Date   
Re: [MessaboutW] Waaa! -- Can't do EXEL so can't do download

Bob Miller
 

Use Google Sheets. Free online. Will read Excel.

Bob

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 3:37 PM, John Kohnen jkohnen@... [MessaboutW] <MessaboutW@...> wrote:
 

You need to have a spreadsheet program installed to use the spreadsheet.
If you don't like Micro$oft you can use the free Open Office. That's
what I use, then convert the spreadsheet to Excel format for those of
you stuck using M$ Office.

https://www.openoffice.org/

And the spreadsheet:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MessaboutW/files/Boat%20Design/

There may be a flaw in the formula used in the Ash Breeze article.
Plotting a curve of several speed/power calculations using the formula
produces a curve that appears to me to steepen too late and too little.
I'm gonna do some research to see what's going on...

On 10/2/2017 3:16 PM, Cal wrote:
>
>
> Hey, John, can you save a copy of the calcs for later hand off ??  I
> never activated excel, so I will need to find a hard copy from a
> different source.
>
>

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower. (Albert Camus)


Re: [MessaboutW] Web back in Town -- Yea !!!

 

If you get to Florence by late in the morning Sunday you might catch us in time to do some boating. Call me on my cell phone (number in the Coot Contact List) if you're coming.

Triangle Lake is real nice this time of year, when the ski boats are all in bed. <g> A good place for electric boat trials. It's even a nice drive out there. Lane County says you need a Parks pass to use the Triangle Lake launch ramp. $4 unless you've got the yearly pass.

https://aol.research.pdx.edu/lakes/17100206000577

On 10/2/2017 3:09 PM, Cal wrote:
Several days without internet sucks.  Good to have cootly access.  Going to the coast might happen on Sunday, but then everybody is packing up to go.  Myles and I are talking about that now.  Sat. is booked, sadly. Next week could be a good time to check out the fall colors, how about Triangle lake, never been there.  Freeway lake too thin for my boat, hum ?? Probably Myles and I are open to a different water way, try us.   As my ex- boss said " do Something, even if its wrong you are learning!!"
...
--
John (@Jkohnen)
The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. (James D. Nicoll)

Re: [MessaboutW] Waaa! -- Can't do EXEL so can't do download

 

You need to have a spreadsheet program installed to use the spreadsheet. If you don't like Micro$oft you can use the free Open Office. That's what I use, then convert the spreadsheet to Excel format for those of you stuck using M$ Office. <g>

https://www.openoffice.org/

And the spreadsheet:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MessaboutW/files/Boat%20Design/

There may be a flaw in the formula used in the Ash Breeze article. Plotting a curve of several speed/power calculations using the formula produces a curve that appears to me to steepen too late and too little. I'm gonna do some research to see what's going on...

On 10/2/2017 3:16 PM, Cal wrote:
Hey, John, can you save a copy of the calcs for later hand off ??  I never activated excel, so I will need to find a hard copy from a different source.
--
John (@Jkohnen)
Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower. (Albert Camus)

Waaa! -- Can't do EXEL so can't do download

lendercal@...
 

Hey, John, can you save a copy of the calcs for later hand off ??  I never activated excel, so I will need to find a hard copy from a different source.


Thanks,  cal 

Web back in Town -- Yea !!!

lendercal@...
 

Several days without internet sucks.  Good to have cootly access.  Going to the coast might happen on Sunday, but then everybody is packing up to go.  Myles and I are talking about that now.  Sat. is booked, sadly.  Next week could be a good time to check out the fall colors, how about Triangle lake, never been there.  Freeway lake too thin for my boat, hum ?? Probably Myles and I are open to a different water way, try us.   As my ex- boss said " do Something, even if its wrong you are learning!!" 


This week end is a funeral we need to do, the founder of Marshalls  heating etc., a great guy -- but he went as we all do.  Best rememberences for a good person.


Yea !!  online again,  Cal 





Re: [MessaboutW] Re: Coast Messabout October 6-8th

 

The Weatherman is promising beautiful weather for the weekend. :o) There's good food a short walk from the campground and marinas. Should be a fun messabout!

http://www.coots.org/mb/Coast/

There are vacant slips at the marina if you haven't signed up for one yet.

On 10/2/2017 11:17 AM, Bob L wrote:
I am signed up for the F dock for next Saturday (night of Oct 7).   I did this by phone, and the lady (Joyce?) was most helpful.  She sent an email confirmation.
So, I plan to go over Sat morning and come back to the Valley Sunday afternoon.  I looking forward to getting to know the Siuslaw R from Wave Guide.
--
John (@Jkohnen)
No spring nor summer beauty hath such grace as I have seen in one autumnal face. (John Donne)

Re: Coast Messabout October 6-8th

boblark@...
 

