Date   

Re: Beaver Creek

 

Thanks for the report, Jim. Not a good day for poking around in beaver Creek... Looking at NOAA's weather conditions page, it seems like it wasn't as wet as the Weatherman was threatening, or quite as windy (though windy enough <g>). It wasn't as awful here as He said it would be. But the ocean lived up to expectations?

On 1/11/2020 3:09 PM, Waldport Jim wrote:
This is The road to the boat ramp about half an hour after today’s high tide. White stuff is foam from the ocean. Water was surging about half way between the ramp and the parking lot. Lots of great wave watching along the ocean.
--
John <@Jkohnen>
Winter is icumen in,/Lhude sing Goddamm,/Raineth drop and staineth slop,/And how the wind doth ramm!/Sing: Goddam. (Ezra Pound)


Beaver Creek

jim reim
 

This is The road to the boat ramp about half an hour after today’s high tide. White stuff is foam from the ocean. Water was surging about half way between the ramp and the parking lot. Lots of great wave watching along the ocean.


Re: Waterway access Permit

John Weiss
 

That's right! you still have to pay if you want to be a crab! :)

On 01/11/20 12:18, John Kohnen wrote:
I've got one. $6. But they were Free until just a couple of years ago. <harrumph> No old fogey discount on the crab or waterways permits.
On 1/11/2020 12:05 PM, Myles S wrote:
John - If you haved lived in Oregon for at least 50 years you can get a very inexpensive license.


Re: Waterway access Permit

 

I've got one. $6. But they were Free until just a couple of years ago. <harrumph> No old fogey discount on the crab or waterways permits.

On 1/11/2020 12:05 PM, Myles S wrote:
John - If you haved lived in Oregon for at least 50 years you can get a very inexpensive license.
https://myodfw.com/articles/pioneer-and-other-licenses-seniors
--
John <@Jkohnen>
Correlation does not imply causation; except, of course, to your cat. (Craig O'Donnell)


Re: Waterway access Permit

MylesJ Swift
 

John - If you haved lived in Oregon for at least 50 years you can get a very inexpensive license.


MylesJ


Re: Glue, caulk, Strip Planking on small craft, Some Observations

 

Scraping is the best way to get rid of that nasty polyurthane foam. :ob A good way to handle squeeze-out, drips and sags of any goo. Add heat when scraping epoxy.

Even though Katydidn't is short and fat, the pram bow should make the planks go on easily. No twist to meet a pointy bow. Lofting a boat before making the molds ensures that the planks/strips will lie smoothly with no unexpected sharp bends.

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Dinks/images/PeteyDinkCm-2.gif

Paul Gartside recommends putting on the first strip so it lies fair, with no edge set. Then working up and down from that, and not being concerned if the strips run out at the sheer, or run into each other at the keel. Of course he likes paint too. <g>

But you're absolutely right that going with cheap materials often leads to more work. Katydidn't is so small that even using the best stuff won't cost too many arms and legs. But cutting strips is awfully wasteful! Every 1/4" strip uses up 3/8" of wood, with a typical tablesaw blade.

PL Premium is like Gorilla Glue with cheap fillers added. It sure works better than the unthickened stuff! And sure is cheaper. But for strip planking I think it's too thick. Something like Titebond II or III is easy to apply and will squeeze out of the joint between strips without heavy clamping. You can wipe of squeezeout with a damp cloth.

On 1/10/2020 5:57 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
I have had the "black hand of a Gorilla " too often, gloves or not it's no fun.  The foaming sucks to sand off, mask required !!! ...
Needs those smooth curves with less lofting effort. Knots and flaws in grain make smooth curves more difficult, and / or break at the chine, or bow rise when bending.   Non perfect grain is way less strength as hard spots, that can pop free when forcing the curves.  I learned that some $$ wood quality savings make things way tougher to get a smooth sanded flow of hull shape.
...
You tube has ideas and tests, good ones.  I just looked in my shop and the top result is my current stock of 3 tubes (for accurate "beads" ) of  reliable Loktite PL Premium, the 3X stronger type.  It goes on well, wipes ( 2 in. metal spatula ) out of seams to flush off, sands after curing and flexes about like the base strips to hold.  Tu
...
--
John <@Jkohnen>
If animals could speak, the dog would be a blundering outspoken fellow; but the cat would have the rare grace of never saying a word too much. (Mark Twain)


Re: Borden's Glue

 

We know a good place to get bending oak:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskQzSLjv

I'll bet a Geodesic Airolite Katydidn't would come in close to 20 lb....

