Lateeners


 

No info on where these boats sail (Egypt?) but, WOW!

https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL

https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf

https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h

https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ

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Jove Lachman-Curl
 

Very cool,
What are the advantages to the Lateen rig?
What practical considerations have kept it alive?
Tacking seems difficult, but maybe in a place with a daily wind reversal that doesn't matter much for daily use. Reach out, Fish buy, sell, reach home.
-Jove

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:05 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
No info on where these boats sail (Egypt?) but, WOW!

https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL

https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf

https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h

https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ

--
John <jkohnen@...>
There is wisdom in turning as often as possible from the familiar to the
unfamiliar: it keeps the mind nimble, it kills prejudice, and it fosters
humor. (George Santayana)


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Claire Acord
 

Very interesting and lovely John,
I agree with Jove, it would be a great rig for land breeze out in the am, sea breeze home in the pm.
the photographer is apparently in Egypt, Mahmoud Elmokadim, if you belong to flicker it seems you can send him an e-mail....his photo stream does include pyramids, camels and the like.
thanks for sharing this
cheers
Claire


On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:05 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
No info on where these boats sail (Egypt?) but, WOW!

https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL

https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf

https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h

https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ

--
John <jkohnen@...>
There is wisdom in turning as often as possible from the familiar to the
unfamiliar: it keeps the mind nimble, it kills prejudice, and it fosters
humor. (George Santayana)


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A lateen sail can have a great shape for going to windward, like a wing. I think a lateen sail is the most beautiful shape out there. :o) Reason enough to still use them. <g> Tacking is difficult, but lateen sailors will sometimes tack without shifting the sail in tight places and light winds.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=vela%20latina&sort=relevance

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=felucca&sort=relevance

They still race lateen rigged boats, notably in the Canary Islands, with real "racing machines". Watching them tack without lowering the sail is fun:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vela+latina+canaria

and more:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vela+latina+barco

Alan Villiers went on a voyage in a Kuwaiti dhow in the 1930s, to Kenya and back. They didn't change tack often, but when they did it was a strenuous maneuver with the Big sail and yard. His book, Sons of Sinbad, is a goodun!

On 5/11/2021 9:52 AM, Jove Lachman-Curl wrote:
Very cool,
What are the advantages to the Lateen rig?
What practical considerations have kept it alive?
Tacking seems difficult, but maybe in a place with a daily wind reversal that doesn't matter much for daily use. Reach out, Fish buy, sell, reach home.
https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL <https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL>
https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf <https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf>
https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h <https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h>
https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ <https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ>
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink what you don't like, and do what you'd rather not. (Mark Twain)
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Jove Lachman-Curl
 

Fascinating, thanks John.
I was reading that its been shown that a lug rig can actually sail tighter to windward on it's "bad tack". (sail touching the mast) which I find amazing, but I'll trust testing it ove theorizing it every time.
I think I got that info from an interview with John Welsford about his small boat designs such as the SCAMP.
Perhaps the Lateen fails fine on it's "bad tack" despite what one would think.
-Jove

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:40 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
A lateen sail can have a great shape for going to windward, like a wing.
I think a lateen sail is the most beautiful shape out there. :o) Reason
enough to still use them. <g> Tacking is difficult, but lateen sailors
will sometimes tack without shifting the sail in tight places and light
winds.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=vela%20latina&sort=relevance

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=felucca&sort=relevance

They still race lateen rigged boats, notably in the Canary Islands, with
real "racing machines". Watching them tack without lowering the sail is fun:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vela+latina+canaria

and more:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vela+latina+barco

Alan Villiers went on a voyage in a Kuwaiti dhow in the 1930s, to Kenya
and back. They didn't change tack often, but when they did it was a
strenuous maneuver with the Big sail and yard. His book, Sons of Sinbad,
is a goodun!

