Date   

Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Noelia Ruiz
 

Personally, I think that setting a last tested version to a non inexistent version is just acceptable for add-ons under development, not stable.
For this reason, and for the fact that I prefer to wait for possible changes made in NVDA before releasing the beta version, I prefer not to release even development versions of my add-ons declaring them compatible with NVDA 2019.3 until beta versions of NVDA are released.
But I think that the name latst tested version is descriptible and precisse, and it is an internal metadata only show when we press the about button of add-ons in the add-on manager, like the add-on name. This is not a flag, imo, intended to be known by users unless they decide to look the add-on metadata. This is to be use in NVDA as an internal flag.

Cheers

El 28/09/2019 a las 20:26, Travis Siegel escribió:
Yeah, but the problem we're running into now, and no doubt in the future it will get worse, is the fact that your latest tested version flag defaults to the next release version.  What happens when there's a major change, (or even a minor one) that causes something to behave differently.  Setting the last tested version to a release that hasn't happened yet is misinformation at best, and downright lying at worst. if I'm a writer of an add-on, I sure wouldn't agree that my last tested version is for one that hasn't happened yet, since I personally haven't tested it on that version.  You're mislabeling the flag, and that needs to be fixed, since it's impossible to know for a fact that your add on is compatible with a release that hasn't even happened yet.
On 9/28/2019 2:06 PM, Noelia Ruiz wrote:
Imo the current name is right, since the latest tested version can be minor of the latest supported version. For example, you probably will not to update the tested version in the manifest for developer toolkit after when NVDA 2019.-4 is released, unless the api o NVDA has important deletions and NV Access incrennt the value for the bac compatibility.


Enviado desde mi iPhone

El 28 sept 2019, a las 17:53, Andy B. <sonfire11@gmail.com> escribió:

Why don't we change lastTestedNVDAVersion to maximumSupportedNVDABersion to align with the minimumSupportedNVDAVersion flag? The purpose is much more clearly stated and is self-documenting. After all, the last tested NVDA version is nothing more than the upper limit on what the add-on author is willing to support.


Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Noelia Ruiz
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 2:39 AM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Hi, imo, the expression used (last NVDA version tested) is right, since this is not speaking about specific versions of NVDA (nor last stable, nor beta or last master or future). Instead, this reflects what version has been tested. This may be a superold version of NVDA, and in this case, when you update to a version of NVDA not tested with an installed add-on, the add-on can be blocked so that it doesn't cause instability in the system.

Also, sometimes, for practical reasons, authors say that an add-on has been tested with the upcoming version of NVDA and NVDA allows it just for testing add-ons in development, so that they can be ready when the next stable version of NVDA is released.
Cheers


El 27/09/2019 a las 20:02, Travis Siegel escribió:
I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a
version that hasn't even been released yet.

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it
last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed
attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since
it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility.  Call
it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not
last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release
that doesn't exist.  You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed
Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for
inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform
manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release
yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and
corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an
add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code
says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested
version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to
update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as
start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and
this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does
not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests,
I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of
it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA
community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who
should be contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:

  * November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their
manifests
    and do something about Python 3.
  * One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
  * NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
    change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph










Re: UIAutomation performance

francisco del roio
 

El 28/9/2019 a las 13:16, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escribió:
Not sure its uia related since the lack of a focus to a newly opened
folder in explorer or the first page in a browser seems to have been an
issue for many since I can remember. Its as if it is being missed and
the only way to make it work is to alter and return focus manually by
doing something major like opening a menu and closing it. It seems to be
one of those things that some people see all the time, while others
never do. Just guessing from your description on the alt key as I do not
use the program you mention myself.
Thanks,
Yes, issues like the ones you mentioned.

Visual Studio is UIA in its entirety, except for some parts that NVDA
recognizes as IAccessible/IAccessible2 objects. For example the Cloud
Explorer is an MSHTML document...

I think that Visual Studio is the best accessible IDE, however for some
reason there aren't so much blind developers using it, maybe because it
is focused to windows development with WPF/UWP or ASP.Net Core, and none
of these frameworks are popular in our community.

Back to the discussion, I have some monts trying to figure out where is
the problem.

