Welcome to all the new members !

The group is up to about 350 now, amazing.

***

First a quick note to let everyone know how the group is set up.

Everyone starts off with Moderated status. That means I get your email before the list does, so there will be a delay before your first message comes through. This lets me take care of spammers or weinies. Remarkably, there haven't been any yet. Once I see you're okay, I take you off Moderated status, if I don't forget :-).

The same goes for Photos and Files. We don't want any racey pictures here, there are plenty of other groups for that.

***

I'm working on a few enhancements and bug fixes to pcb-gcode.

Drill Rack Files
At present, I'm working on adding Drill Rack files. This will let you tell pcb-gcode what size drills you have. The holes in the PCB will be rounded up or down by a percentage that you specify to the suitable size. When it's ready for testing, I'll post a .zip file for everyone.

The Drill Rack change had a ripple effect through a lot of the other code. There have been several things I've wanted to make better (easier to maintain, more reliable, etc.), so I'm also working on that.

Plotting Traces
In the back of my mind, I'm thinking about implementing plotting traces. This would let you use a resist-ink (Sharpie) pen to plot traces on a board, which you could then chemically etch. You could also plot on a transparency, and used a photo sensitive board and chemical fixing and etching.

Solder Mask
I'm also thinking about how to implement a "silk screen" effect. One possibility is to use a Sharpie to draw all over the pads and vias. You could then spray the board with something that can resist alcohol. After the coating is dry, wipe the board with alcohol and the Sharpie comes off the solder areas. That would be a fine board! All this depends on finding a suitable resist-ink and coating. In other words, if both the coating and resist come off with alcohol, it won't work.

Text
While we're thinking about all this pen based plotting, parts layout and numbering could be plotted on the board too.

***

To get a better understanding of what you all want this program to do, I'm going to start a couple more polls. I have found polls to be annoying on other groups, but I hope you all won't. It is a great way to get feedback and direction for the future of pcb-gcode.

The last poll you all took (Which control software do you use?) was very helpful, to summarize:
Mach3 11
TurboCNC 7
EMC 6
Mach2 3
USBCNC 3
Other 3

Thanks to everyone!

Happy Milling,
JJ

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Hi John,

Some comments below.

Behalf Of John Johnson

Welcome to all the new members !

The group is up to about 350 now, amazing.

***

First a quick note to let everyone know how the group is set up.

Everyone starts off with Moderated status. That means I get your email
before the list does, so there will be a delay before your first message
comes through. This lets me take care of spammers or weinies. Remarkably,
there haven't been any yet. Once I see you're okay, I take you off
Moderated status, if I don't forget :-).

The same goes for Photos and Files. We don't want any racey pictures here,
there are plenty of other groups for that.

I moderate new members (messages) on my lists as well. I like to see the
first post or two before I give them un-moderated status. And I moderate
for photos. But how do you moderate files and links?

***

I'm working on a few enhancements and bug fixes to pcb-gcode.

<snip>

Plotting Traces
In the back of my mind, I'm thinking about implementing plotting traces.
This would let you use a resist-ink (Sharpie) pen to plot traces on a
board, which you could then chemically etch. You could also plot on a
transparency, and used a photo sensitive board and chemical fixing and
etching.

Great! That's one of the things I was thinking about as well. I really like
the idea of a router or mill either cutting the traces or "plotting" them.

I have JPG files for two small single sided boards that I'd LOVE to generate
Eagle. One is about 3.5" by 5", too big for my Eagle LIGHT. And the
Standard version is not that much bigger! I'm wondering if I could just get
the board layout (base) upgrade and continue to use my LIGHT schematic
entry. Maybe it's too limiting as well. I can do without the auto routing.
What are people doing in this area?

I will mention (later in this post) that I import to CAD, I'm wondering if I
can layout two pieces, and "stitch" them together in my CAD program? I
don't mean to cheat, but...

Solder Mask
I'm also thinking about how to implement a "silk screen" effect. One
possibility is to use a Sharpie to draw all over the pads and vias. You
could then spray the board with something that can resist alcohol. After
the coating is dry, wipe the board with alcohol and the Sharpie comes off
the solder areas. That would be a fine board! All this depends on finding
a suitable resist-ink and coating. In other words, if both the coating and
resist come off with alcohol, it won't work.

I think I just read something about a re-useable silk screen material just
for this purpose. If we could generate a file for this use, it could be
very useful.

http://www.cbridge.com/

I must admit, I haven't researched what it DOES, or HOW it works, but a
fellow engineer out here is hot on it. We'll be discussing making PCBs at
tomorrow's breakfast meeting. Maybe I'll know more then.

Text
While we're thinking about all this pen based plotting, parts layout and
numbering could be plotted on the board too.

