Topics

x axis jump

Roy Emeny
 

This follows on from a thread about using rectangles to simplify boards reducing milling operations.
Answers received prompted me to reconsider why I was trying to simplify boards.
This all started as a result of my sable mill’s occasional tendency to suddenly lose position by several mm.
It always jumps left (x).
I now recognise when it does it from the noise it emits when the fault occurs and with the feed rates low I can usually get to the system STOP button before too much damage is done to the board. Resetting to x zero manually, then rewinding the code a bit, gets it all back 'on track'.
Except when this occurs, perhaps once per hour, the results are spot on. Holes drilled from opposite sides line up ‘perfectly’.
I have tried reducing feed speeds and the acceleration on the x axis (Mach3) - boards now taking two or three hours per side with only one cut  (100mm x 80 mm) hence need for rectangles!
The computer is based on an Intel  Q6600, normally running win 7 but has separate boot disk so that I can run XP home to keep Mach 3 happy.
In XP I have turned off the internet connection and taken various steps as per Mach 3 instructions to limit processes interrupting – not that  I understood much of what I was doing!
I am thinking that I need to check the X section of the stepper motor driver board - dry joints, electrolytic caps, etc.
I doubt that anyone can help as probably my problem is unique, however, just in case there is someone out there who has had the same experience I thought I would try asking.
Apologies if this is a bit 'off topic' for this forum.

Roy

keith3125
 

That to me sounds like it might have to do with your motor tuning in Mach3. -Keith


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:47 AM, Roy Emeny wrote:
 
This follows on from a thread about using rectangles to simplify boards reducing milling operations.
Answers received prompted me to reconsider why I was trying to simplify boards.
This all started as a result of my sable mill’s occasional tendency to suddenly lose position by several mm.
It always jumps left (x).
I now recognise when it does it from the noise it emits when the fault occurs and with the feed rates low I can usually get to the system STOP button before too much damage is done to the board. Resetting to x zero manually, then rewinding the code a bit, gets it all back 'on track'.
Except when this occurs, perhaps once per hour, the results are spot on. Holes drilled from opposite sides line up ‘perfectly’.
I have tried reducing feed speeds and the acceleration on the x axis (Mach3) - boards now taking two or three hours per side with only one cut  (100mm x 80 mm) hence need for rectangles!
The computer is based on an Intel  Q6600, normally running win 7 but has separate boot disk so that I can run XP home to keep Mach 3 happy.
In XP I have turned off the internet connection and taken various steps as per Mach 3 instructions to limit processes interrupting – not that  I understood much of what I was doing!
I am thinking that I need to check the X section of the stepper motor driver board - dry joints, electrolytic caps, etc.
I doubt that anyone can help as probably my problem is unique, however, just in case there is someone out there who has had the same experience I thought I would try asking.
Apologies if this is a bit 'off topic' for this forum.

Roy


Roy Emeny
 

Hi Keith,
Thanks for the response. Started with manufactures timings which are  OK on Y axis. Reduced speed and acceleration on X (assuming that was way to go) but fault still persists. I am thinking that if it was an issue here the loss of position would be gradual - a missed pulse now and then but this is always sudden and dramatic. It has on occasions leapt from the +ve side to the negative region, sounds as though it suddenly receives a stream of high speed pulses letting out squeak rather than the musical tones it normally generates. Of course it is difficult to know if it is getting erroneous go left instructions or missing go right - I suppose the latter is more likely.
Roy


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 5:58, KC wrote:
 
That to me sounds like it might have to do with your motor tuning in Mach3. -Keith


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:47 AM, Roy Emeny wrote:
 
This follows on from a thread about using rectangles to simplify boards reducing milling operations.
Answers received prompted me to reconsider why I was trying to simplify boards.
This all started as a result of my sable mill’s occasional tendency to suddenly lose position by several mm.
It always jumps left (x).
I now recognise when it does it from the noise it emits when the fault occurs and with the feed rates low I can usually get to the system STOP button before too much damage is done to the board. Resetting to x zero manually, then rewinding the code a bit, gets it all back 'on track'.
Except when this occurs, perhaps once per hour, the results are spot on. Holes drilled from opposite sides line up ‘perfectly’.
I have tried reducing feed speeds and the acceleration on the x axis (Mach3) - boards now taking two or three hours per side with only one cut  (100mm x 80 mm) hence need for rectangles!
The computer is based on an Intel  Q6600, normally running win 7 but has separate boot disk so that I can run XP home to keep Mach 3 happy.
In XP I have turned off the internet connection and taken various steps as per Mach 3 instructions to limit processes interrupting – not that  I understood much of what I was doing!
I am thinking that I need to check the X section of the stepper motor driver board - dry joints, electrolytic caps, etc.
I doubt that anyone can help as probably my problem is unique, however, just in case there is someone out there who has had the same experience I thought I would try asking.
Apologies if this is a bit 'off topic' for this forum.