On 1/11/2020 7:14 AM, Randy T wrote:
...
Weight wise the skin-on-frame would be the lightest at 25 to 30lbs, the strip plake at 30 to 40lbs and the cold molded the heaviest at 40 to 50lbs.
...
Maybe I will have to build all three but I think that skin-on-frame would be first.  I just need to get the canoe out of the garage and find green or air dried Oak for the frames.
--
John <@Jkohnen>
It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed at all. (James Thurber)


Re: Borden's Glue

 

Katydidn't is only 6 1/2 ft. long. Makes getting long enough stringers a lot easier. <g>

The Retired Old Geezers might not agree with Andrew! ;o) But I can attest that less finicky and high-tech SOF techniques than Geodesic Airolite are indeed a cheap, quick, fun, and end even relaxing way to build a boat. So easy that even Andrew can do it. ;o)

On 1/11/2020 7:21 AM, Andrew wrote:
The biggest expense of Skin-on-Frame is getting sticks long enough. Knots are bad, but if you take the time to fine clear sections of wood (or get good at scarfing,) you'll be fine. SoF is the cheapest, fastest way to build a light, beautiful, boat.
I'll be happy to help in any way I can.
--
John <@Jkohnen>
He used statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts; for support rather than illumination. (Andrew Lang)


Wild Day at the Coast

 

!

"WHAT...Coastal flooding expected.Large and dangerous waves with breakers of 35 to 40 feet."

"ADDITIONAL DETAILS...The total tide at South Beach will be around 10 ft at 1210 PM this afternoon. The total tide at Astoria will be around 10.2 feet at 1 PM this afternoon. Similar conditions in the past have resulted in erosion in Neskowin, Yachats, and near the south jetty of the Columbia River in Clatsop county. Similar conditions have also resulted in flooding in Seaside, Cannon Beach, Neskowin, and Lincoln City."

A Good Day for storm watcing -- from a warm, dry seaside hotel. Not too close to the edge of the bluff. <g>

https://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=ORZ002&warncounty=ORC041&firewxzone=ORZ612&local_place1=7%20Miles%20N%20Waldport%20OR&product1=Coastal+Flood+Warning&lat=44.5212&lon=-124.07#.Xhn2ceyIa9c
--
John <@Jkohnen>
A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought. (Lord Peter Wimsey)
Sent from some sort of mobile device.


Re: Borden's Glue

Andrew Linn
 

The biggest expense of Skin-on-Frame is getting sticks long enough. Knots are bad, but if you take the time to fine clear sections of wood (or get good at scarfing,) you'll be fine. SoF is the cheapest, fastest way to build a light, beautiful, boat.

I'll be happy to help in any way I can.

On 1/11/2020 7:14 AM, Randy Torgerson wrote:
John,

I have done some back of napkin calculations for building Katydidn’t in strip plank, cold molded and skin-on-frame.  Strip plank would be easiest to build and the cheapest as I have everything I need to build one except 4oz glass; I have 6, 10 and 17 ounce glass in abundance; I have plenty of WRC to make strips and I know some boatbuilders who have left over strips.  10 years ago I gave away enough strips to build an 18 foot canoe so I think Karma will smile upon me. The cold molded would be second most difficult and the second most expensive as I need to get the glass and flitches. The skin-on-frame would be the most expensive and most difficult as I have not done a skin-on-frame boat build before and I have experience building strip and cold molded boats.


Weight wise the skin-on-frame would be the lightest at 25 to 30lbs, the strip plake at 30 to 40lbs and the cold molded the heaviest at 40 to 50lbs.


