Date   

Re: Thread shreading

Anne Parker
 

Having read the shredding issues regarding Floriani thread I'm wondering which way it is twisted - does it have a right or left hand twist?  Threads used on a sewing machine should have a left or Z twist.  If they have a right or S twist they tend to untwist when used.

Also if it has too little twist that can lead to shredding.

This PDF from YLI is a good document to print for info on threads including the twist - http://www.ylicorp.com/CPanel/Document/A_THREAD_OF_TRUTH.pdf

Anne
www.sewingtales.wordpress.com

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94302460@N03/sets/

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance". Anon


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

ceilsews <no_reply@...>
 

My 15000 will allow me to thread it when it isn't locked, but will not allow the needle threader to work without it being locked. 


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Noreen Laurinaitis
 

the 15000 does not let you thread the machine unless it is locked.  It is a good machine for the price.


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Noreen Laurinaitis
 

so this explains why the 15000 won't let you thread the machine without locking it!  :)


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Cat - N
 

Thank you so much. 

I am sorry you had the problem...it happens so suddenly, doesn't it, and is really quite startling and scary.  I rarely walk away from the machine...have only done it when there was a lot of same color fill, and worried the whole time but was close enough to hear every stitch it took like a mama hen.

What you describe sounds so much like what has happened to me, including the machine 'eating' the embroidery.  I got it free with no damage, too, but, gosh, it was so tedious and difficult, and I was so afraid I would ruin it...jab the seam ripper right through the middle of the hoop or cut a gash in it or something equally awful.  I am so new at this that I always blame myself first, and wonder what I am doing wrong.  I have cleaned, and cleaned, and cleaned out the machine.  I have been thinking it was 'me' causing the problem by using it and having lint accumulate under the bobbin area, but the dealer had not even suggested the issue might be something linty.

I do not have my MC15000 yet...this happened on an MC11000 upgraded to v.3.10 like the MC11000SE.  I do not know if this machine has a "lock" to thread it...I did see that feature on the MC1500 at the dealer, though.  I believe I would have reached near panic if this was happening to an MC15000.  I 'pet' the MC15000 in the store when I go there...LOL  I can hardly wait, but, first, I need to make space for it and a couple other things.

I may need to re-read the manual again...there is so much...but the only time I have seen "Lock!" was when the machine put it on the screen when 'it' screwed up on my last design.  Miraculously, with my eyesight, I have been able to manually slip the thread through the needle eye most of the time, so the threader is not involved. 

Three of the attached photos show the the bobbin with the dark brown thread wound over the white bobbin thread.  The fourth photo was when there was a 'racket...' while stitching the previous design, then, after "LOCK!" appeared on the screen, the machine quit sewing by itself.  The gold thread in the bobbin area is the top thread.   Do any of these look like what happened to your machine?

When it jammed on this design, the machine didn't recognize the issue, didn't 'LOCK!' and just kept sewing even after the bobbin and clear plastic bobbin window/cover 'tented' my fabric under the hoop.  Of course, with the 'gold thread' design, it 'stabbed' the bobbin case with my last red tip needle and broke it...had to get needle nose pliers (no pun intended...LOL) to gently pull the needle out of the bobbin case plastic.

I am going to take the machine back to the dealer...something is 'not right', and I don't see how the problem could have been something I did, considering, as you look at the back of the embroidery design, the machine appeared to stitch quite nicely...I think...you would probably know better that I do about that...but then there's that horrible dark brown lump of thread down the ladder's satin stitch outline where the problem occurred.

It is really hard to learn to do machine embroidery with problems like these, but I am too stubborn to quit !

- Cat





-----Original Message-----
From: ceilsews
To: janome12000
Sent: Tue, Oct 27, 2015 11:34 pm
Subject: [janome12000] Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

 
I just had this problem with a design I was stitching.  All of a sudden there was a strange noise (do not leave your embroidery machine alone despite the lovely ads from Janome).  When I finally was able to free my embroidery from the machine, and luckily no damage to what I was doing, I found that the upper thread had been wound around the bobbin many times and the machine was trying to "eat" my project!
I think that the problem may be caused by not locking the machine before threading.  I have noticed that it seems the only time I have a problem with the auto threader is when I haven't locked the machine first and I think this time when I added a new color I did so without first locking the machine.  To fix the problem, I cut and removed the thread in use. re-threaded the machine, pulled out a length of bobbin thread (I think sometimes the bobbin thread is the culprit) and reseated the bobbin case and thread.  After that I had no problems. 
So the moral of the story is, always, always, lock the machine to change thread and then keep it locked to thread the needle.  When I have done this I have no problems with either  the needle threader or stitching..  And make sure that your bobbin area is clean, your needle is new, and you have a good bobbin thread.
Ceil