Roy




mlmcnc
 

Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions

Caraota Rocks
 

Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 

Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions

Roy Emeny
 

Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions


Roy Emeny
 

Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what I can on return - the list will be helpful.
Probably the first thing will be to swap the X and Y cables and use reflection in the other axis, that may yield some  elimination. 
Screened cables - not  sure - using as provided by the previous owner - something else to check.
Unfortunately my other computers are laptops and Mach3 warns against their use - may see if I can pick up an old desktop.
Difficulty with an hour or two between failures - it takes a long time to be sure - I have thought I have cured  the problem before several times- hence trying to live with it and get some boards made.

Roy


On , Roy Emeny wrote:
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions




Zulfqar Ali <zulfqar.ali@...>
 

Hi Roy,

 

Your problem maybe with electromagnetic  noise produced by the spindle or any other source within the mains circuit.  

While checking the list of things you have been suggested try to electrically  shield the spindle using Line Filter kit.

 

  

Best regards

 

Zulfqar

From: pcb-gcode@... [mailto:pcb-gcode@...] On Behalf Of Roy Emeny
Sent: 12. februar 2014 09:46
To: pcb-gcode@...
Subject: Re: [pcb-gcode] x axis jump

 

 

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the response. Started with manufactures timings which are  OK on Y axis. Reduced speed and acceleration on X (assuming that was way to go) but fault still persists. I am thinking that if it was an issue here the loss of position would be gradual - a missed pulse now and then but this is always sudden and dramatic. It has on occasions leapt from the +ve side to the negative region, sounds as though it suddenly receives a stream of high speed pulses letting out squeak rather than the musical tones it normally generates. Of course it is difficult to know if it is getting erroneous go left instructions or missing go right - I suppose the latter is more likely.

Roy

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 5:58, KC <kc1of36@...> wrote:

 

That to me sounds like it might have to do with your motor tuning in Mach3. -Keith

 

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:47 AM, Roy Emeny <forjacdf@...> wrote:

 

This follows on from a thread about using rectangles to simplify boards reducing milling operations.
Answers received prompted me to reconsider why I was trying to simplify boards.
This all started as a result of my sable mill’s occasional tendency to suddenly lose position by several mm.

It always jumps left (x).
I now recognise when it does it from the noise it emits when the fault occurs and with the feed rates low I can usually get to the system STOP button before too much damage is done to the board. Resetting to x zero manually, then rewinding the code a bit, gets it all back 'on track'.

Except when this occurs, perhaps once per hour, the results are spot on. Holes drilled from opposite sides line up ‘perfectly’.

I have tried reducing feed speeds and the acceleration on the x axis (Mach3) - boards now taking two or three hours per side with only one cut  (100mm x 80 mm) hence need for rectangles!

The computer is based on an Intel  Q6600, normally running win 7 but has separate boot disk so that I can run XP home to keep Mach 3 happy.

In XP I have turned off the internet connection and taken various steps as per Mach 3 instructions to limit processes interrupting – not that  I understood much of what I was doing!

I am thinking that I need to check the X section of the stepper motor driver board - dry joints, electrolytic caps, etc.

I doubt that anyone can help as probably my problem is unique, however, just in case there is someone out there who has had the same experience I thought I would try asking.
Apologies if this is a bit 'off topic' for this forum.

 

Roy

 

 

Dan Andersson
 

Roy,

Measure the power supply when running the mill.

Measuring is not what you do with a digital or analog voltmeter. Measuring of powersuplies are done with an oscilloscope.

Trouble with the mill electronics are widely dependent on under dimensioned or to ¨small¨ power supplies.

If you get a very large undervoltage, you might get very high current surges and that can destroy your electronics.

Don´t necessarily connect low voltage with low current!

If this isn´t the culprit, I´ve seen a lot of other advice to try.