I have been re-reading John Guzzwell, Ian Nicholson and Hub Miller’s boatbuilding books and I think the forms for the cold molded boat would not be that much more difficult than the other construction methods.


Maybe I will have to build all three but I think that skin-on-frame would be first.  I just need to get the canoe out of the garage and find green or air dried Oak for the frames.


Randy

,_


Re: Borden's Glue

Randy Torgerson
 

John,

I have done some back of napkin calculations for building Katydidn’t in strip plank, cold molded and skin-on-frame.  Strip plank would be easiest to build and the cheapest as I have everything I need to build one except 4oz glass; I have 6, 10 and 17 ounce glass in abundance; I have plenty of WRC to make strips and I know some boatbuilders who have left over strips.  10 years ago I gave away enough strips to build an 18 foot canoe so I think Karma will smile upon me. The cold molded would be second most difficult and the second most expensive as I need to get the glass and flitches. The skin-on-frame would be the most expensive and most difficult as I have not done a skin-on-frame boat build before and I have experience building strip and cold molded boats.  


Weight wise the skin-on-frame would be the lightest at 25 to 30lbs, the strip plake at 30 to 40lbs and the cold molded the heaviest at 40 to 50lbs.


I have been re-reading John Guzzwell, Ian Nicholson and Hub Miller’s boatbuilding books and I think the forms for the cold molded boat would not be that much more difficult than the other construction methods.


Maybe I will have to build all three but I think that skin-on-frame would be first.  I just need to get the canoe out of the garage and find green or air dried Oak for the frames. 


Randy


Re: Glue, caulk, Strip Planking on small craft, Some Observations

Electri-Cal
 

I have had the "black hand of a Gorilla " too often, gloves or not it's no fun.  The foaming sucks to sand off, mask required !!!   The trick is to have it hold quickly, but have time to tape stripped ( I like the one and a half by say 5/16 inch, makes about 3/16 inch hull ) parts together, from a 2 by 8 straight grain cedar with correct grain for stripping.  We all know how to select boards with correct bending grain so it lays smooth and beads well, that's basic shop talk.

Needs those smooth curves with less lofting effort. Knots and flaws in grain make smooth curves more difficult, and / or break at the chine, or bow rise when bending.   Non perfect grain is way less strength as hard spots, that can pop free when forcing the curves.  I learned that some  $$ wood quality savings make things way tougher to get a smooth sanded flow of hull shape.  Almost have to build one, or a sample  curved panel first, to get the idea.  You can get the strips out in a mornings cutting to do an 8 ft.. dink, only one removable center mould, mine is still in the barn.  Bow and stern pieces are the real ones in most small boats, or a close start.

You tube has ideas and tests, good ones.  I just looked in my shop and the top result is my current stock of 3 tubes (for accurate "beads" ) of  reliable Loktite PL Premium, the 3X stronger type.  It goes on well, wipes ( 2 in. metal spatula ) out of seams to flush off, sands after curing and flexes about like the base strips to hold.  Turns out that's a top  Brand pick from the web site.  I did tests, built boats, decks, bulkheads, and never had a worry on the water.  Rubber gloves and H Freight shop LED light bars are a good idea, and a fan of course.

Did that get it answered??  I have sample panels or cut out pieces around here, or give me a buzzz  !!

Later,  Cal


















On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:23 PM John Kohnen <jkohnen@...> wrote:
To build something like a Katydidn't, at 6 1/2 ft. long, it wouldn't be
much trouble to get the strips out of ordinary lumberyard wood, cutting
around the flaws. The strips don't need to be perfect anyway. The wood
is just a core. You'd put the bad spots between the good parts of the
adjacent strips, to keep the shape. It's also kosher to cut out the bad
spots and butt shorter strips together when putting them on the boat,
but kinda finicky with 1/4" strips, I imagine.

I've got a bead and cove router bit I'd loan to the Boathouse for a
strip build.

What was that Elmer's waterproof glue, Cal? I don't much like their
"Gorilla Glue" type polyurethane, and I haven't seen an Elmer's
"modified" PVA on the shelves. Lots of strip builders just use
carpenter's glue, even though it's not water resistant, because it's
easy to use. The boats survive fine because they don't live in the water
and it takes quite a while for moisture to get through the glass and
epoxy. Titebond II and III are as easy to use as carpenter's glue
though, so that's what I'd use.

