Date   

Re: Neat New Electric Outboard

David Graybeal
 

Another video on the topic. Looks interesting --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te_xejpriFM


Re: Neat New Electric Outboard

Jove Lachman-Curl
 

On an aircraft propeller the center of effort is at the 70% radius of the blade. Lift reduces to zero at the hub since there isn't any foil to fluid velocity. From this, I'd assume that there are very little or no tip losses in this design, and it makes a lot of sense to remove the central nacelle of a typical ducted fan design if possible to reduce drag, On the other hand the external nacelle provides a lot of drag surface vs a traditional boat prop. Perhaps fragile if you hit something in the blade tip area.
-Jove

On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 3:03 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
Saw an article in a recent Watercraft mag about "rim motors". The
electric ones oughta have lotsa torque, since all the power is made out
at the rim, and the integral propeller/nozzle eliminates wasted power at
the propeller tips. Dunno what happens when the open end of a propeller
blade is on the _inside_...

http://www.hy-generation.com/

--
John <jkohnen@...>
There is no greater fan of fly fishing than the worm. (Patrick F. McManus)


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com







Neat New Electric Outboard

 

Saw an article in a recent Watercraft mag about "rim motors". The electric ones oughta have lotsa torque, since all the power is made out at the rim, and the integral propeller/nozzle eliminates wasted power at the propeller tips. Dunno what happens when the open end of a propeller blade is on the _inside_...

http://www.hy-generation.com/

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
There is no greater fan of fly fishing than the worm. (Patrick F. McManus)


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Looks like solar cells are better !!

 

10 amps @ 24 volts = 240 watts. Doesn't add up...

https://smile.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B08X452VFM/themotherofal-20

Joe Grez did the Salish 100 under solar power with an array about so big:

https://flic.kr/p/2gB9w6t

IIRC, he said he could do two knots, when the sun cooperated, with the input from the soar array equaling the output to the motor. An EP Carry:

https://www.electricpaddle.com/

If we have a Salish 100 this year, he'll be doing it again in something a little bigger (based on a C-Lark hull), with room for more solar panels. See attachments.

On 3/16/2021 6:44 AM, Electri-Cal wrote:
With the newer solar panels on Amazon, I see 10 amp at 24 volt in a size that fits Surprises aft deck.  In fact 2 panels ( 21 by 41 in. ) will fit easy and still open as designed for access.  My cruise speed uses about 10 amp on the battery, so two panels ought to do, even on slightly cloudy days.  With my two 24 volt batt. packs, that could equate to running as long as I could stand to sit and cruise.  The panel cost is now down to $ 70. 00  each -- which is just about what a battery costs at bi Mart.  With my heavier duty fork lift # 27 size, that's about enough to fill in the gap even better, for safety's sake on the water.
...
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Science has never drummed up quite as effective a tranquilizing agent as a sunny spring day. (W. Earl Hall)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Looks like solar cells are better !!

Arthur Goussy
 

Sorry sold


On Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 10:11 AM Myles Twete <matwete@...> wrote:

Hi Cal-

I didn’t see a link, but looking at Amazon, I think you’re looking at something like this?

Amazon.com: Sutakhi 100W Mono Flexible Solar Panel 20A/10A Solar Controller Module for Car Rv Boat Home Roof Vans Camping 12V 24V Solar Battery Solar Cells: Home & Kitchen

 

Right up front: These are NOT 24v panels---their output is likely optimal only to charge 12v of lead acid per panel.  More on that below.

 

The way that ad is written, it’s hard to know for sure that you  actually get a solar panel at all---could be just a solar controller.

Having said that, their photos reveal it includes BOTH.  And in the minimal specs they show for the panels themselves, except for the dimensions, they only indicate 24v and ~20% efficiency plus construction images validating it as a monocrystalline high efficiency solar panel.

