Fever Dreams (Design Exercise)


 

Me and John McC have been knocking around the idea of a cheap, simple --
but fast -- sailboat. The longest boat I can keep in my slip at Richardson without jumping to a higher rent bracket is 20', so that's our limit for the design. It's something I've been thinking about off and on for a while, and John has also had a predilection for cheap, simple boats for quite a while.

During the last hot spell John had a "fever dream" about a 20' scow, 4' wide, no rocker in the bottom but raked ends like a "Pogo boat." and sails made out of blue plastic tarps. The boat would be knocked together out of AC plywood, and crudeness in construction and looks would be a "feature" not a "bug." The goal would be to completely shock and awe the Clorox bottle sailors as we storm past them on a reach in something that looks like a sandbox. ;o)

John's initial design had no bottom rocker, and the same bottom rake at each end. It used standing lugsails that were off-the-shelf tarps with no shaping. I think less rake at the stern would be better for speed, and that spritsails would work better with unshaped tarps. The attachment shows my initial, brutally square, idea. If the boat were ever to be built, the bottom rakes would be adjusted to suit the displacement and normal heeling angle...

I think I've convinced John that properly shaped polytarp sails wouldn't spoil the concept much, and maybe even putting some effort into making good foils would be OK. I've also mentioned that real rocker in the bottom might actually be easier to build than trying to make a long, flat bottom. It's a slippery slope... <g>

Anyway... Just for fun, what kind of boat would you design that's just less than 20' long, is cheap and easy to build, goes like stink on a reach and gets to windward fairly well, and is comfortable for old fogeys. Let's stick to monohulls for now.

--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
If the English language made any sense, a catastrophe would be an apostrophe with fur. (Doug Larson, Olympic Gold Medalist)


Electri-Cal
 

Looks good John, I would add some rocker for basic strength of stressed ply.  Let bilge water run to the lowest point for easier cleaning.  Heeled hull shape gives less pounding probably higher speeds on some sail points.  I’d use underlayment ply, as that would be pretty tough, and it is better gluing for marine use, at a good price.  Might not even have to paint that green dyed type. 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Kohnen
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:32 PM
To: Oregon Coots
Subject: [oregoncoots] Fever Dreams (Design Exercise)

 

Me and John McC have been knocking around the idea of a cheap, simple --

but fast -- sailboat. The longest boat I can keep in my slip at

Richardson without jumping to a higher rent bracket is 20', so that's

our limit for the design. It's something I've been thinking about off

and on for a while, and John has also had a predilection for cheap,

simple boats for quite a while.

 

During the last hot spell John had a "fever dream" about a 20' scow, 4'

wide, no rocker in the bottom but raked ends like a "Pogo boat." and

sails made out of blue plastic tarps. The boat would be knocked together

out of AC plywood, and crudeness in construction and looks would be a

"feature" not a "bug." The goal would be to completely shock and awe the

Clorox bottle sailors as we storm past them on a reach in something that

looks like a sandbox. ;o)

 

John's initial design had no bottom rocker, and the same bottom rake at

each end. It used standing lugsails that were off-the-shelf tarps with

no shaping. I think less rake at the stern would be better for speed,

and that spritsails would work better with unshaped tarps. The

attachment shows my initial, brutally square, idea. If the boat were

ever to be built, the bottom rakes would be adjusted to suit the

displacement and normal heeling angle...

 

I think I've convinced John that properly shaped polytarp sails wouldn't

spoil the concept much, and maybe even putting some effort into making

good foils would be OK. I've also mentioned that real rocker in the

bottom might actually be easier to build than trying to make a long,

flat bottom. It's a slippery slope... <g>

 

Anyway... Just for fun, what kind of boat would you design that's just

less than 20' long, is cheap and easy to build, goes like stink on a

reach and gets to windward fairly well, and is comfortable for old

fogeys. Let's stick to monohulls for now.

 

--

John (jkohnen@...)