Modern lightweight strip construction is really wood-cored composite
construction and doesn't work as intended without glass on both sides of
the core. For one thing, glassing just the outside of a light, frameless
(the glass acts as the frames) boat isn't a good idea, because if the
inside isn't thoroughly sealed the wood can move with changes in it's
moisture content, warping the boat out of shape. It's even recommended
not to wait very long between glassing the inside and outside because of
the risk of the wood moving. It's also the glass on the inside that does
almost all the work resisting knocks, bangs, and punctures from outside,
since glass is strong in tension, but week in compression. Best to do
what the designers say to do...

On 1/8/2020 5:56 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
> First off, I did an 8 ft round bottom dink with old growth cedar cut to
> just over 5/ 16 ( to allow for some error ) pretty cost effective for a
> dink.  Used a couple dry 2 X 8 clear cedar boards picked from Jerrys,
> for grain that laid flat to bend correctly cause I could se it easy., 
>   NEW saw blade, cur all with a mask to avoid cedar dust, nasty stuff. 
> I ended up with enough to get me well under way,  Then used a small ball
> and router table to "C" out one side, sand the other to fit that radius,
> so the edges overlapped and rotated slightly as laid up over a couple
> bow, and stern frames L left as was, removed one center frame former. 
>   The bead and cove made alignment almost automatic, and was a pretty
> stiff hull.
>
> I glassed both sides, but it added unnecessary weight, outside is
> enough, in my experience,,  Maybe a floorboard inner pad for steeping
> aboard, or not.  I used elmers waterproof for everything except  glassed
> areas, I epoxied those.  Again I would use lighter than 3 oz. glass and
> less of it, the hull was really stronger than needed.
 > ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that
thing you just did? Don't do that." (Douglas Adams)






--
Thanks, I will reply to all mail as possible ---  Cal


Re: Borden's Glue

 

Oops! Attached the wrong version of that photo. This one takes up a lot less memory...

On 1/10/2020 3:01 PM, John Kohnen wrote:
I was wondering if seeing how well the Petey Dink CM worked after it was built was what made you decide to use Katydidn't/Petey Dink CM as the basis for a SOF dinghy. I was sure impressed by how ell the Musson's lapstrake Katydidn't worked when saw it in action. Lots of freeboard with two adults aboard (see attachment), might even hold two Coots! <g>
...
--
John <@Jkohnen>
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. (Anne Lamott)


Re: Borden's Glue

 
Edited

I was wondering if seeing how well the Petey Dink CM worked after it was built was what made you decide to use Katydidn't/Petey Dink CM as the basis for a SOF dinghy. I was sure impressed by how ell the Musson's lapstrake Katydidn't worked when saw it in action. Lots of freeboard with two adults aboard (see attachment), might even hold two Coots! <g>

Tows good too:

https://flic.kr/p/dKrVs3

https://flic.kr/p/dKrVs3

Yeah, cold molding seems like a pretty tedious way to build a boat. Almost like building two boats to get one. If you were gonna build a fleet...

I think Katydidn't would be a good boat to build using Platt Monfort's Geodesic Airolite method, with light framing stiffened with Kevlar roving. That's be the lightest construction, but a light enough boat could be built using more traditonal SOF construction, or the plywood web frame method Dave Gentry uses.

Although Katydidn't tows well, I'd like to be able to haul a dinghy aboard Lazy Jack when the weather gets unpleasant, or to maneuver in tight places. I think I could carry one on top of LJ's lazaret hatch...