 

But without V-I characteristics, you really have no idea how this would work as you intend.  Let’s say you get 2 panels (and 2 charge controllers with them).  First, that charge controller (if used) is a PWM controller and not MPPT.  This means that it will not be useful at all to boost the voltage and will not optimize its operating point and give you the best efficiency all the time.  Still, a charge controller is nice (and free with this deal).  But let’s ignore it.

 

I’m guessing your figuring is to use 1 panel to charge 24v of lead acid.  Is that correct?

Let’s say you connect the panel simply thru a fuse for charging.

Do you just expect 100watts (or 4amps) charging whenever the sun is shining?  It’s not that simple.  For one thing, that 100watts is the rated output, and likely for high noon at the equator.  Mount your panel horizontal and even at the equator, the output will vary thru the day, maybe getting 5.5hours avg at 100watts.  Now, move to 45deg latitude (Salem, Oregon) and mounted horizontally, these are now 70watt panels, max.  And depending on the time of year and the weather, you might get 1 hour of son or 4hours of sun, so from Spring to Fall, you might figure 3-hours, but not 100watts---just 70, or 210w-h per-panel per-day.

 

Now, we haven’t at all talked about the solar panel’s V-I curve, AND the ad mentions nowhere what that curve looks like.  We have no clue what the Voc, Isc are, let alone what the Vmpp, Impp are.  Those are key!  Now, let’s take a WAG and assume these cells are 0.45vpc (at mpp) and you have 32 of them in series---we might then expect a panel MPP of 14.4v.

 

But why guess?  Looking for similar looking panels, here’s one that looks like it uses the same panels:

Amazon.com : YUANFENGPOWER 100W 12V Flexible Solar Panel Monocrystalline PERC Solar Cells for 12v/24v Battery Camper RV Boat Caravan Cabin Tent Car (100w) : Garden & Outdoor

 

And there we see this:

Pmp: 100w

Vmp: 18v

Imp: 5.55a

Voc: 21.6v

Isc: 6.11a

And of course, the specs are for 25degC, and 1 full equator sun

 

Even at the equator, if you took one of these panels and hooked it up to 24v of PbA batteries, you will get ZERO charge current unless the batteries are nearly dead (21.6v).  And only then will you get any charge current at all.  And MPP is at 18v (@5.55a) and only pointed directly at the son (tilted near 45deg here in the NW, at noon, mid-summer)

 

So their add is misleading: One of these panels is sized to charge a single 12v battery bank.  And that PWM controller won’t do DCDC conversion to get the panel to operate at MPP, so you may as well use it as a boat anchor.  Still, it’s a decent deal if the quality is there.  But what should we then expect?

 

For mid-summer, with horizontal mounting, at high noon and direct connected to one 12v battery that is nom. 12v, we would expect roughly 6amps * 70% (latitude adjust) = 4.2amps.

Total power from panel ~ 50watts.

And you would need 4 of these.  Cost: $280 for 200watts of PEAK power, high noon, mid-summer.

So, you lose 30% due to horizontal mounting at 45deg latitude and another 20% due to an operating voltage of 12v instead of at Vmp.

 

Now, what could you do to improve things?

·       Invest in a single nom. 48v MPPT controller

·       Explore mounting options to get better sun

 

A MPPT controller is effectively a DCDC that is programmed to maximize charge current to the battery (respecting battery limits) by adjusting the V-I operating point of the solar panel outputs.  With a MPPT controller, you could get close to recovering all of that 20% loss.

Mounting options---now this gets fun for boats, especially on sunny late Fall thru early Spring days with calm, highly reflective water.  I visualize having 4 panels like these that I could attach (small bungies to the eyelets) on one side of my boat, electrically connected in series, then plugged into a socket on the side of the boat (that goes to a MPPT) controller.  If I’m heading upstream (East) for hours, mount them on the starboard side vertically.

Else, mount them on the other side.

 

Advantage: Low sun, panels pointed directly at it AND getting nearly a 2nd sun’s energy off the water.  I imagine that in this configuration on a nice late Fall, early Spring day one could effectively get close to rated power out of the panel.  But maybe not.