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

ceilsews <no_reply@...>
 

I just had this problem with a design I was stitching.  All of a sudden there was a strange noise (do not leave your embroidery machine alone despite the lovely ads from Janome).  When I finally was able to free my embroidery from the machine, and luckily no damage to what I was doing, I found that the upper thread had been wound around the bobbin many times and the machine was trying to "eat" my project!
I think that the problem may be caused by not locking the machine before threading.  I have noticed that it seems the only time I have a problem with the auto threader is when I haven't locked the machine first and I think this time when I added a new color I did so without first locking the machine.  To fix the problem, I cut and removed the thread in use. re-threaded the machine, pulled out a length of bobbin thread (I think sometimes the bobbin thread is the culprit) and reseated the bobbin case and thread.  After that I had no problems. 
So the moral of the story is, always, always, lock the machine to change thread and then keep it locked to thread the needle.  When I have done this I have no problems with either  the needle threader or stitching..  And make sure that your bobbin area is clean, your needle is new, and you have a good bobbin thread.
Ceil


Re: 5th Birthday Party!

Cat - N
 

Beautiful cake, and nice group of people.  Wonderful to have so many near you who sew. 

- Cat (Florida)



Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Cat - N
 

The machine says its 'time(s)' are:

Power 705 h
Drive   354 h

Unless these are changeable/reset-able, it looks like the machine was "on" for 29.375 days, and 'sewing' (or otherwise 'engaged') for 14.75 days...unless I am mis-interpretting what these mean.

Again, thank you so very, very much!  Bless You!!!

Cat out...LOL!

-  Cat (Florida)


Re: Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Cat - N
 

I cannot thank you enough for this information !!!! 

I was 'told' it was a 6-year-old machine that was upgraded to v.2 1/29/09, which is written in the manual.  I upgraded it this year to v.3 then to v.3.10 myself.  

After reading your reply, I looked on the internet for what the SN means, since the nomenclature plate has no mfg date, and this SN starts with "53" which I see described 'by a dealer' as "5" being the year = 2005, and "3" being produced in Q3...which does appear possible as a 'first run' machine, since someone else said they got theirs in '2005...shortly after they were released.'

My gosh you are good !!!

I will take the machine back to the dealer close to me, and if still unhappy with their treatment, will drive it to a larger city dealer to see if the proper adjustment can be accomplished so the machine sews correctly.   I have many plans, and have several projects already started.  The machine is not my 'beloved MC15000" model...yet...but it is still a very nice machine and I will likely keep it when I get my new one, but I cannot practice and learn on a machine that doesn't work properly, especially when it is due to a mal-adjustment I am unqualified to make myself.

Thank you so very, very much!

- Cat (Florida)


Re: Thread shreading

fabricartistpam
 

I have never been able to use Floriani on my Janome machines.  I know some people love it but it hates me!  Shreds every time I attempt to use it. Finally I gave up and don't ever use it. 

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 27, 2015, at 8:20 AM, "HEATHER COWAN heather-c@... [janome12000]" <janome12000@...> wrote:

 

Are you only having problems with that brand of thread?  My experience with Floriani was that it was not as tightly spun and shredded easily.   The Marathon and Madeira poly and rayon threads are problem free for me.   Marathon metallic is the best I have used for ease of use.  Some threads are finicky .... They need to come off the spool correctly and have a certain type of thread path with little tension.  Some thread just needs put in the garbage bin ..... Too much work.
Heather 

On Oct 27, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Mary Jane Weddle maryjweddle@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:

 I too have had problems with my Floriani Thread shredding while using my 15000.  I have lowered the embroidery foot and slowed down the machine, but still experience shredding.  It seems to be worse when the machine is sewing toward the left side and slightly upward.  I have also had this problem when I am doing free motion quilting and moving the fabric toward the left and slightly upwards.  It is like it starts to shred and then the thread gets caught in the bobbin area and it makes a big mess with several threads appearing on top of the fabrics.  I can turn the fabric while doing free motion quilting and I do not have the problem.  It seems the machine just does not handle sewing toward the left very well.
I  would like a solution to this problem too.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would like to know what to do.
Thanks!

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:
 

I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????