On 5/11/2021 9:52 AM, Jove Lachman-Curl wrote:
> Very cool,
> What are the advantages to the Lateen rig?
> What practical considerations have kept it alive?
> Tacking seems difficult, but maybe in a place with a daily wind reversal
> that doesn't matter much for daily use. Reach out, Fish buy, sell, reach
> home.

>
>     https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL <https://flic.kr/p/oXbPXL>
>
>     https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf <https://flic.kr/p/p23zEf>
>
>     https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h <https://flic.kr/p/Bofp8h>
>
>     https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ <https://flic.kr/p/vFQQgQ>

--
John <jkohnen@...>
The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink
what you don't like, and do what you'd rather not. (Mark Twain)


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Electri-Cal
 

Those lateeners are great sailors, I have read much about them.  Capt. Jack Aubrey fought one, in one of the books in the Master and Commander series,  Simple to rig, sail, and the boats are very fast.  Having the mast further back and more centered makes it easier to work with, and that is a huge plus with one line to drop it into the hull when the wind does a sudden blow. 

Now all we deed is for some coot to rig this simple set up, so we can see how that works.  Johns skin on frame would take a small lateen, I would think.  If somebody had a Hobie cat, that would also make the Islander or South Pacific version which is a great sailer.  I have a book on the islander versions, like from Tarawa, and down under.  Lots of good plans if some coot got that itch to build one. 

Good ideas sprout anew,   Cal


Jove Lachman-Curl
 

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 6:00 AM Electri-Cal <calboats@...> wrote:
Those lateeners are great sailors, I have read much about them.  Capt. Jack Aubrey fought one, in one of the books in the Master and Commander series,  Simple to rig, sail, and the boats are very fast.  Having the mast further back and more centered makes it easier to work with, and that is a huge plus with one line to drop it into the hull when the wind does a sudden blow. 

Now all we deed is for some coot to rig this simple set up, so we can see how that works.  Johns skin on frame would take a small lateen, I would think.  If somebody had a Hobie cat, that would also make the Islander or South Pacific version which is a great sailer.  I have a book on the islander versions, like from Tarawa, and down under.  Lots of good plans if some coot got that itch to build one. 

Good ideas sprout anew,   Cal


 

I think "can" is the right word, not "will". It probably depends on the cut of the sail, and maybe how it's adjusted. Pearl's balance lug main sailed better to upwind on the "good" tack. She may have been able to point a bit higher on the "bad" rack, but the sail pulled a lot better when it was on the lee side of the mast. With her shallow keel it didn't pay to pinch her anyway.

Other sails have a good and bad tack. Pickle's spritsail goes upwind better on the bad tack, with the sail against the sprit. The sprit-boomed leg o' muttons I've had didn't seem to care much whether they were on the good or bad tack. That's why I think wishbone booms aren't usually worth the complication.

In the days of working sail, boats tended to have big rigs. When a Big lugsail or lateen was pressed up against the mast it could be impossible to lower or reef if the wind picked up. I've read that British fishing lugger sailors were particularly leery of sailing on the bad tack, because they knew, or had heard of, disasters when that didn't go well. With the relatively small sails on out little boats getting the sail down on the bad tack is much less of a concern. John Leathers book, Spritsails and Lugsails (out of print and not cheap), is an excellent source for info on these sails, particularly how they were rigged and used in the British Isles.

https://preview.tinyurl.com/h8w76hu6

or

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&an=leather&tn=spritsails&kn=&isbn=

On 5/11/2021 2:50 PM, Jove wrote:
Fascinating, thanks John.
I was reading that its been shown that a lug rig can actually sail tighter to windward on it's "bad tack". (sail touching the mast) which I find amazing, but I'll trust testing it ove theorizing it every time.
I think I got that info from an interview with John Welsford about his small boat designs such as the SCAMP.
Perhaps the Lateen fails fine on it's "bad tack" despite what one would think.
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. (Mark Twain)
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Phil Bolger designed a simple little boat for a game he invented for young, or young at heart, sailors. The game involved boats chasing each other around, trying to steal flags off the sterns of the other boats. To make things more interesting he used twin leeboards that need to be tended when tacking, and a lateen sail. It looks like the sail can be shifted without lowering it. I think it'd be a beautiful sight to see a fleet of these Pirate Racers under sail, especially if they were built with the fake gunports and the ornamental head. Too bad the head would cost whatever an extra foot of boat adds to the registration fee...