I am signed up for the F dock for next Saturday (night of Oct 7).   I did this by phone, and the lady (Joyce?) was most helpful.  She sent an email confirmation.

So, I plan to go over Sat morning and come back to the Valley Sunday afternoon.  I looking forward to getting to know the Siuslaw R from Wave Guide.

Thanks for the info, John.

Bob L.
Corvallis

Electric Boat Speeds

 

There has been a good series on "simplified" small boat design in The Ash Breeze, the TSCA magazine. In the latest issue they tackle figuring out how fast the boat you're designing will go. To show how enlightened the TSCA is becoming, they even include motors! :o) But they don't mention planing powerboats. <g>

There's a relatively simple formula for calculating potential boat speed from the waterline length, weight and power available. It works pretty well whether the power comes from the wind, the work of a rowing Coot, or an engine or motor of some kind. The formula ignores many other design factors, like wetted surface, prismatic coefficient, and so on, but gives you a ballpark idea of how fast your boat could go.

I put together a little spreadsheet, customized for electric boats, to do the calculations for you. Please let me know if it works OK. I've uploaded the spreadsheet in both Open Office and M$ Excel formats:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MessaboutW/files/Boat%20Design/

Dave Gerr goes into much more detail than the Ash Breeze article, and covers planing boats, in his book on propellers:

http://smile.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071381767/themotherofal-20

--
John (@Jkohnen)
If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin. (Samuel Adams)

New file uploaded to MessaboutW

MessaboutW@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the MessaboutW
group.

File : /Boat Design/DispBoatSpeedCalc.ods
Uploaded by : jhkohnen <@Jkohnen>
Description : Open Office Calc spreadsheet for calculating potential displacement electric boat speed from waterline length, displacement, current draw in amps, and voltage.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MessaboutW/files/Boat%20Design/DispBoatSpeedCalc.ods

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398

Regards,

jhkohnen <@Jkohnen>

Coast Trip Highlights (inc. boatbuilding project launch)

 

Terry L's friend Ted in Charleston finally launched his Chesapeake Bay Flattie sloop. I saw it sitting on the mud at Ted's dock just a little way up Joe Ney Slough from the Charleston shipyard. That's just what Ted built it to do, and it's why he chose a flat-bottomed design (the V you see in the photos is only in the stern). During a dry-land messabout in the Bay Area years ago we visited Ted's shop and saw the flattie getting its bottom. I'm pleased to see that Ted got her into the water. Now he's gotta get it rigged and sailing. <g>

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen/albums/72157688980435556

Cap'n Clueless phoned me the other day to tell me about a neat old double-ended troller that's at a dock about 8 miles up the Smith River. I went looking for it and found a really nice little RV park and marina. The Smith River RV Park & Marina is its name. "Where quiet campers come to stay." They keep it quiet by not putting a sign up on the highway. <g> The manager wasn't there so I couldn't get down to his private dock to see the troller, but I talked to a friendly camper, John. Most of the clientele have been coming back to the place for years -- some of them decades. Right now they're all fishermen, so there's a lot of lying going on. <g> The owner of the place has the collecting disease, and there's some interesting old machinery lying around (Cap'n Clueless says the owner has another property somewhere with more interesting treasures stored on it). Apparently there's an old Coast Guard boat tied up near the troller. Alas, I neglected to take any photos (too busy jawing). They don't have a real Web page:

http://smithriverrvparkandmarina.blogspot.com/

Here you can see them on a map or satellite view:

https://goo.gl/maps/i9CBPCiwFfm

8451 Lower Smith River Road
smithriverrvparkandmarina at gmail.com
541-707-0841

The launch ramp is only usable at high tide, but there are docks usable all the time. There are only 16 RV sites. The place is worth further study. I've never explored the Smith River, and the Smith River RV Park & Marina might be a good base. It's a real nice spot. If we did a messabout there we'd want to do when the salmon aren't running. <g>

It was a good trip to the Coast. :o)

--
John (@Jkohnen)
I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. (Dudley Field Malone)

Re: [MessaboutW] Coast Messabout October 6-8th

 

I was off to the Coast, Bob, but now I'm back. I had a good lunch at Griff's in Winchester Bay, met some nice people, and saw some interesting boats. I even found a little part for Pearl at Englunds! :o)

I stopped by the Port of Siuslaw campground and marinas. The campground sites with all the amenities for motorhomes were pretty full, but there were some vacancies. The tent sites were mostly unused, and there were a few trailers there, so they may have been putting vehicle campers who didn't need electricity over there. I think they can fit some Coots in somewhere.