Re: Thread shreading

Mary Jane Weddle <maryjweddle@...>
 

I have LOTS of Floriani thread. I have had problems with the Floriani and also some fine quilting threads. 

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 27, 2015, at 11:20 AM, HEATHER COWAN heather-c@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:

 

Are you only having problems with that brand of thread?  My experience with Floriani was that it was not as tightly spun and shredded easily.   The Marathon and Madeira poly and rayon threads are problem free for me.   Marathon metallic is the best I have used for ease of use.  Some threads are finicky .... They need to come off the spool correctly and have a certain type of thread path with little tension.  Some thread just needs put in the garbage bin ..... Too much work.
Heather 

On Oct 27, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Mary Jane Weddle maryjweddle@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:

 

I too have had problems with my Floriani Thread shredding while using my 15000.  I have lowered the embroidery foot and slowed down the machine, but still experience shredding.  It seems to be worse when the machine is sewing toward the left side and slightly upward.  I have also had this problem when I am doing free motion quilting and moving the fabric toward the left and slightly upwards.  It is like it starts to shred and then the thread gets caught in the bobbin area and it makes a big mess with several threads appearing on top of the fabrics.  I can turn the fabric while doing free motion quilting and I do not have the problem.  It seems the machine just does not handle sewing toward the left very well.
I  would like a solution to this problem too.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would like to know what to do.
Thanks!

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:
 

I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????



Re: Thread shreading

Lou Ann
 

Usually when I'm having problems with thread shredding I'm using Floriani brand.  It's supposed to be a good brand, but my 12000 doesn't like it.
 
The most thoroughly wasted of all days is that on which one has not laughed.  Nicolas Chamfort



On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 1:32 PM, "HEATHER COWAN heather-c@... [janome12000]" wrote:


 
Are you only having problems with that brand of thread?  My experience with Floriani was that it was not as tightly spun and shredded easily.   The Marathon and Madeira poly and rayon threads are problem free for me.   Marathon metallic is the best I have used for ease of use.  Some threads are finicky .... They need to come off the spool correctly and have a certain type of thread path with little tension.  Some thread just needs put in the garbage bin ..... Too much work.
Heather 

On Oct 27, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Mary Jane Weddle maryjweddle@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:

 
I too have had problems with my Floriani Thread shredding while using my 15000.  I have lowered the embroidery foot and slowed down the machine, but still experience shredding.  It seems to be worse when the machine is sewing toward the left side and slightly upward.  I have also had this problem when I am doing free motion quilting and moving the fabric toward the left and slightly upwards.  It is like it starts to shred and then the thread gets caught in the bobbin area and it makes a big mess with several threads appearing on top of the fabrics.  I can turn the fabric while doing free motion quilting and I do not have the problem.  It seems the machine just does not handle sewing toward the left very well.
I  would like a solution to this problem too.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would like to know what to do.
Thanks!

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:
 
I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????




Top Thread WOUND around bobbin while embroidering

Cat - N
 

I hope it is not inappropriate for me to ask a question, since I have not yet purchased the MC15000 on my list of things to buy.  I joined this forum to read about the 12000 and 15000 in practical use while considering which was 'right' for me, then had an opportunity to acquire a previously owned MC11000 as a 'learn/practice' embroidery machine while I decided on which model (I was also considering a Babylock dealer offer.).  I am a super newbie to machine embroidery but have wanted a machine since 2003 and almost got the MC11000 back then...but things have changed so much, I was completely 'lost' in specs, etc.  The MC11000 that I have is at v.3.10, was checked out by a dealer immediately before I had opportunity to use it, and has been at my dealer before I really began to do embroidery with it.

My question is 'what' could have gone so seriously and quickly, and dastardly 'wrong' that top thread became wound around the bobbin over the bobbin thread while embroidering? 

The embroidery 'seemed' to be going 'flawlessly' based on my 'novice perception' of what it should look like, and the machine was making a straight run of satin stitching angled from the back of the hoop toward the left front of the hoop when there was a slight noise, then the fabric/stabilizer in the hoop was 'pushed' up, and by the time I pressed the STOP button to look, the bobbin window was pushed up, as was the bobbin, and there was top thread wound around the bobbin over the bobbin thread.

I have not found any answer on the internet (yet) and am wondering if this could be caused by the thread jumping out of the take up lever...though I have no idea why that would happen halfway through a straight run...although it was moving at quite a speedy clip.  I stupidly cleared the whole top thread track without checking...duh...but I didn't think of it until later.