Cheers,
--
Cuando tus fuerzas terminan, las de mi Dios comienzan.


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Travis Siegel
 

Yeah, but the problem we're running into now, and no doubt in the future it will get worse, is the fact that your latest tested version flag defaults to the next release version.  What happens when there's a major change, (or even a minor one) that causes something to behave differently.  Setting the last tested version to a release that hasn't happened yet is misinformation at best, and downright lying at worst.  if I'm a writer of an add-on, I sure wouldn't agree that my last tested version is for one that hasn't happened yet, since I personally haven't tested it on that version.  You're mislabeling the flag, and that needs to be fixed, since it's impossible to know for a fact that your add on is compatible with a release that hasn't even happened yet.

On 9/28/2019 2:06 PM, Noelia Ruiz wrote:
Imo the current name is right, since the latest tested version can be minor of the latest supported version. For example, you probably will not to update the tested version in the manifest for developer toolkit after when NVDA 2019.-4 is released, unless the api o NVDA has important deletions and NV Access incrennt the value for the bac compatibility.


Enviado desde mi iPhone

El 28 sept 2019, a las 17:53, Andy B. <sonfire11@gmail.com> escribió:

Why don't we change lastTestedNVDAVersion to maximumSupportedNVDABersion to align with the minimumSupportedNVDAVersion flag? The purpose is much more clearly stated and is self-documenting. After all, the last tested NVDA version is nothing more than the upper limit on what the add-on author is willing to support.


Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Noelia Ruiz
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 2:39 AM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Hi, imo, the expression used (last NVDA version tested) is right, since this is not speaking about specific versions of NVDA (nor last stable, nor beta or last master or future). Instead, this reflects what version has been tested. This may be a superold version of NVDA, and in this case, when you update to a version of NVDA not tested with an installed add-on, the add-on can be blocked so that it doesn't cause instability in the system.

Also, sometimes, for practical reasons, authors say that an add-on has been tested with the upcoming version of NVDA and NVDA allows it just for testing add-ons in development, so that they can be ready when the next stable version of NVDA is released.
Cheers


El 27/09/2019 a las 20:02, Travis Siegel escribió:
I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a
version that hasn't even been released yet.

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it
last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed
attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since
it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility. Call
it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not
last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release
that doesn't exist. You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed
Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for
inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform
manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release
yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and
corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an
add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code
says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested
version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to
update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as
start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and
this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does
not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests,
I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of
it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA
community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who
should be contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:

* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their
manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph









Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Noelia Ruiz
 

Imo the current name is right, since the latest tested version can be minor of the latest supported version. For example, you probably will not to update the tested version in the manifest for developer toolkit after when NVDA 2019.-4 is released, unless the api o NVDA has important deletions and NV Access incrennt the value for the bac compatibility.


Enviado desde mi iPhone

El 28 sept 2019, a las 17:53, Andy B. <sonfire11@gmail.com> escribió:

Why don't we change lastTestedNVDAVersion to maximumSupportedNVDABersion to align with the minimumSupportedNVDAVersion flag? The purpose is much more clearly stated and is self-documenting. After all, the last tested NVDA version is nothing more than the upper limit on what the add-on author is willing to support.


Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Noelia Ruiz
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 2:39 AM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Hi, imo, the expression used (last NVDA version tested) is right, since this is not speaking about specific versions of NVDA (nor last stable, nor beta or last master or future). Instead, this reflects what version has been tested. This may be a superold version of NVDA, and in this case, when you update to a version of NVDA not tested with an installed add-on, the add-on can be blocked so that it doesn't cause instability in the system.

Also, sometimes, for practical reasons, authors say that an add-on has been tested with the upcoming version of NVDA and NVDA allows it just for testing add-ons in development, so that they can be ready when the next stable version of NVDA is released.
Cheers


El 27/09/2019 a las 20:02, Travis Siegel escribió:
I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a
version that hasn't even been released yet.

