Date   

Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

steenbn
 

Good pictures. It looks to me like the joint between the cabin and the deck was not faired with bondo. Maybe the teak deck crew got to the boat before the bondo crew had time to finish up. If the heavy glass layup on the inside is intact, then you just have a water tightness issue. I would clean out the cavity and fill it with thickened epoxy. Then find a good quality flexible epoxy and run a nice 1/4 round beat all the way around the cabin joint.

I'm curious if those screws you show hold the teak rail along the bottom inside of the cabin sides in place. It hard to see what else the could hold in place.


Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

peterhartman1
 

Here are some better close up pictures.


Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

peterhartman1
 

Here is a small representative sample of what I am finding. The gaps in the cabin to deck joint are inconsistent. There are other small areas that look like there has been repairs. There are definitely different colored substances around the cabin top joint in different areas as well as different fasteners. I have not noticed any soft spots in the deck or cabin top and luckily none of the deck screw holes removed have any signs of moisture. I am drilling these out and filling with epoxy. I will get more pictures of the cabin top screws a little later.

Image.jpeg
Image.jpeg
Image.jpeg


Re: Genoa track KP44

Neale McLennan
 

Thanks Pete, I will replace all the track and try the car posistions and mark the reef points. Great tips. Just got to get all the work done on new track, have a few days work ahead of me, then i will start on port side.
Cheers
Neale.


Sent from my Samsung Mobile on the Telstra Mobile Network


Re: Genoa track KP44

Pete Carrico
 

When reefing your furling Genoa do you move the Genoa lead car forward on the track?
When correctly sheeted on any sail the sheet should point to the middle of the headstay.
Do you have vertical marks on the foot of your genoa indicating 1st, 2nd and 3rd reef points?
This is do you can match the headsail leech position on the rail, going forward for upwind sailing to a known location.
Also for reaching, to reduce twist and have the tell tales break evenly you bring the lead car further forward than the upwind car lead position.
I would install the track as designed and not devalue the boat in my humble opinion.
Pete Carrico


Re: Genoa track KP44

Jeff Stander
 

Hi Neale,

 

One suggestion is a barber hauler for your genoa sheet.

We use that track forward for a sliding standup block that accommodates the after-guy for the spinnaker pole (see Running Rigging on Beatrix)

Since we have a 120% genoa we also make use of the track for adjusting the sheet angle. 

I expect your big genoa would not use the forward part of the track but in case you buy a smaller sail in the future I would leave it in.

 

There are some other opinions out there, but I use the full track.  I have two genoa cars, a sliding horn cleat, the standup block for the afterguy, and a couple of sliding padeyes on each track. 

 

Cheers


Jeff

 

From: petersoncuttter@groups.io [mailto:petersoncuttter@groups.io] On Behalf Of Neale McLennan
Sent: Wednesday, 29 July 2020 10:55 AM
To: petersoncuttter@groups.io
Subject: [petersoncuttter] Genoa track KP44

 

Hi all,
 I have just removed my Genoa track on starboard side, need to replace track, have seen the trackless system but think I will replace track.
Question is does the track need to be so long, since I have had my KP44 I have not been able to use the forward part of track { not even halfway up track } so I'm asking people who have more experience, do I need to replace track with same 3.7 meter/12 foot track, would half that length be adequate?
My Genoa is very big, it sheets in great when all the way out and car right aft on track, the problem is when furled in I cant get it sheeted well for windward sailing.
Neale,
Talanoa
Petterson 44 #267


Genoa track KP44

Neale McLennan
 

Hi all,
 I have just removed my Genoa track on starboard side, need to replace track, have seen the trackless system but think I will replace track.
Question is does the track need to be so long, since I have had my KP44 I have not been able to use the forward part of track { not even halfway up track } so I'm asking people who have more experience, do I need to replace track with same 3.7 meter/12 foot track, would half that length be adequate?
My Genoa is very big, it sheets in great when all the way out and car right aft on track, the problem is when furled in I cant get it sheeted well for windward sailing.
Neale,
Talanoa
Petterson 44 #267


Re: Person Hull Lists

Jim & Kitty Frazier
 

Hey Jason:

I just joined this group earlier this summer and have an addition for your Formosa 46 list.

Hull number FBB00827 was finished in October of 1978 and initially owned by Biaird Bardarson of Seattle, Washington and was christened SV Bright Star. Her US Federal Registration # is 594357 (and this number was in-molded into inner-hull skin at FBB). Biaird sailed her extensively with his family between Seattle and Alaska each summer season from 1979 and 2007. 

In August of 2009 with Biaird's passing, Bright Star was given to Biard's daughter Lisa Bradarson and son-in law Jon Reichlin of Narberth, PA and she was trucked from Seattle, WA to Annapolis, MD. Jon and Lisa extensively restored her from 2009 through 2017 as she resided and sailed out of Annapolis. In early July of 2018, Jon passed Bright Star along to my wife and I and we had her trucked to Charlotte, Vermont, (near our home) where she resides and sails today on Lake Champlain. Our hope to continue Jon and Lisa's extensive and comprehensive restoration of Bright Star over the next few years and return her to ocean sailing in warmer waters by May of 2023.  

 Hope this information helps you to complete one more small step in your journey of accounting for these amazing vessels.

Sincerely,
Jim Frazier

SV Bright Star


On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 4:23 AM Adrien DEL PIA - KP44 Feti'a Nui <adriendelpia@...> wrote:
Hi Jason,

Such a great job.. .I was actually dreaming of this list to help me find out my Hull Number, and you did it !!
I think I’m getting close to it now.

I’ve grinned the number one day at the shipyard before hull painting, so no chance to see it again.
Among the old papers I have, there is a USCG certificate showing my « OFFICIAL NUMBER »: 641953…
I don’t know what to do with it.
And then, I have an old survey where the expert wrote down the S/N, but certainly made a mistake:

JKY44 2332 0381

I think JKY44 is good, for sure.
I’d like to think 0381 is also good.

But these  2332 could be;
232 - no it is spirit of Ago
233 - no it is - Loose pointer
332 - not possible ?
Or….292 ??? Maybe the expert saw two 3 instead of one 9… the date 0381 seems to fit...

How can I be sure ?

If you want to update my line;

Feti’a Nui, Adrien DEL PIA / French Polynesia / former name = Ro'o

Thanks a lot for your job !


Le 11 juillet 2020 à 12:03:08, S/V DON'T PANiC (theboat@...) a écrit:

[Edited Message Follows]

I finally got the Formosa 46 list completed enough to publish.

Here are lists of our boats:


Always looking for input. Hope this helps for some of us that like to know the history of our boats.
--
Jason
KP46 DON'T PANiC
www.svdontpanic.com


Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

Matthew Emerick
 

Peter: welcome to group and I would like to see pictures to get a better understanding of the problem.
Thanks
Matt 
S/v Quintana Ro F46


On Jul 28, 2020, at 4:36 PM, steenbn <steen@...> wrote:

Peter,
I have owned a couple of Taiwanese boats over the years, and I love them. The teak work is without par, and some of the best 70's and 80's designers used these far east yards to have their boats build. This is also true for all the versions of the Kelly Peterson 44. The only problem is that these yards, and workers, had very little idea how to build a boat and what forces a boat at sea it subject to. Jack Kelly had a staff in the Taiwan yard when the boats were being build, not to insure the quality of the work, but to be able to make a detailed list of things that needed to be replaced/repaired once each boat was unloaded in San Diego.
Just last summer i came to the realization that my Formosa 46 is build out of three pieces, hull, deck, house. see post 'How is a Formosa 46 build' Typically you build a glass boat out of two molds, the hull and the deck. The hull/deck joint needs to be incredibly strong as it keeps the hull from collapsing as a wet shoe box without a lid. On top of that you have the load from the rigging working very hard on deforming that mid-ship hull. There are tremendous lateral forces but on the deck structure on a sailboat. Yes there are 1/2" marine ply bulkheads helping the hull stay in its intended shape, but none of them are the full width of the hull. 
I would be very worried if I had cracks, beyond paint/bondo cracks, along the cabin/deck 'joint'. The cabin and deck is glassed together on the inside with a heavy, but 'cold' polyester joint. Polyester does not stick well to cured, or cold, polyester. Epoxy does a much better job, but i doubt that is what was used. If it was me, i would open up the inside of the cabin sides and take a good look at the glazing and tap it to detect any de-lamination. If any part of the joint looks compromised, i would cut it out and glass a new joint using epoxy resin.  


Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

steenbn
 

Peter,
I have owned a couple of Taiwanese boats over the years, and I love them. The teak work is without par, and some of the best 70's and 80's designers used these far east yards to have their boats build. This is also true for all the versions of the Kelly Peterson 44. The only problem is that these yards, and workers, had very little idea how to build a boat and what forces a boat at sea it subject to. Jack Kelly had a staff in the Taiwan yard when the boats were being build, not to insure the quality of the work, but to be able to make a detailed list of things that needed to be replaced/repaired once each boat was unloaded in San Diego.
Just last summer i came to the realization that my Formosa 46 is build out of three pieces, hull, deck, house. see post 'How is a Formosa 46 build' Typically you build a glass boat out of two molds, the hull and the deck. The hull/deck joint needs to be incredibly strong as it keeps the hull from collapsing as a wet shoe box without a lid. On top of that you have the load from the rigging working very hard on deforming that mid-ship hull. There are tremendous lateral forces but on the deck structure on a sailboat. Yes there are 1/2" marine ply bulkheads helping the hull stay in its intended shape, but none of them are the full width of the hull. 
I would be very worried if I had cracks, beyond paint/bondo cracks, along the cabin/deck 'joint'. The cabin and deck is glassed together on the inside with a heavy, but 'cold' polyester joint. Polyester does not stick well to cured, or cold, polyester. Epoxy does a much better job, but i doubt that is what was used. If it was me, i would open up the inside of the cabin sides and take a good look at the glazing and tap it to detect any de-lamination. If any part of the joint looks compromised, i would cut it out and glass a new joint using epoxy resin.  


Re: Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

William Bray
 

Hi Peter,

Welcome.   I'm still a non-owner so will bow to the greater direct knowledge in the group for practical advice,  but just as a little anecdote from my own experience:

About two years ago I nearly put an offer in on an F46 that came up near me.  In the event I passed because..  small children..   it would have been a massive commitment,  but the reason it was such a good price was that it had a "spongy deck".   When I delved into the history a bit I discovered that like yours it was bought by the previous owner with original teak deck and he had just filled the holes and faired / painted the deck.    I guess after that he must have realised there were delamination problems inside the deck and rather than cut it all up he just put it back up for sale and got rid.

I think the moral of the story is,  if you are going to pull up the teak (and you probably should if it is that old/original),  then make sure you check that the core doesn't need any work before you fill the holes.  You'll be gutted if you get it all fixed and looking nice..  then discover a few years later that there was damp in it and whole patches need to be torn out and done again from scratch.

Good luck..  and as you say,  I'm sure you will get great/helpful advice from the rest of the group..


William


From: petersoncuttter@groups.io <petersoncuttter@groups.io> on behalf of peterhartman1 <8984909@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 8:22:00 PM
To: petersoncuttter@groups.io <petersoncuttter@groups.io>
Subject: [petersoncuttter] Cabin top to deck joint #cabin
 
Hello all my name is Peter and I have been reading the forum threads for awhile. I am the new owner of the 1977 Formosa 46 Lookfar, thank you Rod and Jill! maybe Jeff can remove it from the for sale list? Going through this process was very difficult with the current global situation, but Rod and Jill helped to make this happen as smoothly as anyone could dream. I am now in Aruba doing some boat work in exotic places and was wondering if the forum could comment. During a recent Caribbean crazy storm, I found 9 leaks all coming from roughly the same area, because water runs downhill. Rod and his son both mentioned that the cabin top to deck joint could probably benefit from a look, the teak deck is original and has been sanded a lot and never removed. So down the rabbit hole I went...there are large gaps along the cabin top to deck joint and screws through the cabin top presumably fastening the cabin top to the deck. My question to the panel of infinite wisdom is, can I fill the gap with thickened epoxy, remove the cabin top screws and glass the joint?
I can add pictures if anyone is interested.

Thank you for being an awesome resource. I think this forum is one of the main reasons I pursued this boat. I hope to contribute to the pool of knowledge here.
Thank you
Peter
SV Lookfar 
1977 Formosa 46


New Chat: Cabin top to deck joint #chat-notice

petersoncuttter@groups.io Notification <petersoncuttter@...>
 

A new chat has been created:

New

Hello all my name is Peter and I have been reading the forum threads for awhile. I am the new owner of the 1977 Formosa 46 Lookfar, thank you Rod and Jill! maybe Jeff can remove it from the for sale list? Going through this process was very difficult with the current global situation, but Rod and Jill helped to make this happen as smoothly as anyone could dream. I am now in Aruba doing some boat work in exotic places and was wondering if the forum could comment. During a recent Caribbean crazy storm, I found 9 leaks all coming from roughly the same area, because water runs downhill. Rod and his son both mentioned that the cabin top to deck joint could probably benefit from a look, the teak deck is original and has been sanded a lot and never removed. So down the rabbit hole I went...there are large gaps along the cabin top to deck joint and screws through the cabin top presumably fastening the cabin top to the deck. My question to the panel of infinite wisdom is, can I fill the gap with thickened epoxy, remove the cabin top screws and glass the joint?

I can add pictures if anyone is interested.

Thank you for being an awesome resource. I think this forum is one of the main reasons I pursued this boat. I hope to contribute to the pool of knowledge here.
Thank you
Peter
SV Lookfar 
1977 Formosa 46

By: peterhartman1 <8984909@...>

View/Join This Chat

Do not reply to this message to post to the chat. You can participate in chats only through the group's website.


Cabin top to deck joint #cabin

peterhartman1
 

Hello all my name is Peter and I have been reading the forum threads for awhile. I am the new owner of the 1977 Formosa 46 Lookfar, thank you Rod and Jill! maybe Jeff can remove it from the for sale list? Going through this process was very difficult with the current global situation, but Rod and Jill helped to make this happen as smoothly as anyone could dream. I am now in Aruba doing some boat work in exotic places and was wondering if the forum could comment. During a recent Caribbean crazy storm, I found 9 leaks all coming from roughly the same area, because water runs downhill. Rod and his son both mentioned that the cabin top to deck joint could probably benefit from a look, the teak deck is original and has been sanded a lot and never removed. So down the rabbit hole I went...there are large gaps along the cabin top to deck joint and screws through the cabin top presumably fastening the cabin top to the deck. My question to the panel of infinite wisdom is, can I fill the gap with thickened epoxy, remove the cabin top screws and glass the joint?
I can add pictures if anyone is interested.

Thank you for being an awesome resource. I think this forum is one of the main reasons I pursued this boat. I hope to contribute to the pool of knowledge here.
Thank you
Peter
SV Lookfar 
1977 Formosa 46


Re: KP46 boom length

S/V DON'T PANiC
 

Here are the measurements on mine, as accurate as I could, but I wouldn't engineer anything to them.

--
Jason
KP46 DON'T PANiC
www.svdontpanic.com


Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

Dr Brian Gray
 

Greg
I agree with Dean. Looks like a seriously nice boat
Brian


Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

Richard Chesher
 

Hi Brian,

The glass backing on the wood trim looks great! Thanks for the idea.

Richard Chesher



Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

dkwallis2004
 

And Brian - your fix looks bloody good to me!  Great stuff.
--
Dean
Weta KP44 #154


Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

dkwallis2004
 

Wow Greg she actually looks pretty good in the photos, someone has spent a bit of time and money!
--
Dean
Weta KP44 #154


Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

greg wala
 

Thank you to all that have contributed to this thread, especially Brian, I should know next week which way I’m going to go. Some of the photos from the boat attached.

 

Cheers

Greg

 

From: petersoncuttter@groups.io <petersoncuttter@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dr Brian Gray
Sent: Wednesday, 22 July 2020 4:01 PM
To: petersoncuttter@groups.io
Subject: Re: [petersoncuttter] Dry rot fix for KP44

 

1. It is important to check where the leak was and how the owner fixed it. The stainless tanks usually leak along a welded seam. As others have pointed out previously the quality of the welding seems to be the problem and not the steel itself. Some fix leaks by putting a patch on the outside of the tank. This doesn't seem to work on a permanent basis. They must be sealed from the inside. If you explore previous postings you will find people have come up with a wide variety of solutions for the problem. I have attached a series of photos to show you what I did (opps! I forgot to download them - I'll send a different post with them in).  You are lucky to have access in Sydney to an engineering company called CD Diesel. They will fix your whole problem if you are willing to pay for it. Alternatively they make a series of tank access ports ($250 approx) . The great thing about the ports they make is that you can use them safely on the sides (not only on the top). This means you may be able to avoid having to cut a hole to put another hatch in the floor over the tank. What you need to do is dependent on where the leak is so it is good to know its location. My hole was localised so it was easy to fix using food safe two part steel epoxy that you buy in a tube and knead together before using. The guy who runs the company is very helpful and tolerant of the ignorant and he talked me through in detail how to fit mine.
2. The rudder leak problem is likely not  an issue and it probably only needs repacking the seal. If others have comments please make them!
Have a good look at the rudder itself when the boat has been hauled. It would be good if you could drill a hole in the bottom to see if it is waterlogged but no owner in their right mind would let you do that. Instead look for cracks in the glass and any soft bubbles that could indicate water under the glass. This is not necessarily the end of the world but it could be something you need to attend to at some stage. There are many posts on this site about fixing this.
3. are the compass bearings and seals ok?
4. Have a look at the electrics and battery set up. 
I don't know the boat you are looking at but you are looking at a boat that is approximately 40 years old. It would be very strange to find one that is absolutely perfect. I have learned that everything can be fixed in most cases by you. The construction of these boats makes them far more seaworthy and pleasant than the tacky plastic things that pass for sailing boats in the mass market today (I'm not biased! of course not! but I have sailed in these water caravans). If you are seeking out a KP44 you are very very likely to be the kind of person that they are meant for. There is a much smaller boat made to similar construction specifications in the UK today and its price is around 1.5 million Australian dollars. 


Re: Dry rot fix for KP44

greg wala
 

Thanks Dean for your input, I’m feeling much better prepared for my next inspection, I guess this will all make much more sense to me if/when I’m face to face with the job.

 

After the first look, she does look like a very liveable boat, I will keep this group updated on the progress, should I proceed with the purchase.

 

Cheers

Greg

 

From: petersoncuttter@groups.io <petersoncuttter@groups.io> On Behalf Of dkwallis2004
Sent: Wednesday, 22 July 2020 12:22 PM
To: petersoncuttter@groups.io
Subject: Re: [petersoncuttter] Dry rot fix for KP44

 

Hi Greg, some great advice from Brian!  I had completely forgotten selling those ports!  My boat was pretty "neglected" when I bought it, it would be fair to say.  It was very obvious that there was significant leak damage around the ports throughout the boat.  I removed the double port above the galley and chart table areas and screwed Lexan on, for the trip back to NZ.  When I removed those ports, the piece between them simply fell out.  I think my boat was built on a Friday...

My advice would be, if possible (which it probably won't be), select the worst-looking port and remove it.  What I found on my boat was that the holes cut in the coachroof for the ports were really roughly done.  Sometimes there was only about 3-4mm of fiberglass to land the ports on.  Trim rings fitted where they touched with gaps of up to about 6mm which just let the rain drain in.  The wood filling between the inner and outer fiberglass was rotted out under the ports and I had to dig out and epoxy those gaps before I could move on.  I'm sure your boat will be nowhere near as bad as mine was, but sometimes these comments can be handy to know.

We have lived aboard for the last 3 years and I can say that I don't have any leaks.  Friday night it rained over 220mm in 10 hours and we stayed dry.  My point is that it is all fixable and the boats are worth it at the end of the day.

I've added a couple of Hawaii photos (I was younger then...8>)


 
--
Dean
Weta KP44 #154