***

To get a better understanding of what you all want this program to do, I'm
going to start a couple more polls. I have found polls to be annoying on
other groups, but I hope you all won't. It is a great way to get feedback
and direction for the future of pcb-gcode.

The last poll you all took (Which control software do you use?) was very
helpful, to summarize:
Mach3 11
TurboCNC 7
EMC 6
Mach2 3
USBCNC 3
Other 3

Thanks to everyone!

Happy Milling,
JJ

OK, I missed that poll (I don't normally do polls). I normally use my own
CNC controller program, STEP4, although I've now got USBCNC for my new PCB
router. I also have Mach3, although I haven't done any work with it.

One other thing that may be useful is the generation of DXF files that can
be imported into CAD programs. I currently import your generated Gcode
files into Vector CAD/CAM so that I can study what they're going to do for
me. I believe other ULPs can generate DXF, but I'd like to see them from
the SAME source (isolation algorithms). A PLT file might accomplish the
same thing, or even a simple JPG that represented the tool paths.

Question:

Do you finish the first isolation pass before starting a new one? It might
be useful to generate a M01, M02 (?) conditional stop between passes, if
wanted. I'm finding that I can't normally do more then one isolation pass,
it could be my tool size and setup as well. I'm still playing with that.


Alan KM6VV

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:48:54 -0400, KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

But how do you moderate files and links?

You can set it up in the Moderation panel. Should be self-explanitory, if
not, drop me a line.

Great! That's one of the things I was thinking about as well. I really
like
the idea of a router or mill either cutting the traces or "plotting"
them.

That was an idea I picked up on this list. Hadn't thought of it myself. I
had thought about using a UV LED with a small aperture/lens to directly
expose UV sensitive boards, just like the photoplotters did/do. That would
be a possibility for the "pen" routines too. An Mxx to turn an output on
and off, which could be used for pen down/up, or LED on/off. I guess you
could control a syringe with it to. This could get (even more) complicated!

I have JPG files for two small single sided boards that I'd LOVE to
generate
Eagle. One is about 3.5" by 5", too big for my Eagle LIGHT. And the
Standard version is not that much bigger! I'm wondering if I could just
get
the board layout (base) upgrade and continue to use my LIGHT schematic
entry. Maybe it's too limiting as well. I can do without the auto
routing.
What are people doing in this area?

You might look at Inkscape or ImageJ. I believe they both can trace a
bitmap, which you might be able to export as something you could convert
to something else to import into your CAD program. Inkscape can save .svg,
.ps, .eps, .pdf files (as well as others). Not sure about ImageJ. (Might
look into The GIMP as well.)

I will mention (later in this post) that I import to CAD, I'm wondering
if I
can layout two pieces, and "stitch" them together in my CAD program? I
don't mean to cheat, but...

Be nice if you could divide it by functional blocks, power supply, logic;
or logic, I/O, etc.

Solder Mask
I'm also thinking about how to implement a "silk screen" effect. One

I think I just read something about a re-useable silk screen material
just
for this purpose. If we could generate a file for this use, it could be
very useful.

http://www.cbridge.com/

I must admit, I haven't researched what it DOES, or HOW it works, but a
fellow engineer out here is hot on it. We'll be discussing making PCBs
at
tomorrow's breakfast meeting. Maybe I'll know more then.

Cool, keep us posted.

OK, I missed that poll (I don't normally do polls). I normally use my
own
CNC controller program, STEP4, although I've now got USBCNC for my new
PCB
router. I also have Mach3, although I haven't done any work with it.

One other thing that may be useful is the generation of DXF files that
can
be imported into CAD programs. I currently import your generated Gcode
files into Vector CAD/CAM so that I can study what they're going to do
for
me. I believe other ULPs can generate DXF, but I'd like to see them from
the SAME source (isolation algorithms). A PLT file might accomplish the
same thing, or even a simple JPG that represented the tool paths.

Actually, using the user-gcode functionality, it might be feasible to
generate HPGL or even .svg from the program as it stands now. I hesitate
to mention this :-) but I was working on a preview feature that used this
method to generate .svg which you could open in a capable web browser.
I think HPGL would be especially easy to do, although it might be
difficult "throwing away" the parameters used. I.e. in user-gcode.h:
OUTLINE_BEGIN[ALL] = "PD;&#92;n";
OUTLINE_END[ALL] = "PU;&#92;n";
and in gcode-defaults.h (copied from an hpgl.pp file, for instance):
...
string FEED = "";
...
string MOVE_X = FORMAT + ",";
string MOVE_Y = FORMAT + ";";
string MOVE_XY = MOVE_X + MOVE_Y;
...
string FEED_MOVE_XY = FEED + MOVE_XY + EOL;
...
Come to think of it, since rapids are with tool up, and feeds are with
tool down, you might not need user-gcode.h, i.e.
(gcode-defaults.h)
...
string RAPID = "PU;";
string FEED = "PD;";
...
move x and y as above.