 

Anyway, whew…

 

-MT

 

 

From: oregoncoots@groups.io [mailto:oregoncoots@groups.io] On Behalf Of Electri-Cal
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 6:45 AM
To: oregoncoots@groups.io
Subject: [oregoncoots] Looks like solar cells are better !!

 

With the newer solar panels on Amazon, I see 10 amp at 24 volt in a size that fits Surprises aft deck.  In fact 2 panels ( 21 by 41 in. ) will fit easy and still open as designed for access.  My cruise speed uses about 10 amp on the battery, so two panels ought to do, even on slightly cloudy days.  With my two 24 volt batt. packs, that could equate to running as long as I could stand to sit and cruise.  The panel cost is now down to $ 70. 00  each -- which is just about what a battery costs at bi Mart.  With my heavier duty fork lift # 27 size, that's about enough to fill in the gap even better, for safety's sake on the water. 

I was looking to add batts. and still could, but now I think the floor space, and weight savings with better panel cost will make this a better deal to try first, when added to my current run time on a good boating day.  This could well save having to go to way more expensive (but lighter) battery types, after all there is a limitation on how long the boating day is, and most don't choose to run at night much,  Answers the most asked question about the boat as well.   

Just a thought on the newer square cell and flexible panels , they look good,  see Ya !!  ----  Cal


Re: Looks like solar cells are better !!

Myles Twete
 

Hi Cal-

I didn’t see a link, but looking at Amazon, I think you’re looking at something like this?

Amazon.com: Sutakhi 100W Mono Flexible Solar Panel 20A/10A Solar Controller Module for Car Rv Boat Home Roof Vans Camping 12V 24V Solar Battery Solar Cells: Home & Kitchen

 

Right up front: These are NOT 24v panels---their output is likely optimal only to charge 12v of lead acid per panel.  More on that below.

 

The way that ad is written, it’s hard to know for sure that you  actually get a solar panel at all---could be just a solar controller.

Having said that, their photos reveal it includes BOTH.  And in the minimal specs they show for the panels themselves, except for the dimensions, they only indicate 24v and ~20% efficiency plus construction images validating it as a monocrystalline high efficiency solar panel.

 

But without V-I characteristics, you really have no idea how this would work as you intend.  Let’s say you get 2 panels (and 2 charge controllers with them).  First, that charge controller (if used) is a PWM controller and not MPPT.  This means that it will not be useful at all to boost the voltage and will not optimize its operating point and give you the best efficiency all the time.  Still, a charge controller is nice (and free with this deal).  But let’s ignore it.

 

I’m guessing your figuring is to use 1 panel to charge 24v of lead acid.  Is that correct?

Let’s say you connect the panel simply thru a fuse for charging.

Do you just expect 100watts (or 4amps) charging whenever the sun is shining?  It’s not that simple.  For one thing, that 100watts is the rated output, and likely for high noon at the equator.  Mount your panel horizontal and even at the equator, the output will vary thru the day, maybe getting 5.5hours avg at 100watts.  Now, move to 45deg latitude (Salem, Oregon) and mounted horizontally, these are now 70watt panels, max.  And depending on the time of year and the weather, you might get 1 hour of son or 4hours of sun, so from Spring to Fall, you might figure 3-hours, but not 100watts---just 70, or 210w-h per-panel per-day.

 

Now, we haven’t at all talked about the solar panel’s V-I curve, AND the ad mentions nowhere what that curve looks like.  We have no clue what the Voc, Isc are, let alone what the Vmpp, Impp are.  Those are key!  Now, let’s take a WAG and assume these cells are 0.45vpc (at mpp) and you have 32 of them in series---we might then expect a panel MPP of 14.4v.