One of us should build one! ;o)

http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Photos/Katydidnt/

On 1/3/2020 11:49 AM, Randy T wrote:
John,
The decision on which dingy to build has been a long and tortured path although the goal has not changed, the need for a dingy when I cruise the inland passage either in my plastic boat or the Tolman.  Whatever I build, the dingy will need to be light enough that I can pull it on-board by myself and small enough to fit on the foredeck.  A Cedar strip boat is relatively light weight and easy, if not tedious, to build.  The Katydidn’t was designed for 3/8 x 1 inch Cedar strips and can easily be built with 1/4 x 3/4 inch Cedar strips with glass inside and out.
The Pety Dink CM would also be easy to build but there are three issues that would have to be addressed.  I would need to either borrow John Guzzwell’s mold or build my own.
...
After reading Robert Morris’s book, Building Skin-On-Frame Boats, I decided that I could use the Katydidn’t as a starting point and I drew up a design that I call Peter Dink in homage to Peter Dinklage.  I would use steamed Oak ribs with Alaskan Yellow Cedar stringers.  The transoms would be 6mm plywood framed with Alaskan Yellow Cedar.  The knees, thwarts and just about everything else would be made from Alaskan Yellow Cedar since I have a couple hundred board feet of air dried 2x6’s in my woodshed.  I would use ballistic nylon and polyurethane varnish, most likely from Skinboats.org, for the skin.
Now if I only could finish the canoe in my garage I could get started on the dingy.  I have attached a photo of Dolly’s Pety Dink CM build by John.
--
John <@Jkohnen>
Start every day off with a smile and get it over with. (W. C. Fields)


Re: Waterway access Permit

 

The article in our local fishwrapper said the waterway access permits were gonna cost $15 a year, but that there maybe an added "administrative charge". <sigh> The extra money beyond the old invasive species permit charge goes to the marine Board, as does the outrageous new fee for our motorboat and sailboat stickers. <sigh>

The shellfish permit is now $10. At least my old fogey fishing license was only $6. But they used to be free! <harrumph>

On 1/6/2020 1:36 PM, Dirt wrote:
Was just online at ODFW buying all my fishing, hunting tags and licenses for the new year. Also the new Waterway access permit that is required for non-registered boats 10 foot and longer and sailboats under 12 feet. This was the invasive species permit.
The one year fee is $19, the two year fee shaves off a few bucks and comes in at $32.
Don’t forget to get one if you need one.
Need to go sell a kidney so I can pay for all their paper work.
--
John <@Jkohnen>
Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon. (Mark Twain)


Re: Glue, caulk, Strip Planking on small craft, Some Observations

 

To build something like a Katydidn't, at 6 1/2 ft. long, it wouldn't be much trouble to get the strips out of ordinary lumberyard wood, cutting around the flaws. The strips don't need to be perfect anyway. The wood is just a core. You'd put the bad spots between the good parts of the adjacent strips, to keep the shape. It's also kosher to cut out the bad spots and butt shorter strips together when putting them on the boat, but kinda finicky with 1/4" strips, I imagine.

I've got a bead and cove router bit I'd loan to the Boathouse for a strip build.

What was that Elmer's waterproof glue, Cal? I don't much like their "Gorilla Glue" type polyurethane, and I haven't seen an Elmer's "modified" PVA on the shelves. Lots of strip builders just use carpenter's glue, even though it's not water resistant, because it's easy to use. The boats survive fine because they don't live in the water and it takes quite a while for moisture to get through the glass and epoxy. Titebond II and III are as easy to use as carpenter's glue though, so that's what I'd use.

Modern lightweight strip construction is really wood-cored composite construction and doesn't work as intended without glass on both sides of the core. For one thing, glassing just the outside of a light, frameless (the glass acts as the frames) boat isn't a good idea, because if the inside isn't thoroughly sealed the wood can move with changes in it's moisture content, warping the boat out of shape. It's even recommended not to wait very long between glassing the inside and outside because of the risk of the wood moving. It's also the glass on the inside that does almost all the work resisting knocks, bangs, and punctures from outside, since glass is strong in tension, but week in compression. Best to do what the designers say to do...