I would greatly appreciate any possible explanations and/or ways to avoid this EVER happening again.  I was so 'freaked' when it happened on the 11000 that I took photos of the mess, and would haul the bobbin, hoop, with fabric/design still inside, and maybe the whole machine to the dealer if it was not raining...I cannot imagine my reaction IF it had happened on a brand new 15000!

Thank you for any assistance, and if my question is inappropriate to ask in this group, I understand, and thank you as well for advising me of my indiscretion.

- Cat (Florida)

All wound up, Jim says:

There are multiple things that could cause the problem you describe, with the thread coming out of the take-up lever being only one of them. In this case my best guess would be that the bobbin case stopper was set too far forward in the machine. This was a problem with early product 11000 machines. If you bought a previously owned 11000 it could be from that era. A lot of dealers were unaware of the problem, including me. I had a couple of customers who had machines with that problem. They could sew for days, then all of a sudden the bobbin case would jump out and jam. I did not know what the problem was until I happened to take one of the machines to a service class where it was pointed out. We have not seen this type of problem on any machine since the first 11000 run, so I would not expect you to have it with a 15000.


Re: Thread shreading

HEATHER COWAN
 

Are you only having problems with that brand of thread?  My experience with Floriani was that it was not as tightly spun and shredded easily.   The Marathon and Madeira poly and rayon threads are problem free for me.   Marathon metallic is the best I have used for ease of use.  Some threads are finicky .... They need to come off the spool correctly and have a certain type of thread path with little tension.  Some thread just needs put in the garbage bin ..... Too much work.
Heather 

On Oct 27, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Mary Jane Weddle maryjweddle@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:

 

I too have had problems with my Floriani Thread shredding while using my 15000.  I have lowered the embroidery foot and slowed down the machine, but still experience shredding.  It seems to be worse when the machine is sewing toward the left side and slightly upward.  I have also had this problem when I am doing free motion quilting and moving the fabric toward the left and slightly upwards.  It is like it starts to shred and then the thread gets caught in the bobbin area and it makes a big mess with several threads appearing on top of the fabrics.  I can turn the fabric while doing free motion quilting and I do not have the problem.  It seems the machine just does not handle sewing toward the left very well.
I  would like a solution to this problem too.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would like to know what to do.
Thanks!

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:
 

I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????



Re: 5th Birthday Party!

L.C. Northcutt
 

Thank you so much, Ceil!
I am so lucky to have such an amazing group of members, both male & female!
I have just trimmed the group down from over 90 members to 65 active members with an additional "News Group Only" of nearly 20!
I now have a waiting list which I need to tackle shortly!
The support of my local Sewing Machine trader has been invaluable. He offers a 10% discount on everything!
Janome UK are also so supportive!
All best wishes,
Cathy from UK.
 
L.C.Northcutt ( www.thanetpatchwork.org.uk )


I think I must have a ghost in my 15000!

Jane Dunne
 

Hi everyone,

Strange things happened late last week and I wondered if anyone else had this happen to them!

I have been embroidering hand towels for a craft sale and had my jumpdrive(usb stick etc) in slot 1 and I did about 36 towels on speed 900 I thought! 

When I went to speed it was set at 900 but showing only 700 and so I upped it to 1000 and id shows at 800!

If I want 600 for metallic threads I need to set it at 700 or it sews at 500!

VERY weird I thought. Stitching out just fine but the machine actually did something to the designs on the jump drive too!

I had turned the machine off to see if when I turned it back on the speed settings would be correct but alas it was not to be!

So I decided pick out a design but none were showing up! I knew I had at least 20 on my stick so went downstairs to the computer and checked and low and behold they were all scrambled for lack of a better word that I can't remember right now!

So I have re formatted the jump drive and put new designs on and am ready to work today.

Jim I think it might need to be seen by the dealer who is an hour away and if I leave my machine I am not going to finish my craft sale items for Nov 21 and my Christmas embroidery and finish the three quilt tops all for Christmas.

So you can see I am in a pickle of a place right now!

By the way Jim and Diane I just wanted to let you know that Linda (the educator from Janome in Toronto Canada) thinks very highly of both of you AND your Apps!

I told her what I was doing  and asked her if she knew you guys and her answer was that you both are awesome and the apps are fabulous!

SO that is coming from Ontario Canada to you both! I just hope everyone on this list knows how much work both of you put into this group and your apps!

You need to be THANKED and I am doing that right now!