 

But why guess?  Looking for similar looking panels, here’s one that looks like it uses the same panels:

Amazon.com : YUANFENGPOWER 100W 12V Flexible Solar Panel Monocrystalline PERC Solar Cells for 12v/24v Battery Camper RV Boat Caravan Cabin Tent Car (100w) : Garden & Outdoor

 

And there we see this:

Pmp: 100w

Vmp: 18v

Imp: 5.55a

Voc: 21.6v

Isc: 6.11a

And of course, the specs are for 25degC, and 1 full equator sun

 

Even at the equator, if you took one of these panels and hooked it up to 24v of PbA batteries, you will get ZERO charge current unless the batteries are nearly dead (21.6v).  And only then will you get any charge current at all.  And MPP is at 18v (@5.55a) and only pointed directly at the son (tilted near 45deg here in the NW, at noon, mid-summer)

 

So their add is misleading: One of these panels is sized to charge a single 12v battery bank.  And that PWM controller won’t do DCDC conversion to get the panel to operate at MPP, so you may as well use it as a boat anchor.  Still, it’s a decent deal if the quality is there.  But what should we then expect?

 

For mid-summer, with horizontal mounting, at high noon and direct connected to one 12v battery that is nom. 12v, we would expect roughly 6amps * 70% (latitude adjust) = 4.2amps.

Total power from panel ~ 50watts.

And you would need 4 of these.  Cost: $280 for 200watts of PEAK power, high noon, mid-summer.

So, you lose 30% due to horizontal mounting at 45deg latitude and another 20% due to an operating voltage of 12v instead of at Vmp.

 

Now, what could you do to improve things?

·       Invest in a single nom. 48v MPPT controller

·       Explore mounting options to get better sun

 

A MPPT controller is effectively a DCDC that is programmed to maximize charge current to the battery (respecting battery limits) by adjusting the V-I operating point of the solar panel outputs.  With a MPPT controller, you could get close to recovering all of that 20% loss.

Mounting options---now this gets fun for boats, especially on sunny late Fall thru early Spring days with calm, highly reflective water.  I visualize having 4 panels like these that I could attach (small bungies to the eyelets) on one side of my boat, electrically connected in series, then plugged into a socket on the side of the boat (that goes to a MPPT) controller.  If I’m heading upstream (East) for hours, mount them on the starboard side vertically.

Else, mount them on the other side.

 

Advantage: Low sun, panels pointed directly at it AND getting nearly a 2nd sun’s energy off the water.  I imagine that in this configuration on a nice late Fall, early Spring day one could effectively get close to rated power out of the panel.  But maybe not.

 

Anyway, whew…

 

-MT

 

 

From: oregoncoots@groups.io [mailto:oregoncoots@groups.io] On Behalf Of Electri-Cal
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 6:45 AM
To: oregoncoots@groups.io
Subject: [oregoncoots] Looks like solar cells are better !!

 

With the newer solar panels on Amazon, I see 10 amp at 24 volt in a size that fits Surprises aft deck.  In fact 2 panels ( 21 by 41 in. ) will fit easy and still open as designed for access.  My cruise speed uses about 10 amp on the battery, so two panels ought to do, even on slightly cloudy days.  With my two 24 volt batt. packs, that could equate to running as long as I could stand to sit and cruise.  The panel cost is now down to $ 70. 00  each -- which is just about what a battery costs at bi Mart.  With my heavier duty fork lift # 27 size, that's about enough to fill in the gap even better, for safety's sake on the water. 

I was looking to add batts. and still could, but now I think the floor space, and weight savings with better panel cost will make this a better deal to try first, when added to my current run time on a good boating day.  This could well save having to go to way more expensive (but lighter) battery types, after all there is a limitation on how long the boating day is, and most don't choose to run at night much,  Answers the most asked question about the boat as well.   

Just a thought on the newer square cell and flexible panels , they look good,  see Ya !!  ----  Cal


Re: Ken's AF4 Breve

Ken Preston
 

If that dusty disorganized disaster area looks CLEAN then we now know that photos lie.  The shop vac hooked up to the random orbital sander does help, but what an awkward arrangement that is! <grin>


Looks like solar cells are better !!

