soviet armoured trains of the
Kosma Minin type.
I found a picture of a train showing two artillery cars in the big
Sowadny book but alas I don't speak German so the text remains mostly
closed to me.
This seems to show the wagons in the three colour (dark green 4BO,
yellow earth 7K, and dark brown 6K) Soviet Amoeba pattern mostly used
in the Northern, Central and Western districts. This was a standard
scheme that was also used on armour but due to rapid attrition most
tanks saw combat in the dark green (4BO) protective coat only � with
white overpainted in various patterns for winter use.
The policy allowed armour used in war of movement to stay in overall
green but where positional warfare was more common tanks are shown in
other camouflage schemes. Trains were regarded as positional warfare
assets and were usually camouflaged. (Camouflage of the tanks of the
Red Army 1930-1945 - Armada 'vertical' no.5).
The locomotive of "Za Stalina", the first train of this type, was painted in
a very fancy 3-color camouflage - but note, that it wasn't common O
type locomotive.

I have yet to see a photo of the Katyusha wagons and I think the lack
of a photo is suspicious � did these really exist?
The maximum range of the 76.2mm guns in the T.34 turrets would be
about 14,000 yards.
The maximum range of the 82mm rockets on an M.8 launcher was about
6,000 yards.
How often would a suitable target be within the 6,000 yard range of
the rockets? Since the train is constrained by the tracks and must
also take account of tactical factors I don't understand why time and
effort would be expended on a weapon system of very limited
application.
I imagine the train would have only two launchers so the
contribution towards a bombardment would be very small. The train
launcher drawings in Kopenhagen show rails for 24 rockets per
mounting yet a single lorry would carry rails for 36 or 48 rockets.

The more I think about this the less sense it all makes. I am coming
around to the view that the 'Katyusha wagon' could be a myth.
Polish author, J. Magnuski wrote some details about these wagons.
They were built in Moscow NKPS Wagon Factory, and the launchers
were mounted in "Kompressor" factory, which developed them for light
tanks T-60. There were 5 wagons with M-8 rockets built (BM-8-24
launcher), and 2 with bigger M-13. They were finnished on 15
September 1942 - but since they weren't as succesfull, as they were
supposed to be, the further wagons weren't produced. 4 wagons with M-
8 were given to Kozma Minin and Ilya Muromets.

Why they were mounted? Well, they were hoped to be better. And they
sure made bigger effect of bombardment, than 76mm guns. The guns
used in these trains were more suitable for direct fire, in fact (Max
elevation was 29-deg, I think).

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised, if the launchers were eventually
dismounted from AA wagons. (BTW, AA wagons had 1x25mm and
1x37mm gun each.)

Regards,
Michal Derela

*************
PIBWL Polish armoured trains:
http://derela.republika.pl/armtrain.htm

Steel Panthers site
http://republika.pl/derela/steel1.htm

derela@...
derela@...

Re: Kosma minin

M. Derela <derela@...>
 

From: "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...>
Subject: Kosma Minin


I am working on a semi-scale model of a late war Russian armoured
train - it will probably be based on the Kosma Minin.
The book 'Armoured Trains of the Soviet Union' by Kopenhagen was the
inspiration for this model.
Where can I find more information about this train?

I really need some reasonable scale drawings - anything from 1/87 to
1/72 would be fine. The model will be used for wargaming so exact
scale will not be essential and compromises will be made to speed up
building, but we do like to have models that 'look right'. The model
will also run on my sons railway layout and by luck some of our
rolling stock has the correct length (I think) and can pass for our
purposes.

I have scanned Polish article on the trains of "Za Stalina" type,
including "Kozma Minin". It has a page of drawings and some photos -
I can send it to you (or anyone else).

The Katyusha launchers are particularly interesting, two types are
show in the book, but I'm not convinced by the armoured wagons on
which they are mounted. The mountings look difficult to serve.
I assume that only 2 Katyushas were mounted on the train but this
would seem to be inadequate for the area bombardment role in which
this weapon was used. Films usually show a number of lorry mounted
Katyushas firing simultaneously. Thoughts anyone?
It had two 4-wheel wagons with one Katyusha and two 37mm AA guns
each.