Your pause between passes question is answered in an upcoming email, in
case someone searches for it in the future.

Regards,
JJ

--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

HI John,

Behalf Of John Johnson

Great! That's one of the things I was thinking about as well. I really
like
the idea of a router or mill either cutting the traces or "plotting"
them.

That was an idea I picked up on this list. Hadn't thought of it myself. I
had thought about using a UV LED with a small aperture/lens to directly
expose UV sensitive boards, just like the photoplotters did/do. That would
be a possibility for the "pen" routines too. An Mxx to turn an output on
and off, which could be used for pen down/up, or LED on/off. I guess you
could control a syringe with it to. This could get (even more)
complicated!

Might have been me! I mentioned pens and plotting a resist pattern on one
of the lists I'm on. But I'm afraid that a UV LED would be way too S L O W
for a direct plotter. Even for film, its too slow from what I've heard.
Jon E. on the CCED list has a website, and on it he describes a PHOTOPLOTTER
he built. Drum type, uses film. I think we discussed using a pen plotter.
But I'd love to be able to directly expose a board. Maybe we need a UV
LASER?

I have JPG files for two small single sided boards that I'd LOVE to
generate
Eagle. One is about 3.5" by 5", too big for my Eagle LIGHT. And the
Standard version is not that much bigger! I'm wondering if I could just
get
the board layout (base) upgrade and continue to use my LIGHT schematic
entry. Maybe it's too limiting as well. I can do without the auto
routing.
What are people doing in this area?

You might look at Inkscape or ImageJ. I believe they both can trace a
bitmap, which you might be able to export as something you could convert
to something else to import into your CAD program. Inkscape can save .svg,
.ps, .eps, .pdf files (as well as others). Not sure about ImageJ. (Might
look into The GIMP as well.)

I'll see what they can do. But I'm more interested in generating the traces
from a net list, that is, from a schematic initially.

I will mention (later in this post) that I import to CAD, I'm wondering
if I
can layout two pieces, and "stitch" them together in my CAD program? I
don't mean to cheat, but...

Be nice if you could divide it by functional blocks, power supply, logic;
or logic, I/O, etc.

Not too much that can be divided, LCD display and 232 IC, perhaps. I've
attached a pix (might get stripped). I just submitted it for the photos
section under KM6VV PCB Router.

Actually, using the user-gcode functionality, it might be feasible to
generate HPGL or even .svg from the program as it stands now. I hesitate
to mention this :-) but I was working on a preview feature that used this
method to generate .svg which you could open in a capable web browser.
I think HPGL would be especially easy to do, although it might be
difficult "throwing away" the parameters used. I.e. in user-gcode.h:
OUTLINE_BEGIN[ALL] = "PD;&#92;n";
OUTLINE_END[ALL] = "PU;&#92;n";
and in gcode-defaults.h (copied from an hpgl.pp file, for instance):
...
string FEED = "";
...
string MOVE_X = FORMAT + ",";
string MOVE_Y = FORMAT + ";";
string MOVE_XY = MOVE_X + MOVE_Y;
...
string FEED_MOVE_XY = FEED + MOVE_XY + EOL;
...
Come to think of it, since rapids are with tool up, and feeds are with
tool down, you might not need user-gcode.h, i.e.
(gcode-defaults.h)
...
string RAPID = "PU;";
string FEED = "PD;";
...
move x and y as above.

Your pause between passes question is answered in an upcoming email, in
case someone searches for it in the future.

Regards,
JJ

I haven't done much with SVG files, JPG, BMP or PNG (?) would certainly be
useful. Yes, I'd think a PLT (HPGL) file would be easy enough to generate
from the Gcode (or slightly earlier in the process, if easier). DXF files
would be good, but anymore they're fairly complex to generate. Then again,
there's nothing wrong with the way I import them. However that facility is
probably not available to everyone. DXF might be the BEST.

Alan KM6VV

This place has some crazy bright,UV LEDs/LASERs:
http://www.roithner-laser.com/index.htm
-Keith

Hi Keith,

Have you researched them? It would be interesting to find something with a small enough beam and bright enough to expose a photosensitive board or a film!

thanks,

Alan KM6VV


keith3125 wrote:

He Guys,

About plotting with an expensive milling machine.
For plotting can you better buy a samsun laser printer for $70,=
and use transparent sheets.
Then use an old scanner and put face browning lamps in it, done,
i guess for totally including laser printer for $100,=
Arent you guys a little bit of track here?