Cheers

Dan, M0DFI


On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 05:43:49 +0000 (GMT)
Roy Emeny <forjacdf@...> wrote:

This follows on from a thread about using rectangles to
simplify boards reducing milling operations.
Answers received prompted me to reconsider why I was trying to simplify boards.
This all started as a result of my sable mill’s occasional tendency to suddenly
lose position by several mm.
It always jumps left (x).
I now recognise when it does it from the noise it emits when the fault occurs and
with the feed rates low I can usually get to the system STOP button before too much damage
is done to the board. Resetting to x zero manually, then rewinding the code a bit, gets it all back 'on track'.
Except when this occurs, perhaps once per hour, the results
are spot on. Holes drilled from opposite sides line up ‘perfectly’.
I have tried reducing feed speeds and the acceleration on
the x axis (Mach3) - boards now taking two or three hours per side with only one cut  (100mm x 80
mm) hence need for rectangles!
The computer is based on an Intel  Q6600, normally
running win 7 but has separate boot disk so that I can run XP home to keep Mach
3 happy.
In XP I have turned off the internet connection and taken
various steps as per Mach 3 instructions to limit processes interrupting – not
that  I understood much of what I was
doing!
I am thinking
that I need to check the X section of the stepper motor driver board - dry
joints, electrolytic caps, etc.
I doubt that anyone can help as probably my problem is unique, however, just in case there is someone out there who has had the same experience I thought I would try asking.
Apologies if this is a bit 'off topic' for this forum.

Roy

RL
 

I have two mills that are for the most part identical. I am running Parker drives with Parker Steppers, Windows 7 and Smooth steppers.
I use Mach 3 and have one mill doing the same thing. Every thing was fine until we remodeled the room in is in. They used aluminum
foil back insulation and ran longer power wires. I have tried re-tuning the motors, smooth stepper, swapping the drives, motors shielding the
cables, but I still have my doubts about the insulation and rewiring job.

My next step is to remove it from this room and put it else where. I will let you know if that make a difference. The other mill engraves perfect..

MP


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:51 PM, Roy Emeny wrote:
 
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions




RL
 

The line filter I will be adding this week as well. That is the second time it was suggested.
MP


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:00 PM, Mark Peroni wrote:
 
I have two mills that are for the most part identical. I am running Parker drives with Parker Steppers, Windows 7 and Smooth steppers.
I use Mach 3 and have one mill doing the same thing. Every thing was fine until we remodeled the room in is in. They used aluminum
foil back insulation and ran longer power wires. I have tried re-tuning the motors, smooth stepper, swapping the drives, motors shielding the
cables, but I still have my doubts about the insulation and rewiring job.

My next step is to remove it from this room and put it else where. I will let you know if that make a difference. The other mill engraves perfect..

MP


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:51 PM, Roy Emeny wrote:
 
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions






keith3125
 

I went through this with my Smoothstepper. In fact if you go to their forum, there's a bunch written about it. My solution was to put some hefty chokes on my spindle's motor and it did the trick. In fact they have some large enough at Radio Shack that clip on the AC cord.

A really good and short USB cable doesn't hurt either (with a smaller choke)
-Keith


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:00 PM, Mark Peroni wrote:
 
I have two mills that are for the most part identical. I am running Parker drives with Parker Steppers, Windows 7 and Smooth steppers.
I use Mach 3 and have one mill doing the same thing. Every thing was fine until we remodeled the room in is in. They used aluminum
foil back insulation and ran longer power wires. I have tried re-tuning the motors, smooth stepper, swapping the drives, motors shielding the
cables, but I still have my doubts about the insulation and rewiring job.

My next step is to remove it from this room and put it else where. I will let you know if that make a difference. The other mill engraves perfect..

MP


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:51 PM, Roy Emeny wrote:
 
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions






Roy Emeny
 

Hi,
Thanks to all who have suggesting screening and filtering.
Must admit this is not something I had thought about much assuming all the cables around the mill were high current outputs, the only input being to detect end of travel which has never been a problem. However, as suggested I suppose the spindle or stepper motors could be causing spikes that are getting back to the input of the controller.
From memory I don't think any cables are screened except the RS232 cable running between the computer  and the controller.
Definitely food for thought  (and action, can easily add a mains filter and ferrite rings around the cables) - however -
Question
I wonder if those reporting these issues get the same behaviour i.e. runs perfectly for an hour or so then does a massive error. I would have thought that electrical noise produced within the system would have been fairly consistent and that this would cause frequent small errors producing  a gradual loss of accuracy?