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it
last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed
attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since
it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility. Call
it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not
last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release
that doesn't exist. You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed
Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for
inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform
manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release
yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and
corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an
add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code
says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested
version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to
update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as
start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and
this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does
not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests,
I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of
it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA
community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who
should be contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:

* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their
manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph











Re: UIAutomation performance

Brian's Mail list account
 

Not sure its uia related since the lack of a focus to a newly opened folder in explorer or the first page in a browser seems to have been an issue for many since I can remember. Its as if it is being missed and the only way to make it work is to alter and return focus manually by doing something major like opening a menu and closing it. It seems to be one of those things that some people see all the time, while others never do. Just guessing from your description on the alt key as I do not use the program you mention myself.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
Newsgroup monitored: alt.comp.blind-users

----- Original Message -----
From: "francisco del roio" <francipvb@hotmail.com>
To: "NVDA Development" <nvda-devel@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 3:58 PM
Subject: [nvda-devel] UIAutomation performance


Hello again,

I'm asking again about UIA implementation from NVDA side, because it has
a poor performance in some situations, for example with Visual Studio
2019 NuGet Package Manager.

When you search a package, you have to force a focus event by pressing
the ALT key after you press the TAB key all the time. Why is this? Is
there a timeouts problem that prevent focus event being fired? What
about other events?

Thanks,
--
Cuando tus fuerzas terminan, las de mi Dios comienzan.


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Andy B.
 

Why don't we change lastTestedNVDAVersion to maximumSupportedNVDABersion to align with the minimumSupportedNVDAVersion flag? The purpose is much more clearly stated and is self-documenting. After all, the last tested NVDA version is nothing more than the upper limit on what the add-on author is willing to support.


Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Noelia Ruiz
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 2:39 AM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Hi, imo, the expression used (last NVDA version tested) is right, since this is not speaking about specific versions of NVDA (nor last stable, nor beta or last master or future). Instead, this reflects what version has been tested. This may be a superold version of NVDA, and in this case, when you update to a version of NVDA not tested with an installed add-on, the add-on can be blocked so that it doesn't cause instability in the system.

Also, sometimes, for practical reasons, authors say that an add-on has been tested with the upcoming version of NVDA and NVDA allows it just for testing add-ons in development, so that they can be ready when the next stable version of NVDA is released.
Cheers


El 27/09/2019 a las 20:02, Travis Siegel escribió:
I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a
version that hasn't even been released yet.

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it
last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed
attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since
it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility. Call
it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not
last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release
that doesn't exist. You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed
Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for
inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform
manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release
yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and
corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an
add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code
says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested
version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to
update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as
start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and
this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does
not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests,
I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of
it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA
community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who
should be contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:

* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their
manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph






UIAutomation performance

francisco del roio
 

Hello again,

I'm asking again about UIA implementation from NVDA side, because it has
a poor performance in some situations, for example with Visual Studio
2019 NuGet Package Manager.

When you search a package, you have to force a focus event by pressing
the ALT key after you press the TAB key all the time. Why is this? Is
there a timeouts problem that prevent focus event being fired? What
about other events?

Thanks,
--
Cuando tus fuerzas terminan, las de mi Dios comienzan.


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Brian's Mail list account
 

Well I did say this at the time, but its hard to find a suitable replacement. I'd suggest that to muddy the water by saying this should work on xxx version is less committal than saying it will. I think that if it does not work, then the author hopefully will fix that as most of the big changes have already been made to cope with sound refactoring wx and python 3, so gotcha later on may well revolve around other more hard to predict stuff, which is what has been happening on and off in python 2 already, Remote add on remember?
I'm still not sure what is going on there.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
Newsgroup monitored: alt.comp.blind-users

----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Siegel" <tsiegel@softcon.com>
To: <nvda-devel@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?


I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a
version that hasn't even been released yet.

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it last
tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed attention. I
strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since it's impossible
to test a nonexistent version for compatibility. Call it expected
compatible, or next release version or something, but not last tested
version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release that doesn't
exist. You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion
in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest
checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release yet the
manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections
must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an add-on
declaring last tested version as something yet the source code says
something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested version
(and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to
update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as
start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and
this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does
not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests,
I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of it
as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA community
should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who should be
contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:

* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Noelia Ruiz
 

Hi, imo, the expression used (last NVDA version tested) is right, since this is not speaking about specific versions of NVDA (nor last stable, nor beta or last master or future). Instead, this reflects what version has been tested. This may be a superold version of NVDA, and in this case, when you update to a version of NVDA not tested with an installed add-on, the add-on can be blocked so that it doesn't cause instability in the system.

