Date   
Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

mlmcnc
 

A vacuum table with a leveled top is indeed a good approach. However, that only ensures that the BOTTOM of the board is level. In my experience, not all FR4 is consistent in thickness. Remember that 1oz copper is only 0.0347mm thick. Autolevelling is the only way to track the top surface. If you do this you could use a smaller depth of cut with correspondingly narrower kerf with your V bit.

Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

Bernardc
 

Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….

Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.  Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP. (The problem remains welding ;-)..)

 

Bernard  

 

De : pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] De la part de Rick Obel
Envoyé : lundi 20 août 2018 17:32
À : pcbgcode@groups.io
Objet : Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:

1.       Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.  I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove it, or even adjust it.

2.       I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology).  Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent cut.  I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.  Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.

3.       If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.

Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.

-Rick

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Hi Albert,

 

You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.  I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.  After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.  If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.  I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.  This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.  I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.

 

Sam

Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

Rick Obel
 

I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’ thickness.  As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.  To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10 mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.  (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )

 

I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.  I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting 0.2mm  -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?  Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.  Am I missing something here?  The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.

 

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of Bernardc
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….

Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.  Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP. (The problem remains welding ;-)..)

 

Bernard  

 

De : pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] De la part de Rick Obel
Envoyé : lundi 20 août 2018 17:32
À : pcbgcode@groups.io
Objet : Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:

1.       Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.  I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove it, or even adjust it.

2.       I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology).  Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent cut.  I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.  Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.

3.       If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.

Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.

-Rick

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Hi Albert,

 

You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.  I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.  After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.  If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.  I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.  This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.  I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.

 

Sam

Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

Rick Obel
 

I do not use smd. 

 

From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:05 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’ thickness.  As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.  To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10 mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.  (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )

 

I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.  I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting 0.2mm  -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?  Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.  Am I missing something here?  The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.

 

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of Bernardc
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….

Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.  Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP. (The problem remains welding ;-)..)

 

Bernard  

 

De : pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] De la part de Rick Obel
Envoyé : lundi 20 août 2018 17:32
À : pcbgcode@groups.io
Objet : Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:

1.       Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.  I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove it, or even adjust it.

2.       I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology).  Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent cut.  I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.  Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.

3.       If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.

Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.

-Rick

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Hi Albert,

 

You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.  I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.  After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.  If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.  I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.  This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.  I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.

 

Sam

Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

Rick Obel
 

Sorry for the multiple responses.  I appreciate your suggestions and will give your approach a try.

 

From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:06 AM
To: 'pcbgcode@groups.io'
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

I do not use smd. 

 

From: Rick Obel
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 11:05 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: RE: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

I tried autoleveler and concluded (maybe wrongly) that the PCB board high spots were the result of very minor warpage, not inconsistencies in the materials’ thickness.  As a result, I reasoned, when the autoleveler measures the height, it does so without the benefit of any pressure (mere electrical contact triggers height measurement), but when cutting, a little pressure will force the PCB’s high spots down, with the result that they are not fully cut in those areas.  To remedy that problem, I bought a thick piece of Plexiglas, a vacuum pump and other materials to make my own vacuum board, but then realized that I could get good results, cutting not more than 0.10 mm in two passes of 0.05mm each, by simply leveling my MDF in advance of a days’ cutting.  (I don’t know if it moisture or thermal expansion/contraction, or otherwise, but I find that more than after a few days, the MDF takes on a warp of up to 0.10mm. )

 

I would be very interested to see others’ vacuum boards.  I saw Peter’s earlier comment about success with his vacuum board (table) and his good results cutting 0.2mm  -- he must have meant 0.20 mm, right?  Because 0.2mm is 4 passes at 0.05, and I typically need only 1 pass, and rarely more than two.  Am I missing something here?  The boards I am cutting are usually 4”x6”, and are much more problematic than 2”x3”.

 

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of Bernardc
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:41 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Assume that you not use SMD on your PCB as etching with 0.9 mm….

Autoleveler is perfect to correct the copper default. I use 2 flutes V type 60° dia 0.127 mm with 0.05 mm depth and it is not necessary to make further pass.  Mini = 0.0254, Max = 0.762, Step = 0.0508, Feedrate = 400, Turn = 12000 T/mn. I can etch for SSOP. (The problem remains welding ;-)..)

 

Bernard  

 

De : pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] De la part de Rick Obel
Envoyé : lundi 20 août 2018 17:32
À : pcbgcode@groups.io
Objet : Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

My approach is very similar to Sam’s, but three differences that I believe help:

1.       Immediately before cutting a PCB, I pre-level my sacrifice board, which is MDF.  I believe that the MDF warps over time, even though I rarely remove it, or even adjust it.

2.       I don’t use angled bits (sorry I don’t know the correct terminology).  Instead, I find that conventional end mills produce a cleaner, more consistent cut.  I am still experimenting with diameters, but find 0.6mm breaks easily, while 0.9 is unnecessarily wide.  Lately, I have been using 0.7mm but will focus on 0.8 next.

3.       If the incomplete etching (is that the right word?) is localized, I will re-run just those areas at a deeper depth.

Rarely do I need three passes, and a second pass is only required about half the time.

-Rick

 

From: pcbgcode@groups.io [mailto:pcbgcode@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdmonaco via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 7:56 AM
To: pcbgcode@groups.io
Subject: Re: [pcbgcode] Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks

 

Hi Albert,

 

You might try my single pass etch approach, which I now use for all of my boards.  I setup pcb-gcode to do a singe pass etch for all traces and shapes.  After completion, I inspect the board without removing it from the fixture.  If I see any areas with incomplete etching, I lower my z-axis zero point by 2 mils and re-etch the board with the same gcode file.  I continue with this until I have a nicely etched PCB which usually only takes about 1 to 3 passes.  This approach also corrects most leveling issues as well.  I try to keep my trace widths over 12 mils because each pass will shrink your trace width by about 1 mill for a 30 degree spade bit.

 

Sam

Re: Trouble with my PCB attempts. #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

tsames2008@...
 

Okay, no one actually gave the settings that could have saved me days so I will post what I used to save someone else time and frustration.

while using a .1 mm 30 degree V bit, I used:

Single pass

Isolation Minimum 1.35 mils
(not used) Maximum 6 mils
(not used) Step 1.5 mils

Z Down -4 mils

I used Z Probe for every etching.

Re: Can only get a single isolation pass around tracks #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

peterg1000
 

No problems milling SMD boards so far (picture attached).  Just very tedious to place components by hand and get the right amount of solder.  I use solder past thinned with liquid flux - this is applied using a fine wire pickup loop.  If "vias" are needed I use 1/32" x 1/4" brass rivets, pre - cleaned before inserting in the board.  Solder rivet head side first, then crop to nearly flush and solder this side second.

All tools are zeroed with calibrated touch probe on copper - this is accurate to better than 25 microns (0.001"). Cutting depth fixed at -0.2mm.  Spindle speed set at 18000rpm on 30degree engraving cutter with 0.2mm (.008") wide cutting tip.

Vacuum fixture is milled from hardwood and uses a vane type vacuum pump to pull about - .75bar in normal operation.  More pics attached for interest.

Peter

UnDoo problems #eagle

Vaughn
 

Made a schematic and then tried the board. Gave autoroute a go and got a reasonable board.

Problem is there are areas I have made errors on both the board and schematic. Trying to undo and go back I nowe have a error stating the changes on either will not update the other. e.g. changes on the schematic will not be shown on the board.

Any ideas how to fix this or do I start from scratch?

Thanks Vaughn

Re: UnDoo problems #eagle

Drago
 
Edited

Hi, first of all, you have to check if f/b annotation is active or severed (almost sure is severed), to fix that you have to back to schematic or board (this time just open one of two files) (that error was occurred by changing one file without the another one opened, like adding or deleting parts, changing names and so on) once have you thought returned to active state open the other file to make sure they has.

for more information check this links

http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=238509.0

https://www.lucidar.me/en/eagle/eagle-tutorial-part-3-board-editor/

http://web.mit.edu/xavid/arch/i386_rhel4/help/321.htm

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/176807/eagle-cad-method-of-re-linking-schematic-and-board

Best regards

Re: UnDoo problems #eagle

Harvey White
 

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 01:47:56 -0700, you wrote:

Made a schematic and then tried the board. Gave autoroute a go and got a reasonable board.

Problem is there are areas I have made errors on both the board and schematic. Trying to undo and go back I nowe have a error stating the changes on either will not update the other. e.g. changes on the schematic will not be shown on the board.

Any ideas how to fix this or do I start from scratch?
You must have both the board and schematic open at the same time. Make
changes on the schematic, and the board will follow, ditto with adding
or deleting parts. However, when you rewire something in the
schematic, you will find stubs for former connections. Since you used
the autorouter for everything, just ripup all the tracks (default
ripup) and try again. If you use a ground pour polygon, delete those
polygons first since the autorouter is not happy with existing
polygons, it will not route all the wires in that case. Give it a try
to see if this is the case for your board.

Each time you save the board, you will find that eagle keeps backups
in the form of name.b#n and name.s#n. If you have edited the board
separately from the schematic, then the dates and times of the
existing .brd and .sch file will not match. Go back (.b#1 is the most
recent) and rename name.b#1 (for example) name01.brd, do the same with
the schematic. Open both, and then run consistency checks. You'll
have your work before you made the separate changes. If this doesn't
work, then go back and look at name.b#2, .b#3, etc.

Harvey



Thanks Vaughn

Re: Trouble with my PCB attempts. #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

tsames2008@...
 

Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).  Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.  Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.

 

Re: Trouble with my PCB attempts. #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

Brett Pound
 

your drill sizes are too big, do you have a smaller drill ?  those header pads will struggle to hold together and you'll be relying on solder a lot

Re: Trouble with my PCB attempts. #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

John Johnson
 

Nice looking board! I agree with the hole-size concern.
Looks like you have a sliver (see the arrow), so you might want to try using multiple passes and/or going over the board with an Xacto knife.