I have had no lessons on my 15000 not the dealer's fault it is just too far to go as my husband drives and what is he supposed to do while I am there so   I have totally learned to use my machine with your wonderful App!

Keep up the fantastic work you guys as you are worth your wieght in gold !


Also there is a free App for quilting calc and it is wonderful too!

It is from Robert Kaufman and just goggle it as Robert Kaufman or quilting calc.

It is so very easy to use and you don't have to do anything to find the correct yardage for binding, pieces, batting or backing etc.

Try it! I don't know how I came across it but it is wonderful and FREE!


Have fun!

Thanks,


Jane


Anticipating more ghosts as Halloween approaches, Jim says:

When you set the speed for embroidery it's important to realize that you are setting the MAXIMUM speed. The actual speed will vary with the design, simply because the longer the stitch the longer the needle needs to be out of the fabric so the hoop can move. On the 15000 you can set the maximum speed using the slide control on the front, with the SET maximum speed being the speed when the slider is all the way right. There is no reason to set the machine for anything less than the maximum in the SET screen. If you need to adjust, e.g. with metallic thread, just use the slider to slow things down.


The USB drive problem almost certainly came about due to unplugging at the wrong time. In your computer the directory must be written before you unplug the drive. You indicate your intention to unplug using the "Safe Removal of Hardware" tool in the bottom right corner of the screen. If you don't ask for permission using that tool you can wind up with the directory of the drive not being complete. No permission is needed on the machine, but you should honor the "Do not remove" and "Do not turn off" warnings that display on the screen of the machine.


Re: Problem... needing help!!

J Fraker
 

I was thinking exactly the same thing as you said.  Mine shreds occasionally well above the bobbin.  Seems to be around the take-up lever.

Ditto on the nylons.
 

From: "Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000]"
To: janome12000@...
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2015 10:44 PM
Subject: [janome12000] Re: Problem... needing help!!

 
I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????



Re: MBX5

Nicole Schmidt-Nutt
 

What does cutwork do?



On Tuesday, October 27, 2015 7:56 AM, "Anne Parker lokicat6@... [janome12000]" wrote:


 
Theresa

Ouch was my thought too - which is why I will be holding off for a while. 

I'm glad I held off from buying the Cutwork Kit, which is £199 in UK, as if I understand correctly it seems the cutwork function is included in V5 - though you would still need to buy the cutting needles at £45 a time.  I'm told the cutting needles last an awful long time though, especially as you don't use them that much, but again it would depend if you were using them to cut templates or just on fabric.

By holding off on the Cutwork Kit, and just buying the cutting needles when I do get V5, it sort of makes me feel better about spending the £350 since if I had bought the cutwork kit I would be £150 worse off when I do upgrade.

Anne
www.sewingtales.wordpress.com

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94302460@N03/sets/

"Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we should dance". Anon

 



Re: Fantastic hoop storage!

Connie
 

Linda
This is a functional and great looking hoop storage system. Please share close up photo and instructions for making this!!!

Connie S.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 26, 2015, at 8:55 PM, ceilsews <no_reply@...> wrote:

Did I miss some posts about lindabeaulieu863's fantastic hoop storage system?  I noticed it shown in the photos section.  Linda, please share your dimensions if you want to, I'd love to make something like this for my hoops, it would be perfect!
Ceil



Re: Problem... needing help!!

Mary Jane Weddle <maryjweddle@...>
 

I too have had problems with my Floriani Thread shredding while using my 15000.  I have lowered the embroidery foot and slowed down the machine, but still experience shredding.  It seems to be worse when the machine is sewing toward the left side and slightly upward.  I have also had this problem when I am doing free motion quilting and moving the fabric toward the left and slightly upwards.  It is like it starts to shred and then the thread gets caught in the bobbin area and it makes a big mess with several threads appearing on top of the fabrics.  I can turn the fabric while doing free motion quilting and I do not have the problem.  It seems the machine just does not handle sewing toward the left very well.
I  would like a solution to this problem too.  If anyone has any suggestions, I would like to know what to do.
Thanks!

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Caron Ramsey-Lewis caronmaw@... [janome12000] <janome12000@...> wrote:
 

I have the same problem with shredding on my 12000.  It is not consistent but some spools seem seem worse than others.  If it shreds while embroidering  between the needle and the top of the machine, could it still have to do with the bobbin? I would like to solve this problem as there is a lot of very bad language associated with it! Don't post much but read this group every day.

Caron
Carmichael, CA

Question:  Who owns nylons anymore????


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