Also, sometimes, for practical reasons, authors say that an add-on has been tested with the upcoming version of NVDA and NVDA allows it just for testing add-ons in development, so that they can be ready when the next stable version of NVDA is released.
Cheers

El 27/09/2019 a las 20:02, Travis Siegel escribió:
I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a version that hasn't even been released yet.
I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility.  Call it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release that doesn't exist.  You're only confusing people.
On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3 compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python 3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync. This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes, because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <= current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a notice about it several times:

  * November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests
    and do something about Python 3.
  * One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
  * NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this
    change if adopted.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Travis Siegel
 

I'm still curious how the last tested version of a plugin can be for a version that hasn't even been released yet. 

I argued during the whole invention of this scheme that calling it last tested version was a bad idea, but apparently, nobody payed attention. I strongly urge that this parameter get a new name, since it's impossible to test a nonexistent version for compatibility.  Call it expected compatible, or next release version or something, but not last tested version, since there hasn't been any testing for a release that doesn't exist.  You're only confusing people.


On 9/26/2019 6:53 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

 

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3 compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python 3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

 

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync. This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes, because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

 

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <= current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).

 

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a notice about it several times:

 

  • November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests and do something about Python 3.
  • One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
  • NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this change if adopted.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Andy B.
 

Try and keep the technical stuff away from the typical user. As you said, they could care less, or not understand anything about Python. They just want something that works without problems.


Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Noelia Ruiz
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 11:50 PM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

As mentioned, in this discussion for me is clear that the webpage should talk about compatibility with NVDA 2019.3, or something like that, prioritizing the purpose of the informative webpage, which could serve to inform if a particular add-on will work as expected if users update NVDA 2019.2 to 2019.3.
Users may not know about Python versions or other changes in the api like speech refactor. This is useful for devs and reviewers, not for other users.
About planning times, imo add-ons should be updated before NVDA 2019.3 stable is released, sho users can update NVDA without issues. This is important for NVDa development and even donations to NV Access, since some people may be used to donate when stable versions are released (personally I try to do so generally).
Also, we can try to enforze or talk to authors about dates, but it's up to them to follow our recommendations. We can just admin the website.
This is my opinion.
Cheers


El 27/09/2019 a las 00:53, Joseph Lee escribió:
Hi all,



Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some
add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python
3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from
source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of
confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA
will say the add-on in question is incompatible.



Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion
in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest
checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release yet the
manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections
must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an add-on
declaring last tested version as something yet the source code says
something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested version
(and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync.
This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update
their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes,
because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.



As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <=
current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date.
This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at
the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include
minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a
notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon
as possible, or if the author isn't willing, NVDA community should do
it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).



If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a
notice about it several times:



* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this change
if adopted.



Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph





Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Brian's Mail list account
 

OK I do think you are right here. On e has to draw a line in the sand at some point or it gets confusing, not only to users, but those building add ons. I also do agree that if a fix is simply a couple of lines of source and the manifest, if the author has not fixed it and somebody has made it work, it should be possible for that version to be added as an unofficial dev version for testing and if it seems stable and works the modifier can be added to the author list and the add on declared stable. Not all authors are still around of course, since life is like that and it would be a great shame if functions in some of these add ons are lost just because a couple of lines of source and a manifest tweak are needed. Obviously, very complex add ons such as the pesky 3D sounds one, are probably beyond the scope of 'simple fix' solutions. grin.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 11:53 PM
Subject: [nvda-devel] Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?


Hi all,



Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some add-ons do
declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python 3 ready, others
such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from source code level but not
via the manifest. This is a point of confusion because when installing such
add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA will say the add-on in question is
incompatible.



Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion in
community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest checks. If an
add-on does use features from a given release yet the manifest says
otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections must be made before
the add-on is included. In case of an add-on declaring last tested version
as something yet the source code says something else, it still needs to be
tested in the last tested version (and newer) specified so the source code
and the manifest is in sync. This check also helps authors realize that they
do need to update their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA
changes, because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors
to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.