Regards,
bert
www.usbcnc.com

Hi Alan,I have of late been experimenting with these newer high-lux L.E.D.s but just the
infrared and white ones. Certainly the power is there(there's a white one with 175 lux!!! on
one of the manufacturer's site).I've lit up an entire room with 3,5Watt Ir L.E.D.s to an
infrared sensitive camera.They have to be regulated and take a lot of current but very
much usable otherwise.They're into 3rd generation already.However I think you might
want some kind of mask(even the lasers in laser printers use a small aperture mask to
accomplish defining the beam)and some special collimation which I have been able to do
fairly easily to achieve the kind of beam size we would want, using a decent glass
collimating,two lense system.Luxeon(the major player in high lux L.E.D.s http://
www.luxeonstar.com/) has a series they call :'Luxeon Dental' for U.V. curing;not technically
U.V. but blue with a strong and dominant wavelength of 460nm.
Also saw this that I bid on ,on a similar auction that got too high for my budget but cheap
compared to what you might expect to pay for a U.V. laser diode system:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=290026531618&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT&refitem=
290021492772&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CategoryProxi
mity&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
I think with the cost of U.V. laser diodes coming down in the very near future this will be a
no-brainer.-Keith

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:41:09 +0200, you wrote:

He Guys,

About plotting with an expensive milling machine.
For plotting can you better buy a samsun laser printer for $70,=
and use transparent sheets.

The density of the transparencies, while good, is not quite good
enough. Exposure needs to be tightly controlled to avoid overexposing
the board through the dark gray of the transparency.

Then use an old scanner and put face browning lamps in it, done,
i guess for totally including laser printer for $100,=
Arent you guys a little bit of track here?

depending on the board, you can use fluorescent lamps, either 8000K or
black light. 3 or 4 of them should be enough to expose the average
board. Make a vacuum hold down out of MDF and a shop vacuum and
you're in good shape for exposure.

Harvey

Regards,
bert
www.usbcnc.com



----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Marconett
To: pcb-gcode@...
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [pcb-gcode] Re: Welcome, Message delays, Future Features and other administrivia


Hi Keith,

Have you researched them? It would be interesting to find something
with a small enough beam and bright enough to expose a photosensitive
board or a film!

thanks,

Alan KM6VV

keith3125 wrote:
> This place has some crazy bright,UV LEDs/LASERs:
> http://www.roithner-laser.com/index.htm
> -Keith






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Hi Keith,

A laser printer's laser you say. I have parts from a few HP LaserJet series II & III, I haven't played with them. Perhaps they could be mounted on a CNC carriage. A diode of course would be smaller and easier still. I was wondering if an aperture would be needed/desirable.

Will either of these expose a photo resist? I have no idea of the time/intensity required. If in range, I could certainly machine up a carrier or adapter to fit on my mill or the PCB mill I'm building.

Do you have figures? or a example?

Gavin had some ideas as well.

I'd like something to play with that can expose a photosensitive board or film. I'll make it move about!

Alan KM6VV

keith3125 wrote:

Hi Alan,I have of late been experimenting with these newer high-lux L.E.D.s but just the infrared and white ones. Certainly the power is there(there's a white one with 175 lux!!! on one of the manufacturer's site).I've lit up an entire room with 3,5Watt Ir L.E.D.s to an infrared sensitive camera.They have to be regulated and take a lot of current but very much usable otherwise.They're into 3rd generation already.However I think you might want some kind of mask(even the lasers in laser printers use a small aperture mask to accomplish defining the beam)and some special collimation which I have been able to do fairly easily to achieve the kind of beam size we would want, using a decent glass collimating,two lense system.Luxeon(the major player in high lux L.E.D.s http://
www.luxeonstar.com/) has a series they call :'Luxeon Dental' for U.V. curing;not technically U.V. but blue with a strong and dominant wavelength of 460nm.
Also saw this that I bid on ,on a similar auction that got too high for my budget but cheap compared to what you might expect to pay for a U.V. laser diode system:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=290026531618&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT&refitem=
290021492772&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CategoryProxi
mity&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
I think with the cost of U.V. laser diodes coming down in the very near future this will be a no-brainer.-Keith

Nice laser link.
UV/purple ones should be ok, power is high for semi laser.
Used in Blueray DVD drives?

What about infrared lasers? burning off the resist, as long as the resist absorbs IR, the copper underneith wont absorb the IR. Semi IR laser high enough power or need to go to CO2.
Any laser cutter users on group?

Gavin

As far as I know,all laser printers use laser diodes that use lasers at all.
Unfortunately they're all IR lasers and not quite as strong as the ones in CD burners but
still around 35mw or so(still watch your eyes). The unfortunate part is that most photo
resists are exposed with UV. If it worked at all it would probably be unusable. I don't know
,have never tried but that's my educated guess.But like I said,the toner from laser printers
would make a nice resist sensitive to burning off with the IR laser diode.The toner is
essentially just plastic that melts nicely to the copper board. If it's 'black' ,it'll burn.-Keith

--- In pcb-gcode@..., KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

Hi Keith,

A laser printer's laser you say. I have parts from a few HP LaserJet
series II & III, I haven't played with them. Perhaps they could be
mounted on a CNC carriage. A diode of course would be smaller and
easier still. I was wondering if an aperture would be needed/desirable.