On 1/8/2020 5:56 PM, Electri-Cal wrote:
First off, I did an 8 ft round bottom dink with old growth cedar cut to just over 5/ 16 ( to allow for some error ) pretty cost effective for a dink.  Used a couple dry 2 X 8 clear cedar boards picked from Jerrys, for grain that laid flat to bend correctly cause I could se it easy.,  NEW saw blade, cur all with a mask to avoid cedar dust, nasty stuff. I ended up with enough to get me well under way,  Then used a small ball and router table to "C" out one side, sand the other to fit that radius, so the edges overlapped and rotated slightly as laid up over a couple bow, and stern frames L left as was, removed one center frame former.  The bead and cove made alignment almost automatic, and was a pretty stiff hull.
I glassed both sides, but it added unnecessary weight, outside is enough, in my experience,,  Maybe a floorboard inner pad for steeping aboard, or not.  I used elmers waterproof for everything except  glassed areas, I epoxied those.  Again I would use lighter than 3 oz. glass and less of it, the hull was really stronger than needed.
...
--
John <@Jkohnen>
A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that." (Douglas Adams)


Re: Beaver Creek Messabout Next Saturday, the 11th

 

A good choice. It's supposed to be fun! <g> We saw a raft of kelp in Beaver Creek by the launch ramp last year. With a spring tide and strong wind from the west it would have been "interesting" to see if the ocean would cough something up into the creek again -- but probably not "fun" to be out in it. <g>

Saturday
"Showers. Snow level 2600 feet. High near 48. Windy, with a west northwest wind around 24 mph, with gusts as high as 39 mph. Chance of precipitation is 90%. New precipitation amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible."

https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lon=-124.07001&lat=44.52117

On 1/10/2020 9:35 AM, Bob Larkin wrote:
I was just talking to Jim Reim over at Waldport and Beaver Creek may not be a smart thing.   A combination of high tide and 25 ft swells can bring water into the creek which along with storm winds could make things somewhere between uncomfortable and unsafe.  So neither Jim nor I are going to be there.  As he said, this should bring really nice weather!!
Dan A. was going to come with me, and that won't work.  So, Jim, Dan A. and I will NOT be there.
When shall we have a winter alternative?  Beaver Creek is still a good place for the winter outings.  Thoughts?
--
John <@Jkohnen>
A learning experience is one of those things that say, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that." (Douglas Adams)


Re: Beaver Creek Messabout Next Saturday, the 11th

Case Turner
 

That’s a good call. There have been times when that chunk of HWY has flooded and been closed when the conditions alphabets been as forecasted. 

Case

Sent from not here

On Jan 10, 2020, at 9:36 AM, Bob Larkin <bob@...> wrote:

I was just talking to Jim Reim over at Waldport and Beaver Creek may not be a smart thing.   A combination of high tide and 25 ft swells can bring water into the creek which along with storm winds could make things somewhere between uncomfortable and unsafe.  So neither Jim nor I are going to be there.  As he said, this should bring really nice weather!!

Dan A. was going to come with me, and that won't work.  So, Jim, Dan A. and I will NOT be there. 

When shall we have a winter alternative?  Beaver Creek is still a good place for the winter outings.  Thoughts?

Bob L


Re: Beaver Creek Messabout Next Saturday, the 11th

Bob Larkin
 

I was just talking to Jim Reim over at Waldport and Beaver Creek may not be a smart thing.   A combination of high tide and 25 ft swells can bring water into the creek which along with storm winds could make things somewhere between uncomfortable and unsafe.  So neither Jim nor I are going to be there.  As he said, this should bring really nice weather!!

Dan A. was going to come with me, and that won't work.  So, Jim, Dan A. and I will NOT be there. 

When shall we have a winter alternative?  Beaver Creek is still a good place for the winter outings.  Thoughts?

Bob L


Note to Jim Reim -- Back to You

Electri-Cal
 

Yep, !!!  It is yours, as we discussed last night.  The marine ply is also yours, I found a gallon of basic epoxy that you will have to test, as it's been under the bench.  Probably some more stuff around here as well, so a pickup would work best, a roof rack is net in thoughts.  Some paddles might be handy, so we can go over stuff from other projects that might apply.  I am happy to see it can be used by a fellow coot,, so so let's get  it done before the show season.  This is almost perfect for Beaver Creek, and the smaller waterways in your area, so give me a buzz and we can get it done.  I didn't see my coot members list yet, so here goes.

Glad to find some stuff a better home,  ---   Cal

.