Electri-Cal
 

With the newer solar panels on Amazon, I see 10 amp at 24 volt in a size that fits Surprises aft deck.  In fact 2 panels ( 21 by 41 in. ) will fit easy and still open as designed for access.  My cruise speed uses about 10 amp on the battery, so two panels ought to do, even on slightly cloudy days.  With my two 24 volt batt. packs, that could equate to running as long as I could stand to sit and cruise.  The panel cost is now down to $ 70. 00  each -- which is just about what a battery costs at bi Mart.  With my heavier duty fork lift # 27 size, that's about enough to fill in the gap even better, for safety's sake on the water. 

I was looking to add batts. and still could, but now I think the floor space, and weight savings with better panel cost will make this a better deal to try first, when added to my current run time on a good boating day.  This could well save having to go to way more expensive (but lighter) battery types, after all there is a limitation on how long the boating day is, and most don't choose to run at night much,  Answers the most asked question about the boat as well.   

Just a thought on the newer square cell and flexible panels , they look good,  see Ya !!  ----  Cal


Re: Ken's AF4 Breve

 

I envy how _clean_ his shop is! How does he do that? <g>

On 3/15/2021 3:55 PM, Rich G wrote:
Looks great! I envy the inside shop build and that’s a fact.
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness? (Jean Jacques Rousseau)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Ken's AF4 Breve

Richard Green
 

Looks great! I envy the inside shop build and that’s a fact.

Rich

On Mar 15, 2021, at 2:06 PM, John Kohnen <jkohnen@boat-links.com> wrote:

Ken on Bainbridge Island is making good progress on his AF4B build. See attachments. Looks Good, Ken!

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. (George Santayana)



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com





<SmallBottom.jpg><IMG_20210311_095854582.jpg><IMG_20210311_095918286.jpg><IMG_20210311_095946434.jpg>


Re: Full Steam Ahead at Toledo

David Graybeal
 

I love that you're working to keep the options open. And I'd love to see it happen. Safely. Just not sure about how safe things will seem at that point... so will be playing it by ear as the time gets closer. Thanks!

 

 


Ken's AF4 Breve

 

Ken on Bainbridge Island is making good progress on his AF4B build. See attachments. Looks Good, Ken!

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. (George Santayana)



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Full Steam Ahead at Toledo

 

I hope not too much "star power". <g> The plan is for a get-together --
dare I say "messabout? <g> -- for the boat nuts: Coots, Retired Old Geezers, steamers and other past exhibitors; to keep the enthusiasm and momentum going. We don't want to attract crowds. But I expect only a few steam nuts will show up. Stephanie isn't gonna be advertising the event, just putting the word out by email. I'm talking about it out in the open here, but won't be putting anything in the Coot page on the Interweb or the "official" schedule.

If you're wondering why Bud isn't relaxing at his villa in France, he said the Covid is much worse there than in Lincoln County, and besides the Port is paying him as a consultant to help with the transfer of power.

On 3/15/2021 8:35 AM, Dan in Almostcanada wrote:
Now, there's STAR POWER ferya...
--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Never lose a chance of saying a kind word. (William Makepeace Thackeray)
--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Full Steam Ahead at Toledo

Dan
 

Now, there's STAR POWER ferya...


Re: NEW TOPIC (but I don't know how to do that, officially)

Dan
 

Hi Bob.

Yeah, belt and suspenders. I have a couple small kickers that fit on a
bracket to port, and I'm putting a really big solar panel up on the
housetop to back up the couple gp 27's with a trolling motor that is mostly
there for maneuvering in close to the beach in my backing-in with bow hook.
But, that's all on Walkabout. i was trying to get a main up and running
for Miss Kathleen to put her in service, when I got "other
responsibilities..." The beat goes on. Dan.


Full Steam Ahead at Toledo

 

Bud called me. Alas, it's looking like there won't be a full-blown Toledo Wooden Boat Show in August. We'll see for sure in a few months, but...