Will either of these expose a photo resist? I have no idea of the
time/intensity required. If in range, I could certainly machine up a
carrier or adapter to fit on my mill or the PCB mill I'm building.

Do you have figures? or a example?

Gavin had some ideas as well.

I'd like something to play with that can expose a photosensitive board
or film. I'll make it move about!

Alan KM6VV

keith3125 wrote:

Hi Alan,I have of late been experimenting with these newer high-lux L.E.D.s but just

the

infrared and white ones. Certainly the power is there(there's a white one with 175

lux!!! on

one of the manufacturer's site).I've lit up an entire room with 3,5Watt Ir L.E.D.s to an
infrared sensitive camera.They have to be regulated and take a lot of current but very
much usable otherwise.They're into 3rd generation already.However I think you might
want some kind of mask(even the lasers in laser printers use a small aperture mask to
accomplish defining the beam)and some special collimation which I have been able to

do

fairly easily to achieve the kind of beam size we would want, using a decent glass
collimating,two lense system.Luxeon(the major player in high lux L.E.D.s http://
www.luxeonstar.com/) has a series they call :'Luxeon Dental' for U.V. curing;not

technically

U.V. but blue with a strong and dominant wavelength of 460nm.
Also saw this that I bid on ,on a similar auction that got too high for my budget but

cheap

compared to what you might expect to pay for a U.V. laser diode system:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&item=290026531618&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT&refitem

=

290021492772&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&usedrule1=CategoryProx

i

mity&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget
I think with the cost of U.V. laser diodes coming down in the very near future this will

be a

no-brainer.-Keith

>

Nice laser link.
UV/purple ones should be ok, power is high for semi laser.
Used in Blueray DVD drives?

What about infrared lasers? burning off the resist, as long as the resist
absorbs IR, the copper underneith wont absorb the IR. Semi IR laser high
enough power or need to go to CO2.
Any laser cutter users on group?

Gavin

Hi Keith,

OK, I remember that now. Just a thought. So you think it's better to completely coat a board with toner, then burn it off? Does that leave bare copper?

I thought the laser toners were some sort of carbon? not plastic (inkjet?)? So one would need a way to evenly cover a board, and fuse it on.

We're back to the functions commonly done by a laser printer! Electrostatic charge to attract the toner powder, a fuser, and THEN a laser, this time to burn off toner rather then dissipate the charge on the toner drum. OK, a little different. I wonder it a copper plate can take a charge like the selenium (?) drum in the laser printer?

What drive do these diodes need? We'd also need on/off control via program. Humm, almost like a spindle control.

Alan KM6VV
P.S. Sorry for all the questions, all I have are some CNC side answers, which I'd assume you have as well.


keith3125 wrote:

No, toner is plastic based.
You buy some of the paper that releases the toner when dropped in water. This is what we
used before milling and after photo printing. Digi-Key sells it. But instead of designing a
board and printing it on the paper,you do a full black page. This could get expenisve toner
wise because you need to print it 'dark'(of course you don't necessarily need a full 8X11
sheet).You can touch up pin holes if you get them once the paper is fused to the paper
(using a laminator)with a 'sharpie' marker;the laser should burn this as well.I'm not saying
this is the most efficient way but it should work. For me,I am now completely invested in
using pcb-gcode to cut the board with the results I'm getting,it's the fastest way to
prototype for me.
The copper board won't work as paper does in a laser printer...I know...I tried it years ago.
The laser needs a very well regulated supply.My board for the laser you see in the video is
about 1/4"X1.5",all SMD.If you don't regulate...pop goes the laser.You have to calculate
the current you want and stick a resistor for the proper wattage between the regulator and
laser and that's it! Regulators exist with on and off input pins so that's what you use for
turning the beam on and off.You may have to 'condition' the input to this input control.Not
a very big deal to do.
Again,watch your eyes with these lasers. They can easily blind you...PERMANENTLY!
--- In pcb-gcode@..., KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

Hi Keith,

OK, I remember that now. Just a thought. So you think it's better to
completely coat a board with toner, then burn it off? Does that leave
bare copper?

I thought the laser toners were some sort of carbon? not plastic
(inkjet?)? So one would need a way to evenly cover a board, and fuse it on.

We're back to the functions commonly done by a laser printer!
Electrostatic charge to attract the toner powder, a fuser, and THEN a
laser, this time to burn off toner rather then dissipate the charge on
the toner drum. OK, a little different. I wonder it a copper plate can
take a charge like the selenium (?) drum in the laser printer?