The lady in the office was very nice and helpful. The recreational docks were pretty full of aluminum fishing boats, but she said the salmon season is winding down and a lot of boats that had been there for a few months were pulling out today. She thought there would be room for us next weekend. But I reserved a slip anyway. <g> There was a $10 reservation fee! I was hoping they wouldn't charge that if I was right there in the office making the reservation. <sigh> $10 or take your chances? <shrug>

Docks F and G are concrete and behind a locked gate. Dock E is wooden and has no gate. It's also right next to the launch ramp, so you might be awakened by earlybird fishermen. <g> Dock E slips are $12 a night. Dock F slips are $13 and have water (IIRC) -- that's where Lazy Jack will be. Dock G slips are $15 and have water and electricity (again IIRC). Recreational boats can moor in the commercial docks, where electricity and water are available, but no gate. I don't remember the rate, but it's less than $15. All rates are for boats under $20'.

Details and contact info in the Port pages linked to from the Coots page for the messabout:

http://www.coots.org/mb/Coast/

Some pictures:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen/albums/72157688980435556

On 9/30/2017 12:07 PM, Bob L wrote:
John, you are probably off to the Coast.  But, I was looking at the marina plan for Florence and was curious as to what docks would be first choice?  E apparently does not have a gate.  F and G are by the trailer parking, it appears.  The industrial activity seems to be at A to D.  Or did I get it wrong?
--
John (@Jkohnen)
A belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness. (Joseph Conrad)

Re: [MessaboutW] Coast Messabout October 6-8th

boblark@...
 

John, you are probably off to the Coast.  But, I was looking at the marina plan for Florence and was curious as to what docks would be first choice?  E apparently does not have a gate.  F and G are by the trailer parking, it appears.  The industrial activity seems to be at A to D.  Or did I get it wrong?

Re: [MessaboutW] Re: Reviewing Bob larkin's EV power chart

 

The usual way to plot speed/power is with the speed on the X axis. This illustrates the increasing resistance more intuitively. I've attached a plot of Cal's first test with the speed on the horizontal axis. The graph shows an anomalous increase in resistance at 3.8 mph and an anomalous decrease at 5.2 mph, exaggerated in the chart by the odd high amperage at 3.8 mph. The 3.8 mph point may be the one that's off the expected curve the most. If you delete it the 5.2 mph point probably isn't too far off what you'd expect.

There really isn't enough data yet to make any assumptions. Do lots more testing, Cal. It gives you an excuse to get out in your boat. ;o) Try to run the tests when the winds are light, and do as Bob says and do pairs of runs in opposite directions.

You haven't even come close to Surprise's "hull speed" yet, Cal -- about 6.3 mph -- so you're nowhere near planing. A shallow, narrow boat like Surprise could go a little faster than "hull speed" before the wave resistance goes up a bunch. When the wave resistance does build up it might still be low enough for Surprise to climb over the hump and start planing, but that'll be at a much higher speed than you're reached so far.

Try some higher-pitched props and see what happens. Have fun! :o)

On 9/29/2017 12:25 PM, Bob L wrote:
Hi Cal - It is always hard to trust a single data point.  I would suggest the next time you are out that you take several points art the higher amp range, and also take runs in opposite compass directions to eliminate wind effects.  I would be happy to plot such.  Bob L.
--
John (@Jkohnen)
The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization. (Sigmund Freud)

Re: [MessaboutW] Hi, Case ! -- A question for you

Case Turner
 

Hi Cal,

I wanted to make sure that you got my email I sent after the Paulina Messabout. Here is that message:

Good seeing you and Laverne at Paulina for the messabout. Sorry we bailed early Sunday, but that smoke (which rolled in around 1am) was too much so I had to bug out.

I'm going to have to hold off on buying Laverne's kayak. One of dogs had to go visit the vet and the bill is going to dip into my boat buying funds.

I still would like to buy it from you, but I'm going to have to hold off until the end of the year. I completely understand if a buyer comes up before then.

If something changes financially before then I will let you know.


As far as the rack on the RAV4 It is oval shaped bars. I can take some pictures.

Case

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 9:33 AM, lendercal@... [MessaboutW] <MessaboutW@...> wrote:
 

Do you have roof bars or tubes across the top of your car for your kayak??  If you send some pix, or a note with the bar size, I can have, or can modify the cradle supports, the ones I have, to easily load it before you get here.  I'm happy to see you will have it, sorta like keeping it in the coots family.


Thanks again,   Cal



Re: Reviewing Bob larkin's EV power chart

boblark@...
 

Hi Cal - It is always hard to trust a single data point.  I would suggest the next time you are out that you take several points art the higher amp range, and also take runs in opposite compass directions to eliminate wind effects.  I would be happy to plot such.  Bob L.