The details of Bolger's simple lateen sail could be used on other boats of a similar size.

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Notice that all those stays and shrouds are running rigging. They wouldn't all be set up when sailing, only those to windward, with the lee ones slacked off so they don't get in the way of the sail. In the photos it looks like they don't bother slacking the lee stays when going upwind with the sail sheeted in tight. I'd worry about what'd happen if I needed to luff the mainsail in a gust. <g> (click on the little curved arrow to get a short URL to share Flickr photos)

https://flic.kr/ps/BSv8f

On 5/12/2021 8:49 AM, Jove wrote:
Good rig details on this one.
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Electri-Cal
 

The running rigging levers are "highfield levers", probably the makers brand.  They are over center self locking , and just over 180 degree throw.  Usually on smaller boats just forward of the winch bases, or thereabouts.  The ones I saw were about 2 feet long, base pivot on deck, and lever rigging hole maybe 8 in. up, giving a 16 in. tightening,lever arm.  When tight there was a pivoting safety that swung over the clip that held the lever securely.  Eric and Susan Hiscock had them on perhaps 3 or 4 boats, this from his books of pre ww 2 cruising, and perhaps  Slocum, someplace in that era anyhow.

Some lateeners had a track abaft the bow, the radius of the sail tack path across the deck.  That was the lever am to help swing the main looong boom around on tacks with the wind up.  Might also have had a 2 part tackle to help swing the boom.  Times like now I recall how well the lapstrake sailed with that simple sprit rig,  Easy to drop sail and sprit boom inside the boat while motoring up to the winds eye.

See you tomorrow, got enough stuff fixed to be safe.  Just changing to all lit rocker switches, those round ones were too hard to see from the helm seat.  Led lights draw so little, and larger rockers in lower easier to see positions will be a good addition.  Got a couple more details, so will be out mid to late morning,

Later,   Cal 


Gerard Mittelstaedt
 

The lateen boats shown are most likely from Egypt. There is a large
lake near the mouth of the Nile River
where these lateen boats are made and used for fishing. It is VERY
shallow there.
Somewhere I saw a LONG detailed Youtube about them... in French.
(sigh) I do not understand much French.
- Gerard Mittelstaedt

I have tried a loose footed lateen on a dingy. Found that it did as
well, or better on the "bad" tack as
on the "good" one where the sail is not rubbing up against the mast.

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 11:00 PM Electri-Cal <calboats@gmail.com> wrote:

The running rigging levers are "highfield levers", probably the makers brand. They are over center self locking , and just over 180 degree throw. Usually on smaller boats just forward of the winch bases, or thereabouts. The ones I saw were about 2 feet long, base pivot on deck, and lever rigging hole maybe 8 in. up, giving a 16 in. tightening,lever arm. When tight there was a pivoting safety that swung over the clip that held the lever securely. Eric and Susan Hiscock had them on perhaps 3 or 4 boats, this from his books of pre ww 2 cruising, and perhaps Slocum, someplace in that era anyhow.

Some lateeners had a track abaft the bow, the radius of the sail tack path across the deck. That was the lever am to help swing the main looong boom around on tacks with the wind up. Might also have had a 2 part tackle to help swing the boom. Times like now I recall how well the lapstrake sailed with that simple sprit rig, Easy to drop sail and sprit boom inside the boat while motoring up to the winds eye.