What drive do these diodes need? We'd also need on/off control via
program. Humm, almost like a spindle control.

Alan KM6VV
P.S. Sorry for all the questions, all I have are some CNC side answers,
which I'd assume you have as well.


keith3125 wrote:

As far as I know,all laser printers use laser diodes that use lasers at all.
Unfortunately they're all IR lasers and not quite as strong as the ones in CD burners

but

still around 35mw or so(still watch your eyes). The unfortunate part is that most photo
resists are exposed with UV. If it worked at all it would probably be unusable. I don't

know

,have never tried but that's my educated guess.But like I said,the toner from laser

printers

would make a nice resist sensitive to burning off with the IR laser diode.The toner is
essentially just plastic that melts nicely to the copper board. If it's 'black' ,it'll burn.-

Keith

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:05:25 -0700, you wrote:

Hi Keith,

OK, I remember that now. Just a thought. So you think it's better to
completely coat a board with toner, then burn it off? Does that leave
bare copper?

It might, it would also leave a residue. You'd be burning off the
plastic.

I thought the laser toners were some sort of carbon? not plastic
(inkjet?)? So one would need a way to evenly cover a board, and fuse it on.

Carbon loaded fusible plastic. Applied as a dust, attracted to the
charged areas, fused into a solid (sorta) block by the fuser (heated
roller), and that fuses into the paper.

Toner transfer systems fuse onto something that either dissolves in
water easily (rice paper?) or has a weak adhesion to toner. The toner
melts and fuses to the PC board copper.
(note: with varying degrees of success....)

We're back to the functions commonly done by a laser printer!
Electrostatic charge to attract the toner powder, a fuser, and THEN a
laser, this time to burn off toner rather then dissipate the charge on
the toner drum.

Big problem with a laser printer is how to make the charge distribute
evenly across the conductive board, and not at the edges, where it
wants to be.

My understanding about current laser systems is that the drum is an
assemblage of crystals, which conduct poorly across the surface, and
well *to* the surface of the drum. Hence a small area can hold a
charge. If we print from a drum onto copper, this might work. If we
print the toner onto the copper, I'll be it won't. Period.

OK, a little different. I wonder it a copper plate can
take a charge like the selenium (?) drum in the laser printer?

See above, I think the answer is an unqualified "NO".

at least, not in a useful manner.

What drive do these diodes need? We'd also need on/off control via
program. Humm, almost like a spindle control.

Current regulation like you wouldn't believe for a laser diode. My
understanding is that they will self destruct with too much current,
and not lase with too little.

Most applications I know of suggest that you use the supplied driver
chips/board.

Harvey

Alan KM6VV
P.S. Sorry for all the questions, all I have are some CNC side answers,
which I'd assume you have as well.


keith3125 wrote:

As far as I know,all laser printers use laser diodes that use lasers at all.
Unfortunately they're all IR lasers and not quite as strong as the ones in CD burners but
still around 35mw or so(still watch your eyes). The unfortunate part is that most photo
resists are exposed with UV. If it worked at all it would probably be unusable. I don't know
,have never tried but that's my educated guess.But like I said,the toner from laser printers
would make a nice resist sensitive to burning off with the IR laser diode.The toner is
essentially just plastic that melts nicely to the copper board. If it's 'black' ,it'll burn.-Keith

Don't forget to put yourself on the map!
http://www.frappr.com/pcbgcode

Yahoo! Groups Links

On Friday, September 08, 2006, at 04:25PM, KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

HI John,

Not too much that can be divided, LCD display and 232 IC, perhaps. I've
attached a pix (might get stripped). I just submitted it for the photos
section under KM6VV PCB Router.

Yes, that board is getting kind of full.
There are a few things that might work:

Rotate the LCD 90 deg clockwise, and move the connector outside the 18F..., mount the LCD over the 18F...

Mount the 18F... in a socket and put some components under it.
Use a MAX, er, 235 (can't recall exactly) instead of the 232. It's a couple of dollars more, and a little longer, but doesn't need external caps.
Use less area for mounting holes.
Make a double-sided board.
Use SMDs for some/all parts.

I looked all over and couldn't find a .lbr with an LM386_ in it. Not sure what's going on with that, since the LM386 is used so much.

I did find a schematic (.gif or .jpg) for the MDIII, so it would seem someone should have a .sch floating around for it.

Regards,
JJ

---
Help everyone. If you can't do that, then at least be nice.

As I've been reading bits of this thread, I can't help thinking you're
re-inventing xerography. I think the easiest way to use this lithographic
& etching scheme is done without the added complexity of a CNC machine.
The best implementation of this I've seen is with an actual laser printer.
I have sheets of material that are made for this process. They're not
too expensive.