If the English language made any sense, a catastrophe would be an

apostrophe with fur. (Doug Larson, Olympic Gold Medalist)

 

 

 

 


Richard Green
 

When I “see” the vision of a 20’ long boat with only 4’ of beam I cannot escape the sight of the long, narrow boats of SE Asia which are often poled or sculled.  While it’s true that Viking long ships are sailed they are designed for downwind performance with very limited off the wind potential.  I’d suggest that a 20’ X 4’ boat is not suitable for a lug rig with hopes of some off wind performance without at least one ama.  You could certainly prove me wrong……

Rich


On Aug 9, 2018, at 4:42 AM, Electri-Cal <calboats@...> wrote:

Looks good John, I would add some rocker for basic strength of stressed ply.  Let bilge water run to the lowest point for easier cleaning.  Heeled hull shape gives less pounding probably higher speeds on some sail points.  I’d use underlayment ply, as that would be pretty tough, and it is better gluing for marine use, at a good price.  Might not even have to paint that green dyed type.  
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: John Kohnen
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:32 PM
To: Oregon Coots
Subject: [oregoncoots] Fever Dreams (Design Exercise)
 
Me and John McC have been knocking around the idea of a cheap, simple -- 
but fast -- sailboat. The longest boat I can keep in my slip at 
Richardson without jumping to a higher rent bracket is 20', so that's 
our limit for the design. It's something I've been thinking about off 
and on for a while, and John has also had a predilection for cheap, 
simple boats for quite a while.
 
During the last hot spell John had a "fever dream" about a 20' scow, 4' 
wide, no rocker in the bottom but raked ends like a "Pogo boat." and 
sails made out of blue plastic tarps. The boat would be knocked together 
out of AC plywood, and crudeness in construction and looks would be a 
"feature" not a "bug." The goal would be to completely shock and awe the 
Clorox bottle sailors as we storm past them on a reach in something that 
looks like a sandbox. ;o)
 
John's initial design had no bottom rocker, and the same bottom rake at 
each end. It used standing lugsails that were off-the-shelf tarps with 
no shaping. I think less rake at the stern would be better for speed, 
and that spritsails would work better with unshaped tarps. The 
attachment shows my initial, brutally square, idea. If the boat were 
ever to be built, the bottom rakes would be adjusted to suit the 
displacement and normal heeling angle...
 
I think I've convinced John that properly shaped polytarp sails wouldn't 
spoil the concept much, and maybe even putting some effort into making 
good foils would be OK. I've also mentioned that real rocker in the 
bottom might actually be easier to build than trying to make a long, 
flat bottom. It's a slippery slope... <g>
 
Anyway... Just for fun, what kind of boat would you design that's just 
less than 20' long, is cheap and easy to build, goes like stink on a 
reach and gets to windward fairly well, and is comfortable for old 
fogeys. Let's stick to monohulls for now.
 
-- 
If the English language made any sense, a catastrophe would be an 
apostrophe with fur. (Doug Larson, Olympic Gold Medalist)
 
 

 
 


Dan
 

We have met the enemy, and he is…


Tom Sorensen
 

I'd probably do Gary Dierking's Wa'apa design at the 20ft length.  He shows it built as either a 1 piece 16ft, or a 3 piece 24ft where you can assemble it as either a 16 or a 24 on any particular day.  Be easy enough to interpolate to 20ft as a 1 piece boat.

Tom

On Thursday, August 9, 2018, 6:32:48 AM PDT, Dan <danashore@...> wrote:


We have met the enemy, and he is…


 

I agree that a bit of rocker would be better than perfectly flat panels. In addition to the added stiffness, I think it'd be easier to build a rockered bottom than to try to make a long, flat bottom really flat.

Underlayment plywood is cheap, but much of it doesn't use exterior glue. Dishwasher, or boil, test a sample before using it on a boat. Even if you find some "good" stuff at your big box store, the next shipment they get may be very different, even though they sell it under the same part number. <sigh> AC plywood uses exterior glue, and is available in thicknesses greater than a nominal 1/4". The Fever Dream boat is meant to be a quick and dirty build, and won't be expected to last forever, but it is intended to live in the water for weeks, or even months, at a time.

On 8/9/2018 4:42 AM, Electri-Cal wrote:
Looks good John, I would add some rocker for basic strength of stressed ply.  Let bilge water run to the lowest point for easier cleaning. Heeled hull shape gives less pounding probably higher speeds on some sail points.  I’d use underlayment ply, as that would be pretty tough, and it is better gluing for marine use, at a good price.  Might not even have to paint that green dyed type.
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand. (Mark Twain)


 

Viking longships go to windward fairly well. They use lines and gadgets to keep the sail's luff taut, and the hollow sections above the keel provide pretty good resistance to leeway:

https://vimeo.com/75158660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1XYTZkXA-c

https://vimeo.com/75158660

But a 4' wide Fever Dream boat, even a flat-bottomed one, isn't gonna have a lot of power to carry sail when close-hauled. We're hoping the slipperiness of a long, narrow hull will help it get upwind with a modest sail area. I'm in favor of a large sail area for performance in light breezes, with lots of reefs. <g>

I think a ballast keel would be nice, but it'd add expense and complication to the build. I'd want it to be retractable too, for easy trailering. I've been idly toying with the idea of a fin keel with a concrete ballast bulb, but haven't yet figured out how to cast something reasonably hydrodynamic...