See you tomorrow, got enough stuff fixed to be safe. Just changing to all lit rocker switches, those round ones were too hard to see from the helm seat. Led lights draw so little, and larger rockers in lower easier to see positions will be a good addition. Got a couple more details, so will be out mid to late morning,

Later, Cal
--
Gerard Mittelstaedt -- mittel48@gmail.com
McAllen, Texas
USA


 

The lateener in the photos just uses tackles, not Highfield levers for the running stays:

https://flic.kr/ps/BSv8f

Running backstays are gone from modern production boats, made obsolete by narrow, high aspect ratio mainsails. But Slocum wouldn't have used Highfield levers on Spray. If they'd been invented yet, they would have only been used on fancy racing yachts in his day.

We think of the lateen sail as something exotic, but there used to be hundreds of lateen rigged boats in the San Francisco and Monterey Bay area. The San Francisco Bay Maritime Museum built a recreation of one a while back. They even put it it a container and sent it to Brittany for the Big classic boat celebrations several years ago:

https://flic.kr/p/fVryDa

These boats were the direct ancestors of the Monterey clipper powered fishing boats. I once compared profile and midsection photos of an old Monterey clipper at Charleston with a lines drawing from Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft. The midsection was just about identical, as was the profile, except for the canoe stern on the Monterey boat.

On 5/12/2021 9:00 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
The running rigging levers are "highfield levers", probably the makers brand.  They are over center self locking , and just over 180 degree throw.  ...
Eric and Susan Hiscock had them on perhaps 3 or 4 boats, this from his books of pre ww 2 cruising, and perhaps  Slocum, someplace in that era anyhow.
...
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Jove Lachman-Curl
 

I've never liked highfield levers ever since I had one pressed into my palm trying to tighten the forestay on a thistle every week for a summer or two,
I don't know why it wasn't made with a bit of a better handle.
image.png


On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:52 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
The lateener in the photos just uses tackles, not Highfield levers for
the running stays:

https://flic.kr/ps/BSv8f

Running backstays are gone from modern production boats, made obsolete
by narrow, high aspect ratio mainsails. But Slocum wouldn't have used
Highfield levers on Spray. If they'd been invented yet, they would have
only been used on fancy racing yachts in his day.

We think of the lateen sail as something exotic, but there used to be
hundreds of lateen rigged boats in the San Francisco and Monterey Bay
area. The San Francisco Bay Maritime Museum built a recreation of one a
while back. They even put it it a container and sent it to Brittany for
the Big classic boat celebrations several years ago:

https://flic.kr/p/fVryDa

These boats were the direct ancestors of the Monterey clipper powered
fishing boats. I once compared profile and midsection photos of an old
Monterey clipper at Charleston with a lines drawing from Chapelle's
American Small Sailing Craft. The midsection was just about identical,
as was the profile, except for the canoe stern on the Monterey boat.


On 5/12/2021 9:00 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
> The running rigging levers are "highfield levers", probably the makers
> brand.  They are over center self locking , and just over 180 degree
> throw.  ...
> Eric and Susan Hiscock had them on
> perhaps 3 or 4 boats, this from his books of pre ww 2 cruising, and
> perhaps  Slocum, someplace in that era anyhow.
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
A man thinks that by mouthing hard words he understands hard things.
(Herman Melville)


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cherrill boissonou
 

Well the guy in the SF bay boat is all by himself! ...unless the crew is sleeping in the hold which might answer the question about # needed to handle the lateen rig.
Earl🧙‍♂️🌝⚓️


On May 14, 2021, at 3:23 PM, Jove Lachman-Curl <jovelc87@...> wrote:

I've never liked highfield levers ever since I had one pressed into my palm trying to tighten the forestay on a thistle every week for a summer or two,
I don't know why it wasn't made with a bit of a better handle.
<image.png>

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:52 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
The lateener in the photos just uses tackles, not Highfield levers for
the running stays:

https://flic.kr/ps/BSv8f

Running backstays are gone from modern production boats, made obsolete
by narrow, high aspect ratio mainsails. But Slocum wouldn't have used
Highfield levers on Spray. If they'd been invented yet, they would have
only been used on fancy racing yachts in his day.