When I was in high school, we had an UV lightbox we'd place boards into.
We'd creat lithographic masks on acetate and lay those in front of
photo-resist covered copper clad. UV light would cure the traces. Then
the board would be bathed in an etchant. The traces would remain.

There are a lot of these chemical processes. I don't see the milling
processes as optimized for deposition of elements like this. What will be
the advantage?

On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:00:08 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

As I've been reading bits of this thread, I can't help thinking you're
re-inventing xerography. I think the easiest way to use this lithographic
& etching scheme is done without the added complexity of a CNC machine.
The best implementation of this I've seen is with an actual laser printer.
I have sheets of material that are made for this process. They're not
too expensive.

When I was in high school, we had an UV lightbox we'd place boards into.
We'd creat lithographic masks on acetate and lay those in front of
photo-resist covered copper clad. UV light would cure the traces. Then
the board would be bathed in an etchant. The traces would remain.

There are a lot of these chemical processes. I don't see the milling
processes as optimized for deposition of elements like this. What will be
the advantage?

The major problem with most photoetching or even etching is getting
the resist on the board in a graceful manner.

Problem with photoetching is that you need photosensitized boards that
can be expensive. Next problem is exposure and a dense positive.

UV directly on the board can eliminate the need for the dense
positive, if you have the photosensitized board.

If you had something like Kodalith (which is no longer available, I
think), you could make a blue light plotter and create a dense
positive, develop that, and you've got the board master.

Kodalith, when developed in its own developer (two part, mix and use)
is very dense and has a very step contrast curve. Kodalith in dektol,
for instance, has a grayscale.

Otherwise, you're back to toner transfer or mechanical etching. Toner
transfer needs a laser printer and special transfer paper. Mechanical
etching needs a CNC setup.

Harvey

Hi Keith,

keith3125 wrote:

No, toner is plastic based.
You buy some of the paper that releases the toner when dropped in water. This is what we used before milling and after photo printing. Digi-Key sells it. But instead of designing a board and printing it on the paper,you do a full black page. This could get expenisve toner wise because you need to print it 'dark'(of course you don't necessarily need a full 8X11 sheet).You can touch up pin holes if you get them once the paper is fused to the paper
(using a laminator)with a 'sharpie' marker;the laser should burn this as well.I'm not saying this is the most efficient way but it should work. For me,I am now completely invested in using pcb-gcode to cut the board with the results I'm getting,it's the fastest way to prototype for me.

Do you mean the Pulsar toner papers? DigiKey 182-1003-ND <http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/ProductInfo.dll?Site=US&V=182&M=TTS-10> ? These papers merely transfer the toner, you have to print it in a laser printer. Print it entirely black. OK Then burn it. Yes, I want to pursue milling boards as well..

The copper board won't work as paper does in a laser printer...I know...I tried it years ago.
The laser needs a very well regulated supply.My board for the laser you see in the video is about 1/4"X1.5",all SMD.If you don't regulate...pop goes the laser.You have to calculate the current you want and stick a resistor for the proper wattage between the regulator and laser and that's it! Regulators exist with on and off input pins so that's what you use for turning the beam on and off.You may have to 'condition' the input to this input control.Not a very big deal to do.
Again,watch your eyes with these lasers. They can easily blind you...PERMANENTLY!
--- In pcb-gcode@..., KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

What are you using for the regulator? perhaps you could share your circuit? Sounds like a constant current supply could work, perhaps and LM317?


/Luxeon make the L.E.D.s ; not the lasers. Re-read my posts. It's all there : )
/I see a very nice laser on mi-lasers at Ebay that has a pigtailed fiber optic,WITH an /internal /cooler(peltier). He sells these a lot. These are 150mw. Again,the laser you see in the video /is 60mw or a little more depending on the current you pump in.-Keith


I'm afraid I'm a little confused. An LED supplier as well as a Laser supplier were posted. You're using the Laser Diode from a CD burner. What are you doing with the mi-laser?

Guess I'll try to get a Laser diode, and see what can be done with it. There are resist sprays, perhaps they could be sprayed on a board, and exposed with this Laser diode, or even a smaller one.

Do you see any appropriate Laser diodes on bay at this time?