As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <= current
version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date.
This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at the
same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include minimum and
last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a notice should be
sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon as possible, or if the
author isn't willing, NVDA community should do it (for Classic Selection, it
is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).



If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a notice
about it several times:



* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this change
if adopted.



Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph




Re: Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

Noelia Ruiz
 

As mentioned, in this discussion for me is clear that the webpage should talk about compatibility with NVDA 2019.3, or something like that, prioritizing the purpose of the informative webpage, which could serve to inform if a particular add-on will work as expected if users update NVDA 2019.2 to 2019.3.
Users may not know about Python versions or other changes in the api like speech refactor. This is useful for devs and reviewers, not for other users.
About planning times, imo add-ons should be updated before NVDA 2019.3 stable is released, sho users can update NVDA without issues. This is important for NVDa development and even donations to NV Access, since some people may be used to donate when stable versions are released (personally I try to do so generally).
Also, we can try to enforze or talk to authors about dates, but it's up to them to follow our recommendations. We can just admin the website.
This is my opinion.
Cheers

El 27/09/2019 a las 00:53, Joseph Lee escribió:
Hi all,
Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3
compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some add-ons do
declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python 3 ready, others
such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from source code level but not
via the manifest. This is a point of confusion because when installing such
add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA will say the add-on in question is
incompatible.
Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion in
community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest checks. If an
add-on does use features from a given release yet the manifest says
otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections must be made before
the add-on is included. In case of an add-on declaring last tested version
as something yet the source code says something else, it still needs to be
tested in the last tested version (and newer) specified so the source code
and the manifest is in sync. This check also helps authors realize that they
do need to update their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA
changes, because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors
to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.
As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <= current
version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date.
This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at the
same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include minimum and
last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a notice should be
sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon as possible, or if the
author isn't willing, NVDA community should do it (for Classic Selection, it
is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).
If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a notice
about it several times:
* November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests
and do something about Python 3.
* One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
* NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this change
if adopted.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Joseph


Proposal: enforce minimum and last tested NVDA version flags for add-on reviews and certification upon 2019.3 release?

 

Hi all,

 

Yesterday there was a discussion on NVDA add-ons list about Python 3 compatibility of add-ons and state of their manifests. While some add-ons do declare 2019.3 as last tested version and are indeed Python 3 ready, others such as Classic Selection is Python 3 ready from source code level but not via the manifest. This is a point of confusion because when installing such add-ons in NVDA 2019.3, NVDA will say the add-on in question is incompatible.

 

Thus I would like to propose that when reviewing add-ons for inclusion in community add-ons website, reviewers should perform manifest checks. If an add-on does use features from a given release yet the manifest says otherwise, authors should be notified and corrections must be made before the add-on is included. In case of an add-on declaring last tested version as something yet the source code says something else, it still needs to be tested in the last tested version (and newer) specified so the source code and the manifest is in sync. This check also helps authors realize that they do need to update their manifests from time to time to keep up with NVDA changes, because ideally, reviewers should not be the ones telling authors to update their manifests unless it is necessary to do so.

 

As for when to enforce compatibility range check (minimum version <= current version <= last tested version), I propose January 1, 2020 as start date. This allows people to prepare for both NVDA 2019.3 and this check at the same time. As for what to do with add-ons that does not include minimum and last tested version flags in their manifests, I think a notice should be sent to authors so they can take care of it as soon as possible, or if the author isn’t willing, NVDA community should do it (for Classic Selection, it is Tyler Spivey who should be contacted).

 

If this proposal is adopted by the community, I propose sending out a notice about it several times:

 

  • November 1, 2019: giving authors 60 days to change their manifests and do something about Python 3.
  • One of the 2019.3 betas if NV Access agrees with this proposal.
  • NVDA 2019.3 RC and stable release: to remind users about this change if adopted.

 

Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph


The Klite Codec pack inaccessible?

Brian's Mail list account
 

Has anyone tried to update or install this recently with nvda?
I know it used to work, but now it seems many choices can be heard in screen navigation mode but not selected though some buttons do still work.
Does anyone know who to talk to for this installer?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
Newsgroup monitored: alt.comp.blind-users


I see nvda 2019.2.1 beta 1 is about now

Brian's Mail list account
 

Just noting the fact as I'd not seen it mentioned on other lists yet.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
Newsgroup monitored: alt.comp.blind-users


Re: NVDA add-on Developer toolkit 2020.1.1 is now available!