Why not buy one ? It is available commercially in 1/87 from RedStar Models.
As far as I know it's quite simplified, though it should do for wargamer
purposes.

Regards,
Michal Derela

*************
PIBWL Polish armoured trains:
http://derela.republika.pl/armtrain.htm

Steel Panthers site
http://republika.pl/derela/steel1.htm

derela@...
derela@...

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

brenzett_wing <timmoore@...>
 

I would like to thank those people who have mailed me off list with
offers of plans - this really is an exceptional group.


--- In railwaygun@y..., "Jens O. Mehner" <jensomehner@o...> wrote:
Tim,

while the range of the 76.2mms in the T34 turrets may have been
theoretically 14,400 yards, this is the same as saying the AK47 has a
range of 8,000 yards- while you might accidentally hit somebody,
there is no chance of effective fire unless we're talking field
artillery with forward observers or spotted range tables here. 14,400
yards translates into about 9 miles, even Superman would have a hard
time spotting a possibly small target from a moving train at that
range.

Also, bear in mind that those 76.2mms are originally tank guns,
giving them an effective range of up to 1,500 yds with AP ammunition
and about 3,000 with HE- their trajectory is much flatter than that
of a field gun.
The point about observed fire is well made but I had assumed the
trains were used as mobile artillery batteries and that provision had
been made for forward observation. My interpretation of the role was
that the train would be static and used in the indirect fire mode. I
can't imagine anyone trying to observe and fire from a moving train.

The 76.2mm model 38 was mounted on a field carriage, as an
expediency, and used as a normal field piece. The maximum range is a
factor of how high the mounting can elevate. I would have expected
more elevation to be provided for the artillery role.
I can't imagine that anti-tank action was any part of the plan - a
train would be just too vulnerable to tanks.


Regarding the Katyushas, the verdict is still open on those,
although I can well imagine them having been used, if only for
psychological effect, which could be devastating, accoring to
witnesses' reports. Smaller launchers than 36 rails did exist and are
shown on a riverboat mounting in the Kopenhagen volume. A riverboat
is an even less stable firing platform than an armored train, yet
they used them...

Just my 2 Eurocents

Jens O.
The psycological effect of Katyushas was considerable as you say but
they are inherently inaccurate and take a long time to reload
compared with guns. They were effective used en-mass but two small
mountings just wouldn't give sufficient weight of fire - in my
opinion. I don't think they would be an effective close-in weapon
being just too difficult to aim and slow to reload. Heavy machine
guns would be easier and I think more effective.

The armoured riverboats did sometimes carry a small Katyusha
mounting aft. I assumed they were used in the same way that the
Allies used rocket firing landing craft - to lay down a barrage prior
to an assault landing (than could also mean smoke rather than high
explosives). Riverboats are much quicker than trains and are less
predictable so present a more difficult target. I imagine it was
possible to get quite a number of these boats together for assault
landings so providing a proper barrage of rockets.

The linking of the Katyusha with armoured trains just seems a bit
too propaganda like for me to take on trust. Katyushas had a fearsome
reputation during WW2 linking them with an armoured train just sounds
awesome - but why don't we have any pictures yet?

Sorry guys I'm just a sceptic who is looking for proof. I didn't set
out to be that way all I wanted was some pics to model from....

Tim M

response

Giersch Alexandru <detail0072@...>
 

Dear Railwaygunners,

Thank you for accepting me.

Let present my-self: 46, 1/72 models master-maker and producer also at MINIATUR MODELS. My range of models name - DETAIL 72. Vehicles, accesories but most of all military trains - german and russian. I'm Romanian, live in Bucharest and work in Ploiesti. Still maried.

Of-course I have some pictures of my models and of a large diorama,but they are classic pictures. I'll ask someone to help with me with a digital camera and send you photos to make an ideea.

I've seen few pictures of some models - very interesting. I know how hard is to build a good model - especially on N gauge !

One question - there is someone interested in 1/72 military rail models ?

For the moment I think is enough. Sorry if my written english will scratch your eyes .

I'll be glad to response to yours questions.

My best regards to you all !

Alexandru



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now

Re: A new members biography

PhlGils@...
 

It sounds as though this applicant will be a definte asset to the group. Does he have pictures of his models that can be posted to the site? Phil, Bklyn.