Alan KM6VV

Yes Alan,that is the paper.
There are a myriad of regulators.I happen to use a variable one in that circuit in the video
(it was a TI product,I think the number was 7101 but not positive)The nice thing about
MOST laser diodes is that they will 'fire' at 1.8Volts and guess what,there are tons of fixed
regulators at this voltage. Filter the input with a 10uf cap(this also gives you a slight 'soft
on' voltage but really these higher power lasers aren't to bad with this being the cause of
'popping' one,in my experience) and the output with a .1 cap and you're good to go.Get a
regulator that is called an LDO(low drop-out) and your battery will last longer. The trick is
to be able to supply the current you need with the current necessary for the lasers
threshold current demands. Then the most important component is the resistor that
controls current to the device. Use ohms law to figure that out and make sure that the
wattage is correct for what you need.These are usually very low impedence cause you need
a lot of current but of course because this is a semiconductor,you shouldn't pump in as
much current as is available or again...there goes a diode in the garbage.
Also there are specific driver i.c.s made by many. Do a digi-key search for 'laser driver' or
something like that. When you get to the exact component you're looking at,click on 'tech
specs' usually there's a decent data sheet that thoroughly describes the functioning. If you
get that far and pick a component and need some help,I'll walk you through it.
This is all assuming a lower(100mw or less) diode. When you start getting into the big
daddies(like a half a watt) you need to make sure you can get the current you need(and
also make sure you've bought some protective laser goggles.I view all my first time
experiments with higher power stuff with a camera(the small cameras are all infrared
sensitive) and fire it remotely from a rooms distance.I'm not kidding about this 'going
blind' stuff.
The laser supplier also had the high power UV L.E.D.s we were discussing.
I posted the Luxeon site because you can buy direct(the laser site is from Germany and
you can buy from them too but I just thought it might entail some hoops to jump through
buying high power stuff as an import now a days).
Mi-Laser is a supplier(meredith Instruments in Arizona)that has a 'store' on Ebay.They sell
very expensive stuff fairly reasonably for what the stuff is.(for instance the Laser I
mentioned with the fiber optic attached is a 'Fidel' laser and would cost a bundle new ;he's
selling it for around $69-150,depending on the auction).This laser has a higher
wavelength than I usually encounter however ,so...
Do a search on Ebay for 'high power laser ';something will come up...but not everyday.You
just have to keep at it.
'Sams's' has a nice laser FAQ that will help you as well. Do a search for this.There are
volumes of pages on this site.-Keith

--- In pcb-gcode@..., KM6VV <KM6VV@...> wrote:

Hi Keith,

keith3125 wrote:

No, toner is plastic based.
You buy some of the paper that releases the toner when dropped in water. This is what

we

used before milling and after photo printing. Digi-Key sells it. But instead of designing

a

board and printing it on the paper,you do a full black page. This could get expenisve

toner

wise because you need to print it 'dark'(of course you don't necessarily need a full

8X11

sheet).You can touch up pin holes if you get them once the paper is fused to the paper
(using a laminator)with a 'sharpie' marker;the laser should burn this as well.I'm not

saying

this is the most efficient way but it should work. For me,I am now completely invested

in

using pcb-gcode to cut the board with the results I'm getting,it's the fastest way to
prototype for me.

Do you mean the Pulsar toner papers? DigiKey 182-1003-ND
<http://rocky.digikey.com/scripts/ProductInfo.dll?Site=US&V=182&M=TTS-10>
? These papers merely transfer the toner, you have to print it in a
laser printer. Print it entirely black. OK Then burn it. Yes, I want
to pursue milling boards as well..

The copper board won't work as paper does in a laser printer...I know...I tried it years

ago.

The laser needs a very well regulated supply.My board for the laser you see in the

video is

about 1/4"X1.5",all SMD.If you don't regulate...pop goes the laser.You have to

calculate

the current you want and stick a resistor for the proper wattage between the regulator

and

laser and that's it! Regulators exist with on and off input pins so that's what you use

for

turning the beam on and off.You may have to 'condition' the input to this input

control.Not

a very big deal to do.
Again,watch your eyes with these lasers. They can easily blind you...PERMANENTLY!
--- In pcb-gcode@..., KM6VV <KM6VV@> wrote:

What are you using for the regulator? perhaps you could share your
circuit? Sounds like a constant current supply could work, perhaps and
LM317?


/Luxeon make the L.E.D.s ; not the lasers. Re-read my posts. It's all there : )
/I see a very nice laser on mi-lasers at Ebay that has a pigtailed fiber optic,WITH an /

internal

/cooler(peltier). He sells these a lot. These are 150mw. Again,the laser you see in the

video

/is 60mw or a little more depending on the current you pump in.-Keith


I'm afraid I'm a little confused. An LED supplier as well as a Laser
supplier were posted. You're using the Laser Diode from a CD burner.
What are you doing with the mi-laser?

Guess I'll try to get a Laser diode, and see what can be done with it.
There are resist sprays, perhaps they could be sprayed on a board, and
exposed with this Laser diode, or even a smaller one.

Do you see any appropriate Laser diodes on bay at this time?

Alan KM6VV

Hi John,

Some good ideas! I'll give it some thought. I didn't mention that there is LED display board that is associated with the main board, and they are mounted back to back. I also posed it in the folder.

Alan KM6VV

John Johnson wrote: