Richardson Marina Survey and Lunch, This Thursday


 

If we use a kayak, as bob suggests, we wouldn't need to have a guard Coot to scare the hungry carp away. Thankfully, the Fern Ridge carp aren't the kind that'll jump into your boat trying to get you. <g>

Let's give Bob's idea a try. We should start a bit earlier than the usual Thursday lunch at 1:00. Say 11:00? I'll be there, and we need at least one other Coot to do the job.

It is about a hunnert feet between the main docks. The finger docks aren't aligned with their counterparts on the dock next door, and we'll have to make our own reference points on the inner part of E Dock, where there's only alongside mooring. At least there won't be any boats in the way. <g>

Here's a calibrated satellite image with info to import it into nav programs that can use raster charts. Maybe Mark can get started drawing a map to plot our soundings in. <g>

http://www.coots.org/MapImages/ValleyLakes/

On 9/12/2021 11:27 AM, Bob L wrote:
Good project, John.  After we talked about this, I walked along the marina thinking about what the issues might be.  One thought was that sharp objects might be down there.  Another is that, in places the blue-green algae stuff is showing up, and that should be avoided.
As an alternative, how about if a line was tied to each end of a kayak, about 100 ft long.  The line would have tape marks every 10 ft.   Two people would move the kayak back and forth between docks at the center of each slip.  The line handlers would not go out on fingers.  The kayak guy would have a calibrated pole, of course.  This might be pretty fast and minimum time would be spent learning where the measurement person was at.  The slip numbers obviously set a coordinate system.  I have 100 feet of floating polypropylene line.  Most people must have some of that yellow stuff.  BiMart for sure.  I could bring a kayak on Thursday.    Bob
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Bob Larkin
 

I will bring 100+ feet of poly rope with marks, a kayak and gear, a pole that doesn't float with a tether and markings of depth in feet and tenths.

John, I assume you can get inside the gates (I can come by kayak!).

If we use lines drawn to the center of slips as references, we will be able to get the kayak inside the slips and measure there, to correlate with the existing data.  The docks differ in length, so we will need to improvise at the NE ends, as well as outside of the A-dock and E-docks.  The alignment of the finger docks are pretty good, so sighting along the edge of those might be all that is needed.  We will learn as we go!!


Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi John,

On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 7:20 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:

Here's a calibrated satellite image with info to import it into nav
programs that can use raster charts. Maybe Mark can get started drawing
a map to plot our soundings in. <g>

I'd be glad to help.  Not sure how to use your image for what you want to do, however.  I don't believe I have a program to use that as you intended.  

But I do have a CAD package that will allow me to import an image and scale it to whatever size I want.  So, if you can get me a measured distance between two or more very discernible points in that image, I can draw a line at that distance and then scale the photo by matching it to your points.  Clear as mud, right?

Anyway, I assume you will be measuring along your rope in feet/inches where you take the depth readings.  Plain old x,y,z coordinates. And just a month or so ago, I downloaded a program which will take those coordinates and make a contour map.  Or, at least, I thought that's why I downloaded it. :-)    Just gotta find it on the hard drive someplace.

Here's a thought.  Does the marina have those big brown "poles" driven into the lake bottom to keep the docks in place?  Why not measure up five or six feet from the surface of the water the day you start your survey and mark a line around the pole with some paint, if the marina doesn't mind.  Now, that will be your reference line (datum) for later surveys, and you don't have to rely on the Corps numbers.  Next time you add depths to your database, you just measure the distance from the water to that line and adjust your new depth measurements accordingly.

Mark





 

I'm glad you're willing to help make sense of our soundings, Mark.

I figured you could start working on a map by using a CAD program to trace the docks using the image, perhaps doctoring it up in Paint Shop Pro beforehand to make that easier. The waypoints in the corners of the image are supposed to be a certain distance apart, but converting from degrees of latitude and longitude to feet could be a chore. <g> Easier and more accurate to let us give you some actual measurements. We'll do that for some easily discernible points in the satellite photo. I don't expect the satellite photo to be real accurate about the locations of everything, but the survey isn't gonna be pinpoint accurate either. <g>

Good idea about marking a piling. The Parks Department won't mind because we won't tell them we marked the piling. <g>

On 9/13/2021 6:34 PM, Mark N wrote:
...
I'd be glad to help.  Not sure how to use your image for what you want to do, however.  I don't believe I have a program to use that as you intended.
But I do have a CAD package that will allow me to import an image and scale it to whatever size I want.  So, if you can get me a measured distance between two or more very discernible points in that image, I can draw a line at that distance and then scale the photo by matching it to your points.  Clear as mud, right?
...
Here's a thought.  Does the marina have those big brown "poles" driven into the lake bottom to keep the docks in place?  Why not measure up five or six feet from the surface of the water the day you start your survey and mark a line around the pole with some paint, if the marina doesn't mind.  Now, that will be your reference line (datum) for later surveys, and you don't have to rely on the Corps numbers.  Next time you add depths to your database, you just measure the distance from the water to that line and adjust your new depth measurements accordingly.
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Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi John,

On Monday, September 13, 2021, John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:

Good idea about marking a piling. The Parks Department won't mind because we won't tell them we marked the piling. <g>

You sure you want a guy making your chart when he can't even remember it's a piling? And I didn't even have a beer with dinner. Sheesh... .

Mark


Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi John,

On Monday, September 13, 2021, John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:

Easier and more accurate to let us give you some actual measurements. We'll do that for some easily discernible points in the satellite photo. I don't expect the satellite photo to be real accurate about the locations of everything, but the survey isn't gonna be pinpoint accurate either. <g>

Okay, I brought it into the CAD package to refresh myself on how to do this stuff. Too many years away from it. Anyway, I looked at the image and realized the best measurement would be the distances between the centerline of the ramps at the top. Preferably all five? Someone got a 100 foot tape? Or take a 25 footer and do it in smaller chunks. Even the dock at the boat ramp shows quite clearly, if you want to measure that instead.

Mark


Mark Neuhaus
 

Ooops, I meant at the loading dock, or whatever that smaller L-shaped dock is called.


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 9:35 PM Mark Neuhaus via groups.io <moonlitturtle1934=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Even the dock at the boat ramp shows quite clearly, if you want to measure that instead.


Case Turner
 

Mark,

If you ever get it into cad and you end up with points with elevation that you can export in either .dwg or .dxf format I could pull it into our 3D programs and easily give it the information a surface. So one could see what the bottom looks like. It’s kind of boring if it’s more or less flat but is cool none the less. Heck Andrew Linn could probably take the info and print it with his 3D printer 

Case

Sent from not here

On Sep 14, 2021, at 6:30 AM, Mark Neuhaus <moonlitturtle1934@...> wrote:


Ooops, I meant at the loading dock, or whatever that smaller L-shaped dock is called.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 9:35 PM Mark Neuhaus via groups.io <moonlitturtle1934=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Even the dock at the boat ramp shows quite clearly, if you want to measure that instead.


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Dirt


Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi Case,

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 6:52 AM Case Turner <casesturner@...> wrote:

If you ever get it into cad and you end up with points with elevation that you can export in either .dwg or .dxf format I could pull it into our 3D programs and easily give it the information a surface. So one could see what the bottom looks like. It’s kind of boring if it’s more or less flat but is cool none the less. Heck Andrew Linn could probably take the info and print it with his 3D printer 

Thanks for the offer.  I am using a pretty old version of MicroStation to draw the docks and then should be able to input the data from John.  It's a 3-D CAD package, but I don't know if it handles individual points to make a surface.  I've put in boat station coordinates, drew lines through them, and it gave me crude wireframe images of the boat.  I was able to use two adjacent lines to triangulate points that then flattened those panels so I could make a stitch and glue boat. But that won't do us any good here.  :-)

I was planning to model the surface with Quikgrid from the https://www.galiander.ca/ website.  Not sure if I can then get the contour lines back into OpenCPN.  I'm sure there are programs that will do that.

Mark

  


 

I call the L-shaped dock the "sewage pumpout dock", but I think the County prefers, "courtesy dock". <g>

I've got a 100' tape measure. We'll get you some good reference measurements.

On 9/14/2021 6:29 AM, Mark N wrote:
Ooops, I meant at the loading dock, or whatever that smaller L-shaped dock is called.
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Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi John,

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 2:14 AM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:

I call the L-shaped dock the "sewage pumpout dock", but I think the
County prefers, "courtesy dock". <g>

Nice to know you they don't expect you to be nice on any other dock.  :-)
 
I've got a 100' tape measure. We'll get you some good reference
measurements.

Attached is a PDF from my CAD package of the dock outlines. Is this what you were hoping for?

Mark
 


Bob Larkin
 

Are we fully staffed for tomorrow (Thursday)?  In particular, do we have a second line handler?  Another separate data recorder person would be useful to keep the paper dry.

I plan to have the kayak in the water at 11AM or before. 

I will bring one poly line that is 120 feet long and marked every 10 ft.  The zero point of that line would be arranged to be by the paddler where the measurements are made.  There is some extra line past zero to make that work.

I will bring a 4-ft pole marked in feet and tenths (the same units as depth sounder's have).

We need a second line and paper and???  Is that coming?

Bob


Brian Gage <jamesgage637@...>
 

Bob, I want to help tomorrow too. I Can bring the Folbot 
kayak and possibly another 100' tape if needed. I have no polypropylene rope.
About what time do you leave the park on Thursdays
John? Will we stay till evening hours perhaps? I'll need a parking pass also, Thanks.
B.G.


 

It'll be good to see you in person again, Brian. I'll have a parking pass for you, but I won't arrive until 11:00.

We'll probably be done with the survey work by 4:00, even if the survey isn't completed. Two hours, lunch, and then another couple hours ought to be enough for Ol' Coots. <g> That doesn't mean we can't hang out longer.

On 9/15/2021 11:35 AM, Brian Gage wrote:
Bob, I want to help tomorrow too. I Can bring the Folbot
kayak and possibly another 100' tape if needed. I have no polypropylene rope.
About what time do you leave the park on Thursdays
John? Will we stay till evening hours perhaps? I'll need a parking pass also, Thanks.
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Looks real good, mark. :o)

On 9/15/2021 9:14 AM, Mark N wrote:
... Attached is a PDF from my CAD package of the dock outlines. Is this what you were hoping for?
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Bob Larkin
 

Brian, it would be great to see you.  I have the Pinguino Sport tied to the top of the car, now.  I would guess that to need another boat would require a second group of  people.  Do we have that?  My guess is that we will not e able to support a second boat.

The pulling line (without 10-ft marks) can sink and still work.  The other end with 10-ft marks needs to float, in order to know that it is taught and to see the marks.  The latter floating line I  made up and it is ready to go.  As we learn, we should be able to measure going both ways, using the floating line to pull. 

There are about 25 paths between, say, the A and B docks.  If we measure every 10-ft, that would be about 10 measurements per path.  Including the areas outside of the A and E docks, there are 6 sets of paths.  So, the total number of measurements is about 6 x 25 x 10 = 1500 measurements.  If each took 30 seconds, on the average, it would be about 12 hours.  Some areas might be easy to beat 30 seconds, but not others such as NW of the E dock.   Thoughts?


 

I've got 100' of clothesline, and I'll bring some more line just in case.

I figure we should start with the channels between B & C Docks and C & D Docks, since we know there is/are a shoal(s) there that has/have caused trouble. We'll see how things go tomorrow, but I expect a complete survey will take several days. We can start with the shallow ends and work out, so we don't run out of water too soon. We can always come back in the spring, if we have to.

On 9/15/2021 3:50 PM, Bob wrote:
...
The pulling line (without 10-ft marks) can sink and still work.  The other end with 10-ft marks needs to float, in order to know that it is taught and to see the marks.  The latter floating line I  made up and it is ready to go.  As we learn, we should be able to measure going both ways, using the floating line to pull.
There are about 25 paths between, say, the A and B docks.  If we measure every 10-ft, that would be about 10 measurements per path.  Including the areas outside of the A and E docks, there are 6 sets of paths.  So, the total number of measurements is about 6 x 25 x 10 = 1500 measurements.  If each took 30 seconds, on the average, it would be about 12 hours.  Some areas might be easy to beat 30 seconds, but not others such as NW of the E dock.   Thoughts?
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Brian Gage <jamesgage637@...>
 

Bob, I calculated my fuel cost for tomorrow's round trip at just under $50 gas only + incidentals.
I'm going to save that fifty bucks for a later trip.
Sorry,
B.G.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 3:50 PM Bob Larkin <bob@...> wrote:
Brian, it would be great to see you.  I have the Pinguino Sport tied to the top of the car, now.  I would guess that to need another boat would require a second group of  people.  Do we have that?  My guess is that we will not e able to support a second boat.

The pulling line (without 10-ft marks) can sink and still work.  The other end with 10-ft marks needs to float, in order to know that it is taught and to see the marks.  The latter floating line I  made up and it is ready to go.  As we learn, we should be able to measure going both ways, using the floating line to pull. 

There are about 25 paths between, say, the A and B docks.  If we measure every 10-ft, that would be about 10 measurements per path.  Including the areas outside of the A and E docks, there are 6 sets of paths.  So, the total number of measurements is about 6 x 25 x 10 = 1500 measurements.  If each took 30 seconds, on the average, it would be about 12 hours.  Some areas might be easy to beat 30 seconds, but not others such as NW of the E dock.   Thoughts?


 

Paul B is gonna come for the survey and lunch tomorrow, so we'll have the bare minimum of Coots we'll need. It'd be awfully nice if we had someone to write down the depths as Bob calls them out. It'll be fun figuring out how best to do the survey. :o)

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Although the Devil be the father of lies, he seems, like other great inventors, to have lost much of his reputation by the continual improvements that have been made upon him. (Jonathan Swift)


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Mark Neuhaus
 

Hi John,

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 7:12 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:

Paul B is gonna come for the survey and lunch tomorrow, so we'll have
the bare minimum of Coots we'll need. It'd be awfully nice if we had
someone to write down the depths as Bob calls them out. It'll be fun
figuring out how best to do the survey. :o)

Are there cleats on the end of the finger docks?  If so, tie one end of the measured line to that cleat and stretch it across to the other dock/finger pier, where one Coot will pull it tight.  Then, Bob, or who ever is in the kayak, will pull himself along the rope to the 10 foot mark, drop the pole (maybe with a six or eight inch diameter disk on the end to prevent the pole from sinking into the mud) and call out the reading to the person on the cleated end of the rope, as he has nothing to do at this point.  Then, on to the next 10 foot mark. When he gets to the second finger pier, he paddles the rope to the adjacent pier (i'm assuming there are still boats, some with masts, in the slips) where the rope handler once again takes control of it.  Then he paddles to the other dock to move the rope to the next finger pier on that side unless the recording Coot can walk it over.

No cleats?  And no way to jam a wedge between the pier boards or no other way to anchor the first end of the rope?  Then the first Coot sits on the dock holding tightly with one hand and records the depths on his clipboard with the other. Since Bob is pulling himself across towards Coot #2, the main pull is on that guy.

Or, want to do it with one person someday?  Probably could be done using a couple of water or sand filled milk jugs on the pier and a lightweight marked cord (parachute cord?) or floating line tied between the jugs.  Then the kayaker paddles to the marks and measures.  If he's got a voice recorder on his phone running, he just calls out the measurement and paddles to the next mark. Moves the milk jugs and continues.  Later at home, he transcribes them to paper.

Easy for me to say this while comfortably sitting on my couch, right?  :-)

Mark