Roy





On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 21:12, Roy Emeny

 
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what I can on return - the list will be helpful.
Probably the first thing will be to swap the X and Y cables and use reflection in the other axis, that may yield some  elimination. 
Screened cables - not  sure - using as provided by the previous owner - something else to check.
Unfortunately my other computers are laptops and Mach3 warns against their use - may see if I can pick up an old desktop.
Difficulty with an hour or two between failures - it takes a long time to be sure - I have thought I have cured  the problem before several times- hence trying to live with it and get some boards made.

Roy


On , Roy Emeny wrote:
Thanks Martin & Pedro.
Away from home at present so will start checking what


On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota wrote:
 
Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.
Cheers,
Pedro



On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 
Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions






dick williams
 

Hi.
Why don't you try a 'dry run' by running the job without the spindle motor running ( obviously keep the Z axis out of the way ) before going to the trouble of fitting screening / filters etc. You will be able to hear the lost steps as before or you could  see if steps have been lost by testing for zero at the end.
I have a Sable mill and had one occasion when I lost steps on one axis.  My problem transfered to the other axis when I swapped X and Y.  It turned out I had a dry joint in the controlled board ( originally supplied with the Sable ).
Regards.
Dick...

John Johnson <pcbgcode@...>
 

Roy,

There could be something in your environment causing the problem, such as a space heater turning on or off, air conditioner, air compressor, etc.

Losing steps can be a very frustrating problem to solve. I wish you luck.

Regards,
JJ



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:36 AM, <tricci.dicci@...> wrote:
 

Hi.
Why don't you try a 'dry run' by running the job without the spindle motor running ( obviously keep the Z axis out of the way ) before going to the trouble of fitting screening / filters etc. You will be able to hear the lost steps as before or you could  see if steps have been lost by testing for zero at the end.
I have a Sable mill and had one occasion when I lost steps on one axis.  My problem transfered to the other axis when I swapped X and Y.  It turned out I had a dry joint in the controlled board ( originally supplied with the Sable ).
Regards.
Dick...




--
Sent from a MacBook Pro

keith3125
 

Well I've lost track of this thread but initially the person I suggested the chokes to, never mentioned the smoothstepper in their setup. Once I heard that the Smoothstepper was involved, your symptom was exactly what I went through and only went through when I started using the smoothstepper rather than the parallel port. Yup, it happened exactly that way, ran for an hour and then boom. You should really go to the Warp9 forum; you'll see this problem discussed. In fact, I believe Jeff on this forum wrote a nice tutorial on the Smoothstepper (I think) tips in general you should look at. His site is Soigeneris.
But do install the chokes. I bet that does it. It completely solved it for me.

But I do think the Smoothstepper is worth any of these anomalies encountered.-Keith 


On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:35 AM, John Johnson wrote:
 
Roy,

There could be something in your environment causing the problem, such as a space heater turning on or off, air conditioner, air compressor, etc.

Losing steps can be a very frustrating problem to solve. I wish you luck.

Regards,
JJ



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:36 AM, <tricci.dicci@...> wrote:
 
Hi.
Why don't you try a 'dry run' by running the job without the spindle motor running ( obviously keep the Z axis out of the way ) before going to the trouble of fitting screening / filters etc. You will be able to hear the lost steps as before or you could  see if steps have been lost by testing for zero at the end.
I have a Sable mill and had one occasion when I lost steps on one axis.  My problem transfered to the other axis when I swapped X and Y.  It turned out I had a dry joint in the controlled board ( originally supplied with the Sable ).
Regards.
Dick...



--
Sent from a MacBook Pro


Zulfqar Ali <zulfqar.ali@...>
 

Hi,

 

Line filters do the magic, you may have heard the stories about the intermittent spikes or ghosts striking just before the job has finished. In my case it has always been the electromagnetic noise. Remedy is simple shield the cables and apply proper ground connection and avoid using water pipe for ground connections.

 

Best regards

 

Zulfqar  

 

From: pcb-gcode@... [mailto:pcb-gcode@...] On Behalf Of Mark Peroni
Sent: 13. februar 2014 05:05
To: pcb-gcode@...
Subject: Re: [pcb-gcode] x axis jump

 

 

The line filter I will be adding this week as well. That is the second time it was suggested.