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

Jens O. Mehner
 

Tim,

while the range of the 76.2mms in the T34 turrets may have been theoretically 14,400 yards, this is the same as saying the AK47 has a range of 8,000 yards- while you might accidentally hit somebody, there is no chance of effective fire unless we're talking field artillery with forward observers or spotted range tables here. 14,400 yards translates into about 9 miles, even Superman would have a hard time spotting a possibly small target from a moving train at that range.

Also, bear in mind that those 76.2mms are originally tank guns, giving them an effective range of up to 1,500 yds with AP ammunition and about 3,000 with HE- their trajectory is much flatter than that of a field gun.

Regarding the Katyushas, the verdict is still open on those, although I can well imagine them having been used, if only for psychological effect, which could be devastating, accoring to witnesses' reports. Smaller launchers than 36 rails did exist and are shown on a riverboat mounting in the Kopenhagen volume. A riverboat is an even less stable firing platform than an armored train, yet they used them...

Just my 2 Eurocents

Jens O.

Katyusha on Rails (Re: Digest Number 665)

davep <davep@...>
 

I have yet to see a photo of the Katyusha wagons and I think the lack of a photo is suspicious - did these really exist? The wording in Kopenhagen (page 36) is interesting. `According to official statements by the Soviet trade press several armoured trains were also armed with rocket launchers - the so called Katyushas or `Stalin Organs'.' It does sound to me as if the author is unsure himself.

The maximum range of the 76.2mm guns in the T.34 turrets would be about 14,000 yards.

The maximum range of the 82mm rockets on an M.8 launcher was about 6,000 yards.

How often would a suitable target be within the 6,000 yard range of the rockets?
An alternate question might be:
How much is it worth to defend the train against a
tactical oooooops?

Since the train is constrained by the tracks and must also take account of tactical factors I don't understand
why time and effort
Rocket systems, by comparison, are generally
considered cheaper than artillery (comparing
Katyusha style rockets), aand capable of high
volumes of fire against an opponent who slipped
up on a train 'constrained by the tracks'.

would be expended on a weapon system of very limited application.
If the application be important enough....
Last Ditch defense against intruders.

I imagine the train would have only two launchers so the contribution towards a bombardment would be very small.
Perhaps the mission was other than bombardment.

The train launcher drawings in Kopenhagen show rails for
24 rockets per mounting yet a single lorry would carry
rails for 36 or 48 rockets.
The more I think about this the less sense it all makes.
I am coming around to the view that the 'Katyusha wagon'
could be a myth.
We may never _know_. Has anyone asked/checked
the Soviet vets?

--
best
dwp

...the net of a million lies...
Vernor Vinge
There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things.
-me

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

Darius Przezdziecki <derek@...>
 

Tim, according to the drawings of Kozma Minin published in Modelist
Konstructor the flak cars of this train did indeed have 12 rail M-8
Katiusha launcher mounted beteen 37mm AA guns positions. According to
a rough artist sketch of the train included in the article, at some
time in it's service, it consisted of two flat cars, artillery car,
armoured loco, artillery car, two AA cars and finaly two flat cars.
How accurate this depiction actually is I have no idea.

Regards Darius

Re: Kosma Minin colour schemes and Katyusha wagons

brenzett_wing <timmoore@...>
 

I have been trying to find more on the Soviet armoured trains of the
Kosma Minin type.
I found a picture of a train showing two artillery cars in the big
Sowadny book but alas I don't speak German so the text remains mostly
closed to me.
This seems to show the wagons in the three colour (dark green 4BO,
yellow earth 7K, and dark brown 6K) Soviet Amoeba pattern mostly used
in the Northern, Central and Western districts. This was a standard
scheme that was also used on armour but due to rapid attrition most
tanks saw combat in the dark green (4BO) protective coat only – with
white overpainted in various patterns for winter use.
The policy allowed armour used in war of movement to stay in overall
green but where positional warfare was more common tanks are shown in
other camouflage schemes. Trains were regarded as positional warfare
assets and were usually camouflaged. (Camouflage of the tanks of the
Red Army 1930-1945 - Armada 'vertical' no.5).