On 8/9/2018 5:50 AM, Rich G wrote:
When I “see” the vision of a 20’ long boat with only 4’ of beam I cannot escape the sight of the long, narrow boats of SE Asia which are often poled or sculled.  While it’s true that Viking long ships are sailed they are designed for downwind performance with very limited off the wind potential.  I’d suggest that a 20’ X 4’ boat is not suitable for a lug rig with hopes of some off wind performance without at least one ama.  You could certainly prove me wrong……
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven, not man's. (Mark Twain)


 

But I said to stick to monohulls "for now." ;o) It's also cheating to use an off-the-shelf design. <g>

I was impressed with the lug-rigged Wa'apa I've seen at the last couple of Palooza Croozas. I think it's probably too wide to fit into my slip at the Mudhole.

In my Fever Dream I imagine sailing along comfortably, with my feet well below my bottom and leaning back with one elbow up on a high coaming of just the right height, kinda like in Pearl. :o)

On 8/9/2018 1:49 PM, Tom S wrote:
I'd probably do Gary Dierking's Wa'apa design at the 20ft length.  He shows it built as either a 1 piece 16ft, or a 3 piece 24ft where you can assemble it as either a 16 or a 24 on any particular day.  Be easy enough to interpolate to 20ft as a 1 piece boat.
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
Self respect: the secure feeling that no one, as yet, is suspicious. (H. L. Mencken)


 

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 20-foot Easy Boat
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 12:56:34 -0700
From: Dave & Nancy Haverstock




Hi John,

   Heat and Travels have kept us away from our moorage. This seems a repeat of last year.

   About the 20-foot boat you mentioned…

   Nancy and I sailed a Geary 18 for about 10-years, at the Coos Bay Yacht Club. It was the most fun boat we have ever had. We really miss her! At Coos Bay, most of the boats were hand built by the skippers, or other members. Ours was one of the Edsel Hodge builds. A very simple, but amazing boat. This is one that should be considered. They are stable and fast.

   Yours, Dave


-- 
John (jkohnen@...)
Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. (Economist Kenneth Boulding)


Dan
 

“Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. (Economist Kenneth Boulding/Cootmaster John Kohnen)

 

Or, maybe a DIY boat designer, who is certain he has not only increased form stability, lateral plane, sail area and weatherliness, while decreasing beam, parasitic drag, and healing moment…yep, a mono hull ‘for now.’

 


 

That's cheating, Dave! ;o) The exercise is to _design_ a cheap, fast boat that'll fit in my slip without upping the rent. But the Flattie could serve as inspiration...

I think it's a real shame that the Flatties fell out of favor. They used to be all over the place, but now I hardly ever see one on Fern Ridge, and I think there are only a couple of racing fleets still active. The Coos Bay Yacht Club doesn't have a Web page anymore, so I can't check if they're still racing them on Tenmile Lakes...

Ted Geary, yes THAT Geary, designed the Flattie back in the 1920s, and those plans were published in Ed Monk's book, How to Build Wooden Boats (as "Flattee"). It's an interesting design, using a stiff full length backbone consisting of two deep parallel boards on each side of the centerboard slot. This gives the shallow hull stiffness to resist the stresses of the "modern" high-strung marconi knockabout rig. The boats originally used a single plank for each side, and the bottom was planked crosswise, like a sharpie. Geary seems to have taken inspiration from New Haven sharpies, which also used a hefty backbone similar to the Flattie's. Later, Flatties were built out of plywood, and then fiberglass. But newer, more fashionable classes came along and the Flattie faded away. <sigh>

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3201

https://cwb.org/exhibits/geary-sailboat-flattie/

On 8/9/2018 3:21 PM, Dave H wrote:
...
   About the 20-foot boat you mentioned…
   Nancy and I sailed a Geary 18 for about 10-years, at the Coos Bay Yacht Club. It was the most fun boat we have ever had. We really miss her! At Coos Bay, most of the boats were hand built by the skippers, or other members. Ours was one of the Edsel Hodge builds. A very simple, but amazing boat. This is one that should be considered. They are stable and fast.
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. (Abraham Lincoln)


 

Some Flattie/Geary 18s racing...