On 6 Sep 2018, at 13:08, tsames2008 via Groups.Io wrote:

Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).  Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.  Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.

 

Re: Trouble with my PCB attempts. #eagle #etch #pcbgcode

John Johnson
 

And the arrow…

On 7 Sep 2018, at 7:54, John Johnson wrote:

Nice looking board! I agree with the hole-size concern.
Looks like you have a sliver (see the arrow), so you might want to try using multiple passes and/or going over the board with an Xacto knife.

On 6 Sep 2018, at 13:08, tsames2008 via Groups.Io wrote:

Alright, after almost a month, finally created my first layout using etching, drilling and milling (to cut out the boar).  Now this is my test run to see if everything lines up.  Now that it does, I will increase the depth to fully cut the drill holes out and cut the board out.

 

Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

Leonard Wohlsdorf
 

Hi all, I guess I must be asking a unanswerable question. When I am using my gcode in the  cnc program can  I just rerun a portion of the code again without starting from the beginning? Anyone know if this is possible? Len

Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

Art Eckstein
 

Len,
In my experience, the answer is "maybe" LOL

A lot depends on the controller that your using to run the code. Some will do a decent job of starting in the middle of the code (as long as you don't try restarting in a G02 or G03 code. Start it at a G0 or G1).

From what I have read Mach does not like starting in the middle of the code, but YMMV. Best way to find out is do a test run.

Country Bubba

At 9/13/2018 12:14 PM, Leonard Wohlsdorf wrote:
Hi all, I guess I must be asking a unanswerable question. When I am using my gcode in the cnc program can I just rerun a portion of the code again without starting from the beginning? Anyone know if this is possible? Len

Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

Dan.Staver
 

I have to do this because my Nomad hangs with the latest software driver.
So, I just record the line number it hangs on, go backwards until I find the nearest tool down command, then edit out the gcode file lines in-between. I keep the startup lines at the beginning where it spins up the tool, then delete lines after that until the tool down line I previously mentioned.

Dan

Dan Staver
Tave Tech Corp.
3130 Hollycrest Dr.
Colorado Springs, CO 80920
+1-719-359-5352 - office
+1-719-502-1675 - cell
tavetech - Skype
W3QDO

On Sep 13, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Art Eckstein <art.eckstein@...> wrote:

Len,
In my experience, the answer is "maybe" LOL

A lot depends on the controller that your using to run the code.  Some will do a decent job of starting in the middle of the code (as long as you don't try restarting in a G02 or G03 code.  Start it at a G0 or G1).

From what I have read Mach does not like starting in the middle of the code, but YMMV.  Best way to find out is do a test run.

Country Bubba

At 9/13/2018 12:14 PM, Leonard Wohlsdorf wrote:
Hi all, I guess I must be asking a unanswerable question. When I am using my gcode in the  cnc program can  I just rerun a portion of the code again without starting from the beginning? Anyone know if this is possible? Len




Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

kcress1x@sbcglobal.net
 

Hi Len,

Yes and no. If your G-code is absolute then that would be easily possible because each statement would stand on its own. "Go here" "Do this". However 99% of code generated by other programs use relative moves that use the prior position as a reference. So instead of "Go here" it becomes "Move a little more".

You should be able to see that if you stop G-Code execution, back up a bit and Go the next instruction will likely be "move a little more" from wherever the tool is at right now instead of where it would've been just before reaching that same instruction in normal execution.

What this means is normally, no, you can not just back up and redo.

If you want to do that you need to learn enough about G-Code that you can recognize the absolute moves that are lightly sprinkled about in most G-Code and back up specifically to that point in the code before, "continuing from here".

If there are no absolute moves (rare) then it's easiest to just re-run the entire job.

---Keith---

Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

Leonard Wohlsdorf
 

Thanks to Art, Dan, and Keith for your responces. Why  I asked this question was during a recent board cut I found that a small section did not cut quite deep enough due to the board having a slight low spot. I am experimenting in how close I can cut the just the copper off without losing much FR4. It would be nice if I could find just where my code was describing this area cut and recut at a lower z just in this area. I have been able to use autoleveling with my grblControl program for most of my boards so far and have some nice boards but on this particular board I used a .5mm endmill and had most of the board cut very finely removing just the copper, wow looking good!!! Ooops there was just a small area with contours which did not cut deep enough. Well I set the depth just alittle deeper and reran the whole program which has quite some detail so slowed me down just a bit. I would like to copy the blocks of code that details this area to a small new program then reset. Use my limits switches that set my home position which I use to position my (0,0) at my lower left mounting hole and then recut lowering my z to remove the last bit of copper.
Has anyone tried this? Thanks again, Len

Re: start in middle of program #pcbgcode #gcode

Brett Pound
 

I have edited the output of PCBGCode. It is just text commands at the end of the day, so any text editor can do what you want. You just need to be able to read it, and understand what to do - totally an exercise for the reader :)