MP

 

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:00 PM, Mark Peroni <rlrc2003@...> wrote:

 

I have two mills that are for the most part identical. I am running Parker drives with Parker Steppers, Windows 7 and Smooth steppers.

I use Mach 3 and have one mill doing the same thing. Every thing was fine until we remodeled the room in is in. They used aluminum

foil back insulation and ran longer power wires. I have tried re-tuning the motors, smooth stepper, swapping the drives, motors shielding the

cables, but I still have my doubts about the insulation and rewiring job.

 

My next step is to remove it from this room and put it else where. I will let you know if that make a difference. The other mill engraves perfect..

 

MP

 

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:51 PM, Roy Emeny <forjacdf@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Martin & Pedro.

Away from home at present so will start checking what

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota <caraotarocks@...> wrote:

 

Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.

Cheers,

Pedro

 


On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 

Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions

 

 

 

Zulfqar Ali <zulfqar.ali@...>
 

Hi Roy,

 

I have big respect for Murphy. He always strikes in the most unthinkable ways. You give him a millimetre he will take an inch.  What I meant to say is keep your basics in order.  Shield your equipment from internal and external EM interference. Not doing so you maybe casing someone else  EMI issues or someone is casing you. Some time its as simple as a faulty switch in your elevator circuit  in the building which is activated in the middle of your job.

 

Always make sure your equipment are in an electrical  DMZ.

 

Thanks

 

Zulfqar

 

From: pcb-gcode@... [mailto:pcb-gcode@...] On Behalf Of Roy Emeny
Sent: 13. februar 2014 07:21
To: pcb-gcode@...
Subject: Re: [pcb-gcode] x axis jump

 

 

Hi,

Thanks to all who have suggesting screening and filtering.
Must admit this is not something I had thought about much assuming all the cables around the mill were high current outputs, the only input being to detect end of travel which has never been a problem. However, as suggested I suppose the spindle or stepper motors could be causing spikes that are getting back to the input of the controller.

From memory I don't think any cables are screened except the RS232 cable running between the computer  and the controller.

Definitely food for thought  (and action, can easily add a mains filter and ferrite rings around the cables) - however -
Question
I wonder if those reporting these issues get the same behaviour i.e. runs perfectly for an hour or so then does a massive error. I would have thought that electrical noise produced within the system would have been fairly consistent and that this would cause frequent small errors producing  a gradual loss of accuracy?

 

Roy

 

 

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 21:12, Roy Emeny <forjacdf@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Martin & Pedro.

Away from home at present so will start checking what I can on return - the list will be helpful.

Probably the first thing will be to swap the X and Y cables and use reflection in the other axis, that may yield some  elimination. 

Screened cables - not  sure - using as provided by the previous owner - something else to check.

Unfortunately my other computers are laptops and Mach3 warns against their use - may see if I can pick up an old desktop.

Difficulty with an hour or two between failures - it takes a long time to be sure - I have thought I have cured  the problem before several times- hence trying to live with it and get some boards made.

 

Roy

 

On , Roy Emeny <forjacdf@...> wrote:

Thanks Martin & Pedro.

Away from home at present so will start checking what

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2014, 16:59, Caraota <caraotarocks@...> wrote:

 

Are you using shielded cables for your stepper motors? Check all grounds and make sure there are no ground loops. I'm not an expert but I have read that not paying the proper attention to these issues may result in problems like yours.

Cheers,

Pedro

 


On 2014-02-12, at 6:55 AM, <martin312@...> wrote:

 

Hi Roy,
A process of elimination is required here.
The possible causes are:-
1) sticking guide rails or threaded rods. I'm assuming that you have checked this
2) insufficient torque from the steppers. Do you have sufficient drive voltage and current capacity from your stepper drivers.
3) faulty stepper drivers. Can you swap over the drivers to see if the fault moves with the driver.
4) faulty printer port interface board. Can you change the ports you are using to see if the fault moves with it.
5) see if there is a newer printer driver for your computer.
6) can you try running on another PC.

Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Martin Marriott
mlmSolutions

 

 

 

Danny Miller <dannym@...>
 

I've had PLENTY of problems with the USB SmoothStepper.  But missed steps was NOT one of them!

USB SS is highly susceptible to noise, but it's invariably FATAL.  It will crash and you must exit Mach 3 and cycle power on the SmoothStepper.

Problem is the FTDI USB-to-parallel bridge chip.  It handles the USB link protocol and has no way to do recovery.  The FTDI chip crashes and the SS design can't do anything to fix that.

From my experience it CANNOT lose steps.  It's impossible.  It'll just die.

It can be fixed by noise filters.  However from what I can tell, you can't add more noise filtering to the computer and DC power supply here.  They're already filtered.  I think it's coming through the USB cable, rerouting it seemed make failure less likely but the problem didn't go away with rerouting.

I had a problem where the spindle motor and a small coolant pump would predictably kill the SmoothStepper due to start-up surge.  Adding filters on the motor and pump FIXED it.  However, unfortunately there's no end to other possible sources of noise like this elsewhere.  That is, someone kicks on a blender in the kitchen with no noise filter, it MIGHT die.

That problem was a primary reason they changed to the Ethernet SmoothStepper design.

Danny

On 2/13/2014 9:16 AM, KC wrote:
 
Well I've lost track of this thread but initially the person I suggested the chokes to, never mentioned the smoothstepper in their setup. Once I heard that the Smoothstepper was involved, your symptom was exactly what I went through and only went through when I started using the smoothstepper rather than the parallel port. Yup, it happened exactly that way, ran for an hour and then boom. You should really go to the Warp9 forum; you'll see this problem discussed. In fact, I believe Jeff on this forum wrote a nice tutorial on the Smoothstepper (I think) tips in general you should look at. His site is Soigeneris.
But do install the chokes. I bet that does it. It completely solved it for me.

But I do think the Smoothstepper is worth any of these anomalies encountered.-Keith 


On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:35 AM, John Johnson wrote:
 
Roy,

There could be something in your environment causing the problem, such as a space heater turning on or off, air conditioner, air compressor, etc.

Losing steps can be a very frustrating problem to solve. I wish you luck.

Regards,
JJ



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:36 AM, <tricci.dicci@...> wrote:
 
Hi.
Why don't you try a 'dry run' by running the job without the spindle motor running ( obviously keep the Z axis out of the way ) before going to the trouble of fitting screening / filters etc. You will be able to hear the lost steps as before or you could  see if steps have been lost by testing for zero at the end.
I have a Sable mill and had one occasion when I lost steps on one axis.  My problem transfered to the other axis when I swapped X and Y.  It turned out I had a dry joint in the controlled board ( originally supplied with the Sable ).
Regards.
Dick...



--
Sent from a MacBook Pro



Roy Emeny
 

Once again, thanks to all for suggestions and of course in particular JJ who has made all this possible.
Just to clarify
No I don't have smooth stepper, I had not heard of it but that gave me something else to look at while I am away from home and the mill in question.
I also said RS232 at some point but from later responses remembered mine use the parallel port - anyway definitely not USB.
All of you must be thinking that I am trying to do this without doing sufficient background reading - and you would be right! When I got the mill I was already working on a project (fortunately only amateur) and it was a question of getting the mill to do something quickly - when I get back home I shall have a bit more time to do things properly.

The plan is:
Reset all to original much higher speeds as suggested by Sable (mine came from Taiwan but it looks as though they have been bought out?) 
Swap X and Y.
Do a dry run just checking 0,0,0 from time to time.
Use a scope to see  if that reveals any differences between X and Y.
Repeat with some filters added.
Plus all the checks and substitutions suggested in this thread. 
Will look into smooth stepper - or perhaps running the milling phase using Linux (I did try this early on but with no success). I suspect there will be previous threads that will help me with that when I have a better internet connection.
Thanks for everyone's help and patience.

Roy 


On Thursday, 13 February 2014, 13:35, John Johnson wrote:
 
Roy,

There could be something in your environment causing the problem, such as a space heater turning on or off, air conditioner, air compressor, etc.

Losing steps can be a very frustrating problem to solve. I wish you luck.

Regards,
JJ



On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 5:36 AM, <tricci.dicci@...> wrote:
 
Hi.
Why don't you try a 'dry run' by running the job without the spindle motor running ( obviously keep the Z axis out of the way ) before going to the trouble of fitting screening / filters etc. You will be able to hear the lost steps as before or you could  see if steps have been lost by testing for zero at the end.
I have a Sable mill and had one occasion when I lost steps on one axis.  My problem transfered to the other axis when I swapped X and Y.  It turned out I had a dry joint in the controlled board ( originally supplied with the Sable ).
Regards.
Dick...



--
Sent from a MacBook Pro