Yaquina River Halloween Float

boblark@...
 

I know that we have not been to Florence yet, but a "heads up" that the Halloween float is a month away.  Note - to not make the time of ebb flow too late in the day, John K . wisely moved this up to FRIDAY.  Everyone, plan it in.  This is always a fun river trip.  Since the Flying Pig is no more, it may give a chance to get to visit The Timbers!


See http://www.coots.org/mb/Halloween/index.html


Also, I have been able to use my van for a shuttle vehicle a number of times, but this year, I hope to take the 8-ft Acorn, "Microwave."  This means their are no seats in the van, and it is not suitable for a shuttle vehicle. Can anybody else fill this role?   If it looks like a lot of rain, I will bring a kayak, and then the seats will be inside and we can use that. 


Bob L.

Reviewing Bob larkin's EV power chart

lendercal@...
 

That last upward line says that just maybe getting on plane is a possibility, with the right props.  I like the last speed surge there.  Is that what you saw Bob, or am I dreaming again??  Just trying to guess how much more push to amps I can get and still be a useful boat.  Any guesses, Bob, or John K., or any other prop guys out there ??


Thanks,  Cal


Re: [MessaboutW] Bad News, no boating his week !!

lendercal@...
 

The root canals went bad under the gold crowns. One molar cracked and  the other started an upper jaw infection, so we just decided to stop and have done with it.  The associated surgeon was great, and I'm good as gold again. 

I saved the gold crowns, after I paid the bill -- just picked them off the table. I figured just over 1/3 oz.of gold, with the alloy -- which is platinum.  Humm, that is maybe 1/3 oz. at whatever the going rate is for 24 Kt, since platinum is more $$ than pure gold usually.  Cut the bill in half, cause the insurance pays a large part, I keep the change.   A small profit makes the work easier to bear.  Not usually going that way though.

Good to have some off weather, before the whole place crisps up.  The local caterpillars have furry coat color differences, that make it likely we have a warm winter.  Nope, not kidding, but it does derive from some folk tales as to how animals prepare.  A good naturalist can dope out a surprising prediction, think I'll look for that tonight on the web, just curious.

For instance, the extreme good fishing at Paulina -- the Kokanee explosion that I didn't bother to join, darn it !!!  Figured that the smoke for so long darkened the water way early -- the fish thought winter exploded on them.  The reaction was to eat everything in sight before the snows and winter closed the food supply.  I talked with one guy who was slaying the browns, as I said before, more than he ever had done before.  He was an intense fisherman, if I wasn't leaving I would have put right back in then.  Had all the gear fresh in the truck, but wanted to play with new boat this trip.

Thanks, John --- catch you later (nyuk, nyuk !! )  -----  cal



Re: [MessaboutW] Coast Messabout October 6-8th

 

Acme was/is near the mouth of Skunk Creek. The shipyard there was probably about where the defunct Murphy sawmill is today. (see map linked to in the page below):

http://www.coots.org/mb/Coast/

The chinook season is open until November:

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/RR/northwest/

On 9/26/2017 2:46 PM, I wrote:
...
The channel up to Mapleton, or at least to the mills slightly
downstream, used to me maintained, and I can remember when barges loaded
with lumber came down the river. I'll bet in the Old Days some lumber
schooners went up above Cushman. At least one good-sized schooner was
built at Acme, now part of Cushman, about where the Siuslaw Marina is
now, I think.
You're right about fall salmon season on the Siuslaw. Campers should
make reservations, but I wouldn't worry about getting a slip in the
underused recreational marina. I'm going to the Coast this weekend. I'll
stop and talk to the campground hosts.
http://www.coots.org/mb/Coast/
--
John (@Jkohnen)
The sea drives truth into a man like salt. (Hilaire Belloc)

Fern Ridge Boating

 

The Corps of Engineers will pull the plug on Fern Ridge next Monday, October 2nd. The lake level will drop about 4" a day after that. Richardson Park will close its doors until next spring the next Monday, October 9th. Orchard Point Park remains open year round and small boats will be able to be launched there for a while yet.

The Corps' graph of Fern Ridge water levels:

http://www.nwd-wc.usace.army.mil/nwp/teacup/willamette/frn.pdf

A spreadsheet showing depths at the launch ramps and slips at the Parks and YC:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ohmfcv8

or

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AyiR5AH7qpNp6gdkKgUHeoYiYUhSmi2CrdW--c6XSrU/edit#gid=0

I'm probably gonna pull Lazy Jack next Wednesday.

--
John (@Jkohnen)
Autumn carries more gold in its pocket than all the other seasons. (Jim Bishop)