Flatties lack a comfortable backrest for an old fogey skipper, and they look too much like a typical sailboat to suit John McC. ;o) From a distance a Flattie doesn't look all that different from a Thistle or Lido 14, or any other fractional sloop...

--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
The problem in our country isn't with books being banned, but with people no longer reading. ... You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them. (Ray Bradbury)


 

The Fever Dream idea we're playing with doesn't have to be narrow, but I think John McC (a purfeshunal boat designer, BTW, Applegate Boatworks) cringes at the thought of making it wider than the width of one plywood sheet because that'd waste plywood. <g> The design brief is just for a boat under 20' that's cheap, easy to build, fast on a reach, goes to windward well enough (but isn't expected to pass the Clorox bottles upwind), and is comfortable for old fogeys. Crude and/or unconventional appearance would be a "feature" not a "bug." <g>

The exercise is meant to be fun, and your Fever Dream doesn't have to be the same as us Johns'. Cross-fertilization of ideas is good for all. But in defense of narrow boats...

There's a long history of speedy narrow sailboats. They don't have a lot of power to carry sail, but don't need a lot of sail to get up and go. Some unballasted examples of fast narrow-flat-bottomed craft are the New Haven sharpies and Chesapeake Bay double-ended crab skiffs. Though working boats, both the sharpies and crab skiffs were also raced, and some examples were built just for racing. The attachments show a couple of crab skiffs measured by Chapelle. The first one is from American Small Sailing Craft and the other from his booklet on Chesapeake crabbing skiffs.

Phil Bolger took inspiration from the Chesapeake Bay double-ended skiffs when he designed his Surf and Zephyr:

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/surf-crabskiff---15-6-x-3-7

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/zepher

Is it a coincidence that the Deal skiff carries a 59 sq. ft. sprit-boomed leg o' mutton, like Bolger used on many of his Instant Boats? <g> Of course most of Bolgers sharpie designs are also narrow for their length.

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/sailing

If you add external ballast you can get more power to carry sail in a narrow boat, but you still don't need much to go fast. A famous example is Ray Hunt's 110. It has an almost flat, shallow arc bottom and plumb sides, like a "Bolger box." Bolger worked for Hunt for a while. Coincidence? <g> See attachment (from the 1988 110 Class yearbook), and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_110

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3041

http://classicsailboats.org/portfolio-view/c-raymond-hunt-international-110/

I found this racy little keelboat for amateur builders in an old magazine:

http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf

I've learned to like the feel of a keelboat, and I think a narrow Fever Dream with a ballasted fin keel would be fun, but a retracting ballast keel would add to building expense and complication. <sigh> Splinter, and Bolger's "His & Hers" schooner give some ideas for how to handle the retracting:

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/single-hand-schooner

Lead is fun to play with (when's the casting party, Andrew? <g>), but expensive. Concrete is about an eighth the density of lead, but cheap. How about a ballast bulb of concrete? For a mold, make a miniature plywood boat in some hydrodynamic form, with an open top. Stick the fin into it and fill with sand concrete and trowel the top off flat. The flat top of the bulb would act as an endplate for the fin, allowing for shallower draft. :o) The "mold" could stay, perhaps with a plywood top added, to give the concrete some protection from bumps and scrapes...

On 8/9/2018 9:30 PM, Dan from Almostcanada wrote:
“Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. (Economist Kenneth Boulding/Cootmaster John Kohnen)
Or, maybe a DIY boat designer, who is certain he has not only increased form stability, lateral plane, sail area and weatherliness, while decreasing beam, parasitic drag, and healing moment…yep, a mono hull ‘for now.’
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
To make a contented slave, it is necessary to make a thoughtless one. It is necessary to darken his moral and mental vision, and, as far as possible, to annihilate the power of reason. (Frederick Douglass)


Electri-Cal
 

Fin Keel thought

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

Let’s see !!  An open mould for the shape, for starters.  Inside that  outer plywood mould  there is room to add a bottom plate, with headed bolts, washers, and nuts sticking up say 6 inches.  Lay a layer of sash weight iron, or 1 inch rebar spaced 1 inch up from the base that plate.  Fill with the harder type of concrete just in case.  Maybe a webbing of rebar world be enough to hold it in place.