We think of the lateen sail as something exotic, but there used to be
hundreds of lateen rigged boats in the San Francisco and Monterey Bay
area. The San Francisco Bay Maritime Museum built a recreation of one a
while back. They even put it it a container and sent it to Brittany for
the Big classic boat celebrations several years ago:

https://flic.kr/p/fVryDa

These boats were the direct ancestors of the Monterey clipper powered
fishing boats. I once compared profile and midsection photos of an old
Monterey clipper at Charleston with a lines drawing from Chapelle's
American Small Sailing Craft. The midsection was just about identical,
as was the profile, except for the canoe stern on the Monterey boat.


On 5/12/2021 9:00 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
> The running rigging levers are "highfield levers", probably the makers
> brand.  They are over center self locking , and just over 180 degree
> throw.  ...
> Eric and Susan Hiscock had them on
> perhaps 3 or 4 boats, this from his books of pre ww 2 cruising, and
> perhaps  Slocum, someplace in that era anyhow.
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
A man thinks that by mouthing hard words he understands hard things.
(Herman Melville)


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Real shallow, and probably real hot. That lake in Egypt sounds a lot like coastal South Texas. ;o) (My dad was stationed at Corpus Christi during the War)

Thanks for reporting your experience with a loose-footed lateen, Gerard. Experience trumps speculation every time.

Interestingly, the Wikipedia article on lateen sails makes the point that boomed "lateens" like Sunfish sails are actually a variety of South Seas crab claw sail. Wikipedia should never be trusted as an authority, but I agree that Sunfish sails, and others of their ilk, do seem more closely related to South Sea proa sails than Mediterranean and Red Sea lateens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Anson_proa.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateen

On 5/13/2021 9:55 PM, Gerard M wrote:
The lateen boats shown are most likely from Egypt. There is a large
lake near the mouth of the Nile River
where these lateen boats are made and used for fishing. It is VERY
shallow there.
Somewhere I saw a LONG detailed Youtube about them... in French.
(sigh) I do not understand much French.
- Gerard Mittelstaedt
I have tried a loose footed lateen on a dingy. Found that it did as
well, or better on the "bad" tack as
on the "good" one where the sail is not rubbing up against the mast.
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Ah! how delicious it is to turn over and go to sleep again: "just for five minutes." Is there any human being, I wonder, besides the hero of a Sunday-school "tale for boys," who ever gets up willingly? (Jerome K. Jerome)
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I hadn't realized that it's still called a "Highfield lever" even when it's not used for running backstays. Invented by an electrical engineer! <g> Around 1930:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highfield_lever

When me and Earl were out watching the races last night I commented that I thought the proportions of the Thistle mainsail and job were aesthetically just about perfect. Good boats. :o) They sail good and look good. No skinny, high aspect ratio main for them! <g>

On 5/14/2021 3:23 PM, Jove wrote:
I've never liked highfield levers ever since I had one pressed into my palm trying to tighten the forestay on a thistle every week for a summer or two,
I don't know why it wasn't made with a bit of a better handle.
--
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People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them. (Eric Hoffer)
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Good point, Earl. The conditions when that photo was taken weren't very mild either. <g> See the attachment for a shot of an original sailing.

Here's a shot of the Museum's "felucca" and the offspring of the original boats:

https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/sausalito-herring-festival/

And, here's a site about Monterey clippers!

https://montereyclippers.wordpress.com/2016/12/26/feluccas/

On 5/14/2021 4:18 PM, Earl wrote:
Well the guy in the SF bay boat is all by himself! ...unless the crew is sleeping in the hold which might answer the question about # needed to handle the lateen rig.
--
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