Andy B.
 

Noted for the next release…

 

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility Engineer

 

From: nvda-devel@groups.io <nvda-devel@groups.io> On Behalf Of Tage Johansson
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2019 11:26 AM
To: nvda-devel@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-devel] NVDA add-on Developer toolkit 2020.1.1 is now available!

 

Hi,

 

Seems like a very interesting addon and I should probably try it out soon.

 

I think that even if it may be obvious, it is good practise to have a section in the README which describes how to install the addon.

Nearly every README I've seen on github describes how to install/compile/run it, or there is at least a link to an installation guide. I think that a such installation instruction helps alot for new users who just want to try it out.

 

This was just a small pedantic suggestion, and I'm sorry if you think that I dig to deep into details.

 

Best regards,

Tage

 

On 9/24/2019 5:10 PM, Andy B. wrote:

Hi,

 

The NVDA add-on, Developer toolkit, is now available for download. You can find it here: https://github.com/ajborka/nvda_developer_toolkit/releases/tag/2020.1.1. This version improves Unicode support by explicitly defining Unicode strings that are compatible with Python 3. All users of DTK should test the Unicode support with NVDA 2019.1 and later. I am more interested in the results people have with NVDA alpha snaps moving forward. Please test and let me know your results, good or bad

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility Engineer

 


Re: NVDA add-on Developer toolkit 2020.1.1 is now available!

Tage Johansson
 

Hi,


Seems like a very interesting addon and I should probably try it out soon.


I think that even if it may be obvious, it is good practise to have a section in the README which describes how to install the addon.

Nearly every README I've seen on github describes how to install/compile/run it, or there is at least a link to an installation guide. I think that a such installation instruction helps alot for new users who just want to try it out.


This was just a small pedantic suggestion, and I'm sorry if you think that I dig to deep into details.


Best regards,

Tage


On 9/24/2019 5:10 PM, Andy B. wrote:

Hi,

 

The NVDA add-on, Developer toolkit, is now available for download. You can find it here: https://github.com/ajborka/nvda_developer_toolkit/releases/tag/2020.1.1. This version improves Unicode support by explicitly defining Unicode strings that are compatible with Python 3. All users of DTK should test the Unicode support with NVDA 2019.1 and later. I am more interested in the results people have with NVDA alpha snaps moving forward. Please test and let me know your results, good or bad

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility Engineer

 


NVDA add-on Developer toolkit 2020.1.1 is now available!

Andy B.
 

Hi,

 

The NVDA add-on, Developer toolkit, is now available for download. You can find it here: https://github.com/ajborka/nvda_developer_toolkit/releases/tag/2020.1.1. This version improves Unicode support by explicitly defining Unicode strings that are compatible with Python 3. All users of DTK should test the Unicode support with NVDA 2019.1 and later. I am more interested in the results people have with NVDA alpha snaps moving forward. Please test and let me know your results, good or bad

 

Andy Borka

Accessibility Engineer

 


Re: nvdaControllerClient.dll

Vincent Le Goff
 

That's a good news, thanks.

On 9/24/2019 1:56 PM, James Scholes wrote:
The controller client is implemented in C++, so is not necessarily subject to direct changes during the Python 3 transition.  I would expect any internal changes to NVDA's speech and other frameworks to be handled in a backward-compatible way.

Regards,

James Scholes

On 24/09/2019 at 11:44 am, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
Hi everyone,


Sorry for insisting on this topic, but as a developer I would appreciate if my applications remain accessible despite the change in NVDA's programming language.  In short: will I need to update the nvdaControllerClient.dll*file to "talk" to NVDA?  And if so, how will I maintain compatibility with people using older versions of NVDA?  I admit I have no idea if a dll file built for Python 2 will need to be updated for Python 3, but the date is drawing near and I will need to know what to do, if I don't want to run the risk of my applications becoming inaccessible to NVDA users.*

*
*

*Thanks in advance!*

*
*

*Vincent*

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