 

The top “bulb” part is much the same with a matching ply top part to hold the fin deep in the concrete with side pins of rebar.  Just to be safe I would add say a half dozen pieces of pipe threaded steel that clamp the whole thing together, the bulb about maybe a foot apart or whatever your weight tables suggest.

 

End result is a plywood sandwich, with steel and concrete as a bonding agent.  In fact I’d probably use a cut steel plate so it all hangs together in case of grounding.  Just use a 4 part tackle to haul it vertically to trailer, a simple drop keel thing.

 

Just ideas, of course  ----  Cal

 

 

 

 

 

From: John Kohnen
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 7:20 PM
To: oregoncoots@groups.io
Subject: Re: [oregoncoots] Fever Dreams (Design Exercise)

 

The Fever Dream idea we're playing with doesn't have to be narrow, but I

think John McC (a purfeshunal boat designer, BTW, Applegate Boatworks)

cringes at the thought of making it wider than the width of one plywood

sheet because that'd waste plywood. <g> The design brief is just for a

boat under 20' that's cheap, easy to build, fast on a reach, goes to

windward well enough (but isn't expected to pass the Clorox bottles

upwind), and is comfortable for old fogeys. Crude and/or unconventional

appearance would be a "feature" not a "bug." <g>

 

The exercise is meant to be fun, and your Fever Dream doesn't have to be

the same as us Johns'. Cross-fertilization of ideas is good for all. But

in defense of narrow boats...

 

There's a long history of speedy narrow sailboats. They don't have a lot

of power to carry sail, but don't need a lot of sail to get up and go.

Some unballasted examples of fast narrow-flat-bottomed craft are the New

Haven sharpies and Chesapeake Bay double-ended crab skiffs. Though

working boats, both the sharpies and crab skiffs were also raced, and

some examples were built just for racing. The attachments show a couple

of crab skiffs measured by Chapelle. The first one is from American

Small Sailing Craft and the other from his booklet on Chesapeake

crabbing skiffs.

 

Phil Bolger took inspiration from the Chesapeake Bay double-ended skiffs

when he designed his Surf and Zephyr:

 

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/surf-crabskiff---15-6-x-3-7

 

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/zepher

 

Is it a coincidence that the Deal skiff carries a 59 sq. ft.

sprit-boomed leg o' mutton, like Bolger used on many of his Instant

Boats? <g> Of course most of Bolgers sharpie designs are also narrow for

their length.

 

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/sailing

 

If you add external ballast you can get more power to carry sail in a

narrow boat, but you still don't need much to go fast. A famous example

is Ray Hunt's 110. It has an almost flat, shallow arc bottom and plumb

sides, like a "Bolger box." Bolger worked for Hunt for a while.

Coincidence? <g> See attachment (from the 1988 110 Class yearbook), and:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_110

 

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3041

 

http://classicsailboats.org/portfolio-view/c-raymond-hunt-international-110/

 

I found this racy little keelboat for amateur builders in an old magazine:

 

http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf

 

I've learned to like the feel of a keelboat, and I think a narrow Fever

Dream with a ballasted fin keel would be fun, but a retracting ballast

keel would add to building expense and complication. <sigh> Splinter,

and Bolger's "His & Hers" schooner give some ideas for how to handle the

retracting:

 

http://www.mcssl.com/store/hhpaysoncompany/instant-boat-plans/single-hand-schooner

 

Lead is fun to play with (when's the casting party, Andrew? <g>), but

expensive. Concrete is about an eighth the density of lead, but cheap.

How about a ballast bulb of concrete? For a mold, make a miniature

plywood boat in some hydrodynamic form, with an open top. Stick the fin

into it and fill with sand concrete and trowel the top off flat. The

flat top of the bulb would act as an endplate for the fin, allowing for

shallower draft. :o) The "mold" could stay, perhaps with a plywood top

added, to give the concrete some protection from bumps and scrapes...

 

On 8/9/2018 9:30 PM, Dan from Almostcanada wrote:

> “Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite

> world is either a madman or an economist. (Economist Kenneth

> Boulding/Cootmaster John Kohnen)

>

> Or, maybe a DIY boat designer, who is certain he has not only increased

> form stability, lateral plane, sail area and weatherliness, while

> decreasing beam, parasitic drag, and healing moment…yep, a mono hull

> ‘for now.’