I had originally assumed the photo in Sowadny showed the wagons
repainted in the German three colour scheme and that they had been
dark green originally but as more photos become available of Soviet
camouflage schemes I have changed my opinion.
One of the small Sowadny books has an illustration of the artillery
car in German service but I have misplaced both my copies:o( I
finished the first artillery wagon in dark green with a worn
overpainting of white but I shall probably change this when I finish
the entire train.


I have yet to see a photo of the Katyusha wagons and I think the lack
of a photo is suspicious – did these really exist? The wording in
Kopenhagen (page 36) is interesting. `According to official
statements by the Soviet trade press several armoured trains were
also armed with rocket launchers – the so called Katyushas or `Stalin
Organs'.' It does sound to me as if the author is unsure himself.

The maximum range of the 76.2mm guns in the T.34 turrets would be
about 14,000 yards.
The maximum range of the 82mm rockets on an M.8 launcher was about
6,000 yards.
How often would a suitable target be within the 6,000 yard range of
the rockets? Since the train is constrained by the tracks and must
also take account of tactical factors I don't understand why time and
effort would be expended on a weapon system of very limited
application.
I imagine the train would have only two launchers so the
contribution towards a bombardment would be very small. The train
launcher drawings in Kopenhagen show rails for 24 rockets per
mounting yet a single lorry would carry rails for 36 or 48 rockets.

The more I think about this the less sense it all makes. I am coming
around to the view that the 'Katyusha wagon' could be a myth.

Tim M

A new members biography

nr_groups
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Giersch Alexandru [mailto:detail0072@...]
Sent: 03 December 2002 23:55
To: nrobinson@...
Subject: railwaygun mail-list


Dear Mr. Robinson,

First of all let me thank You for Your e-mail.

Second, sorry if my english will be not so good.

I wish to become a member of the railwaygun mail-list because :

1. I like very much the trains and I have some trains on 12mm (
1/120 ). Few years ago I did 3 armoured russian wagons on TT wich are
now at the Solent Club.

2. I find very interesting all kind of military trains - very
spectaculary.

3. I'm a producer of 1/72 military resin kits - specially
trains : BR 55, the german heavy wagons on 4 and 6 axles, few models of
russian wagons and other accesories. And I intent to do more.

4. I have done a diorama ( 1000x400 ) with all my railway
models ( who's now in France ).

5. I like to change impressions, experience and talk with
others modellers. And will be a chance to me to improve my english.

6. And, why not, maybe some modellers will be interested on my
models.

I don't know if it's all, but I try to be honest.

Dear Mr. Robinson, waiting for Your answer, please be kind to
accept all my best regards.

Alexandru GIERSCH

Re: Kosma Minin

brenzett_wing <timmoore@...>
 

--- In railwaygun@y..., Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@z...> wrote:
The message <asge1r+lrdm@e...>
from "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@b...> contains these words:

I am working on a semi-scale model of a late war Russian
armoured
train - it will probably be based on the Kosma Minin.
Why not buy one ? It is available commercially in 1/87 from RedStar
Models.

Cheers
Peter

I tried looking for Red Star - there are quite a few hits from Red
Star Models (some of questionable taste) but I soon found Red Star
Railways. I assume this is the organisation you meant but I couldn't
see any 1/87 armoured trains there - mainly Russian freight stuff.
I'm sure that someone does resin models of the Russian armoured
trains but I recall seeing a comment, years ago, on this list that
they were not particularly good quality.
It's quite possible that newer kits are now available but I have a
limited budget and resins seem so expensive compared with scratch
building. I don't cost labour time to my hobbies - I just think
modelling is more productive than TV watching.

In any case I have finished one artillery car (twin T.34 turrets)
and have the major parts of the second cut out ready to assemble.
They glare at me when I open that box up.
What I really need is the make up of Kosma Minin and a photo or two
of those Katyusha wagons. The line drawings in 'Kopenhagen' are
interesting but a photo would make me feel more comfortable about
them.

Tim M

Re: Woozlefinches

Ncentric@...
 