So, falling back to smaller options, we're still invited to a gathering of the boat nuts on the docks that weekend. Bud talked to Stephanie, sparkplug (do steamboats have sparkplugs? <g>) of the NW Steam Society, and she was excited about coming to Toledo for the get-together. I think she's getting stir crazy. <g> Would that be OK with you Coots? I think we all enjoyed having the steamers and their boats when they came a few years ago.

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Steam is the friend of man. Steam engines are very human. Their very weaknesses are understandable. Steam engines do not flash back and blow your face in. They do not short-circuit and rive your heart with imponderable electric force. They have arms and legs and warm hearts and veins full of warm vapor. Give us steam every time. You know where you are with steam. (William McFee)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: Season Opener Messabout. march 27th

Case Turner
 

Hmm haven’t been there since college. Lake creek falls is an easy hike not far from there. It’s half mile round trip or so.

Maybe I’ll make it over.

Dirt.

On Mar 14, 2021, at 3:58 PM, John Kohnen <jkohnen@boat-links.com> wrote:

The socially-distanced, masked up (when near other people), Season Opener Messabout will be a "lunch messabout" at Triangle Lake, in the Coast Range west of Junction City. Triangle Lake is an interesting, landslide dammed, little lake. The water should still be cold enough at the end of March to keep the ski boats away.

http://www.coots.org/mb/Opener/

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Science has never drummed up quite as effective a tranquilizing agent as a sunny spring day. (W. Earl Hall)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com






Season Opener Messabout. march 27th

 

The socially-distanced, masked up (when near other people), Season Opener Messabout will be a "lunch messabout" at Triangle Lake, in the Coast Range west of Junction City. Triangle Lake is an interesting, landslide dammed, little lake. The water should still be cold enough at the end of March to keep the ski boats away.

http://www.coots.org/mb/Opener/

--
John <jkohnen@boat-links.com>
Science has never drummed up quite as effective a tranquilizing agent as a sunny spring day. (W. Earl Hall)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Re: NEW TOPIC (but I don't know how to do that, officially)

Bob Miller
 

Dan -

As motor only, do you carry a backup onboard?

Bob



Sender notified by
Mailtrack 03/14/21, 11:13:36 AM


On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 10:26 AM Dan <danashore@...> wrote:
Ahoy, Capt. Pete!!

Yes, we seem to have survived the minefield, so far.  (Of course, we
recall the slogan about every ship...)  My op-radius has been clipped by
continuing responsibilities during most weekdays; however,  that hop to
Sucia in some form would now be doable--and delightful.  I did try several
more times, and then gave up on putting Miss K back into service for loaner
status--I do seem to devour otherwise happy outboard motors.  As I count on
my mental fingers, there are about 8 hanging on racks in my lawn mower shed
with varying histories of interventions gone wide of the mark.  Deep sigh.

This step off the scheduled path is nothing more than a visceral need for
some sort of company of the boatguy/gal persuasion.  I'll likely disrupt
the normal rhythm in such an attempt.  Single up!  v/r Dan.






Re: NEW TOPIC (but I don't know how to do that, officially)

Dan
 

Ahoy, Capt. Pete!!

Yes, we seem to have survived the minefield, so far. (Of course, we
recall the slogan about every ship...) My op-radius has been clipped by
continuing responsibilities during most weekdays; however, that hop to
Sucia in some form would now be doable--and delightful. I did try several
more times, and then gave up on putting Miss K back into service for loaner
status--I do seem to devour otherwise happy outboard motors. As I count on
my mental fingers, there are about 8 hanging on racks in my lawn mower shed
with varying histories of interventions gone wide of the mark. Deep sigh.

This step off the scheduled path is nothing more than a visceral need for
some sort of company of the boatguy/gal persuasion. I'll likely disrupt
the normal rhythm in such an attempt. Single up! v/r Dan.

981 - 1000 of 55959