 

--

John (jkohnen@...)

To make a contented slave, it is necessary to make a thoughtless one. It

is necessary to darken his moral and mental vision, and, as far as

possible, to annihilate the power of reason. (Frederick Douglass)

 

 

 

 


 

I skipped the details about reinforcing and attaching the concrete bulb to the fin, and probably adding some steel and/or iron to the mix. Thanks for your ideas on that part.

Splinter uses a 3/8" steel plate for its fin, holding a lead bulb of about 200#. The Splinter details are interesting. It has a couple of sheaves in the CB case to make lifting the keel easier. I think UHMW strips screwed to the fore and aft case posts, and maybe the case sides, would do the job about as well. I was thinking about using wood over 1" thick so it could be hydrodynamically shaped... The swept back fin is not only racy, it also lets you use a mast to hoist the fin.

To get the same weight as Splinter's lead bulb using pure concrete, using the same shape, the maximum diameter would have to be 14 1/2 inches! A concrete bulb would be pretty bulky. Adding iron to the mix would help. With a plywood mold that stays as part of the keel one wouldn't have to worry about odd old nuts and bolts and boiler punchings (who punched boilers nowadays? <g>) added for weight getting exposed at the surface of the concrete.

http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf

On 8/12/2018 1:47 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
Fin Keel thought
*Let’s see !!  An open mould for the shape, for starters.  Inside that  outer plywood mould  there is room to add a bottom plate, with headed bolts, washers, and nuts sticking up say 6 inches.  Lay a layer of sash weight iron, or 1 inch rebar spaced 1 inch up from the base that plate. Fill with the harder type of concrete just in case.  Maybe a webbing of rebar world be enough to hold it in place.*
**
*The top “bulb” part is much the same with a matching ply top part to hold the fin deep in the concrete with side pins of rebar.  Just to be safe I would add say a half dozen pieces of pipe threaded steel that clamp the whole thing together, the bulb about maybe a foot apart or whatever your weight tables suggest.*
**
*End result is a plywood sandwich, with steel and concrete as a bonding agent.  In fact I’d probably use a cut steel plate so it all hangs together in case of grounding.  Just use a 4 part tackle to haul it vertically to trailer, a simple drop keel thing.*
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
If Heaven had looked upon riches to be a valuable thing, it would not have given them to such a scoundrel. (Jonathan Swift)


 

Poking around in my collection of digital and digitized boat plans I stumbled upon another skinny keelboat. This one actually has an option for a concrete keel "bulb", and suggestions on how to make it. The keel is a 1/4" steel plate with a chunk of concrete riveted to each side. The mold has the inside part of the concrete on the bottom, so it's flat, and the contours are worked into the concrete at the top of the mold. Unlike molten lead, concrete can be worked into humps before it sets. The rounded edges are formed with concave pieces of sheet metal. Kinda clever. The concrete is reinforced with hardware cloth:

http://www.boat-links.com/images/missile.pdf/

On 8/13/2018 5:13 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
...
To get the same weight as Splinter's lead bulb using pure concrete, using the same shape, the maximum diameter would have to be 14 1/2 inches! A concrete bulb would be pretty bulky. Adding iron to the mix would help. With a plywood mold that stays as part of the keel one wouldn't have to worry about odd old nuts and bolts and boiler punchings (who punched boilers nowadays? <g>) added for weight getting exposed at the surface of the concrete.
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
Ah! how delicious it is to turn over and go to sleep again: "just for five minutes." Is there any human being, I wonder, besides the hero of a Sunday-school "tale for boys," who ever gets up willingly? (Jerome K. Jerome)


Joe Novello
 

When I was a kid growing up in San Francisco there was a group of “old guys” that sailed a boat called a “Zepher”. I actually had one number 13. Yeah, it lived up to the haunts of the number.  The Zepher was a 20 foot version of the 110 sailboat. Everything was reduced proportionately, I think it was only three feet wide, with a 150 pound bulb keel on a steel plate and Snipe sails.  

It sound like it might fit the bill here.  

Has anyone heard of the Zepher or know where I might find plans for one?