Rob pointed out that the "Ft Mac" guns were different from the WWI
"Woozlefinches"-
Yes I know and have had the "Califonia 14's" in my catalog for years now.
There were only two Mk2 M1920's built and served their lifespan in Southern
Califonia. They were open mounts,capable of firing from their trucks, or with
trucks removed, from turntables(the only way they could track a ship and hit
it). The Navy guns were enclosed mounts, and were made to be parked over a
pre-built trench(to give space for breech recoil). Both used 14" 50 cal.
rifles, the only thing they both had in common. Rob's right about the genesis
of the name "Woozlefinch",too.
Andy

Re: Kosma Minin

Peter Ellis <peter.ellis@...>
 

The message <asge1r+lrdm@...>
from "brenzett_wing" <timmoore@...> contains these words:

I am working on a semi-scale model of a late war Russian armoured
train - it will probably be based on the Kosma Minin.
The book 'Armoured Trains of the Soviet Union' by Kopenhagen was the
inspiration for this model.
Where can I find more information about this train?
I really need some reasonable scale drawings - anything from 1/87 to
1/72 would be fine. The model will be used for wargaming so exact
scale will not be essential and compromises will be made to speed up
building, but we do like to have models that 'look right'. The model
will also run on my sons railway layout and by luck some of our
rolling stock has the correct length (I think) and can pass for our
purposes.
Why not buy one ? It is available commercially in 1/87 from RedStar Models.

Cheers

Peter

Re: New N-Centricity-"Woozlefinch"

Robert E. Duchesneau
 

Congratulations on realizing what I'm sure is a fine product. Dumb
question. I suppose you know that the guns at Ft. Macarthur were completely
different from the US Navy WW1 guns?

The gun on display at the Washington Navy Yard still has the spoked wheels.

I suspect the "Woozlefinch" nickname dates from 1919, when the Army's Coast
Artillery Corps took over the guns from the Navy (and repainted them "U. S.
A."). The "Oozlefinch" is the mythical bird-like mascot of the Coast
Artillery Corps.

-Rob Duchesneau
rob.du@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Ncentric@... [mailto:Ncentric@...]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 2:13 PM
To: railwaygun@...
Subject: [railwaygun] New N-Centricity-"Woozlefinch"


Greetings and a happy holiday season to all. I will be sending the good
doctor some pics, since AOL has some nasty firewalls that seem to interfere
with mailing photos to the group. I just finished the castings on the US
Navy
50 cal 14 inch guns that were shipped to France in WWI. These were nicknamed
"Woozlefinches" and should complement my Paris gun and French M74 models.
This will be my first kit offered-only six pieces to assemble, and will
require two sets of Micro Trains three axle "commonwealth" trucks, to be
bought seperately. I suggest Minfigs British artillery crews to man it. The
only modifying needed will be cutting the couplers off two of the four
trucks("bogies" to my Euro-friends). The original US design called for
outside-braced trucks with normal US-style journal boxes-what had kept me
from producing this was that the only pics I had were of the guns with
European-type spoked wheels. New reference sources from Fort MacArthur, here
in Los Angeles,freed me from that requirement.
Best to all!
Andy Bradshaw

The Railwaygun, Armoured train and Military railway museum
www.railwaygun.co.uk

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Re: V2 rocket firing trains

marcel
 

Hi Tim,

I have been studying this subject for quite some time and so far the facts
are that no v2-trains were
used operational. Only at Peenemuende three rocket-launching waggons were
tested, but never put in to service.

But you never know.....

There were a lot of V2 rocket supply trains travelling through the
Netherrlands during late war years.
Possibly these were the subject of the text you have red.

regards,

Marcel

brenzett_wing wrote:

I have happened upon an interesting snippet while reading a book on
the Hawker Tempest fighter. (Hawker Tempest and Sea Fury by Robert
Jackson Blandford Press 1989)

'Orders were given for attacks on rocket-firing trains, believed to
be operating on the railway connecting Zwolle, Apeldoorn, Deventer
and Amersfoort, and several attacks were made on vehicle parks
beleived to contain rocket equipment.'

Up to now I had been convinced that the train launched V2 was only a
prototype but the report above does provide an interesting starting
point. Perhaps the prototype was deployed operationally or perhaps a
small production run was made.

Tim M


The Railwaygun, Armoured train and Military railway museum
www.railwaygun.co.uk

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