Joe



On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 10:15 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
Poking around in my collection of digital and digitized boat plans I
stumbled upon another skinny keelboat. This one actually has an option
for a concrete keel "bulb", and suggestions on how to make it. The keel
is a 1/4" steel plate with a chunk of concrete riveted to each side. The
mold has the inside part of the concrete on the bottom, so it's flat,
and the contours are worked into the concrete at the top of the mold.
Unlike molten lead, concrete can be worked into humps before it sets.
The rounded edges are formed with concave pieces of sheet metal. Kinda
clever. The concrete is reinforced with hardware cloth:

http://www.boat-links.com/images/missile.pdf/

On 8/13/2018 5:13 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
> ...
> To get the same weight as Splinter's lead bulb using pure concrete,
> using the same shape, the maximum diameter would have to be 14 1/2
> inches! A concrete bulb would be pretty bulky. Adding iron to the mix
> would help. With a plywood mold that stays as part of the keel one
> wouldn't have to worry about odd old nuts and bolts and boiler punchings
> (who punched boilers nowadays? <g>) added for weight getting exposed at
> the surface of the concrete.
>
> http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Ah! how delicious it is to turn over and go to sleep again: "just for
five minutes." Is there any human being, I wonder, besides the hero of a
Sunday-school "tale for boys," who ever gets up willingly? (Jerome K.
Jerome)




--
Joe Novello


 

I've scoured the Interweb and my collection of boat plans but couldn't find a "Zepher" class or plan. The only "Zephyr" class I can find is Down Under, and not at all like a 110. Your description sounds very much like the "Splinter" I found in an old How to Build 20 Boats I borrowed from John McC:

http://www.boat-links.com/images/Splinter.pdf

On 8/14/2018 7:36 AM, Joe Novello wrote:
When I was a kid growing up in San Francisco there was a group of “old guys” that sailed a boat called a “Zepher”. I actually had one number 13. Yeah, it lived up to the haunts of the number.  The Zepher was a 20 foot version of the 110 sailboat. Everything was reduced proportionately, I think it was only three feet wide, with a 150 pound bulb keel on a steel plate and Snipe sails.
It sound like it might fit the bill here.
Has anyone heard of the Zepher or know where I might find plans for one?
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
Any man-made code could be broken by a woman. (Agnes Meyer Driscoll, pioneering US Navy cryptographer)


 

Claire up in the TSCA Puget found it! I wonder why it didn't turn up in my search of the Interweb... Isn't "Zephyr" spelled "Zeffer"? ;o)

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5423

"Our friend Tito sailed one for years in the Oakland estuary...more about Tito follows, and link to Zephyr specs is below that, the Tom referred to in the article was Tom Wiley, who also designed Wiley Wabbit, nice fast MORA boats...

"1969, Tom started working on his first design, a 24-ft Bay boat that he wanted to go upwind well in a breeze and still be fun and fast downwind. With the help of friends like Robert Flowerman, Tom coldmolded the hull in a barn in Davenport. He then moved the project up to Tito Rivano's shop at the Pacific Marina Boatworks in Alameda. "We worked out a trade," Tom says. "I got to use Tito's shop rent-free in exchange for letting him build a mold and produce the boat in fiberglass."

http://www.wyliecat.com/about/about_tom.html

On 8/14/2018 7:36 AM, Joe N wrote:
When I was a kid growing up in San Francisco there was a group of “old guys” that sailed a boat called a “Zepher”. I actually had one number 13. Yeah, it lived up to the haunts of the number.  The Zepher was a 20 foot version of the 110 sailboat. Everything was reduced proportionately, I think it was only three feet wide, with a 150 pound bulb keel on a steel plate and Snipe sails.
It sound like it might fit the bill here.
Has anyone heard of the Zepher or know where I might find plans for one?
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin. (Charles Darwin)


 

At 4'10" on a 20' length, the Zephyr is quite a bit wider for its length than a 110. But then you don't need to use a hiking board to keep it on it's feet like Splinter. ;o)

BTW, John McC has decided that for an unballasted 20' Fever Dream scow would be better at 5' beam, and a pile of 3' long plywood offcuts be damned! <g> He said he thinks that with three husky young lads aboard it'd handle 200 sq. ft. of sail. I reminded him that the original idea was for a boat that can be sailed by two old fogeys, and that we want to blast past the Clorox bottles while sitting back comfortably with a drink in one hand. ;o)

I'm still intrigued by a 4' wide Fever Dream with a ballast fin keel...

On 8/15/2018 9:18 PM, I wrote:
... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5423
...
--
John (jkohnen@boat-links.com)
I never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong. (Charles Schulz)