Date   

Re: Flamp vs flwrap for sending files - which is preferred?

C Matthew Curtin
 

On Tuesday, November 24th, 2020 at 11:46 PM, <wsanders@...> wrote:

I am organizing a demo of sending binary image files (JPGs) using nbems. Both flwrap and flamp seem to do this. But both programs don't seem to have have updates in a while. Is one preferred over the other? 

It depends on which matches your use case better.

There are two cases where FLAMP is better suited to the task. One is where you're sending something to a group. That is a different network design (transmission type) from what you get with most other transmissions especially using ARQ. After you've figured out which transmission type you need, you need to deal with your operating conditions? Poor quality circuit in HF with interference and fading is an entirely different animal from a good circuit with VHF line-of-sight. Good VHF but via a repeater is a third variation to consider.

Remember, there are three types of transmissions:
 Broadcast: One station to every other station, whoever listens, not typically two-way
 Multicast: One station to a group of stations, typically two way
 Unicast: One station to one other station, typically two-way

On Buckeye Net Mixed-Mode (ARRL Ohio Section HF traffic net) we control the net with voice procedure and net control moves stations to other channels for movement of traffic. Where there is book traffic, a bulletin, or something with multiple recipients, the procedure is easy. After stations get to the right place for digital transmission:

 1. Sender indicates traffic to follow AAA BBB CCC DE ZZZ QTC 2 K
 2. Each station answers in net order
 3. DE AAA QRV / DE BBB QRV / DE CCC QRV
 4. Sender transmits with FLAMP (one message only)
 5. Each station (in order) hits the Report button
 6. Sender gets any missing blocks, and retransmits (possibly kicking mode down to something more robust if anyone has bad copy)
 7. Recipients who already have the message do not answer; recipients needing fills hit the Report button in order
 8. The retransmit/report loop is continued until everyone has the message or times out; our local procedure is to stop trying after three transmits, just leave it as-is and clean it up later
 9. Sender goes on to the next message and does the same until all stations have the messages or attempts timeout
 10. All stations return to net control channel and report (voice procedure) success or NO JOY, they work out who can hear what, and maybe another station (who just got the block needed) will be sent with station(s) needing fill(s) to a data channel to use the Relay feature to get the fills done.

This procedure works really effectively. Yesterday's net did this and we got 35 message acknowledgements from five different stations on two bands (control and original transmission on 60m, some relays on 75m/80m) plus a fill request sent via commercial text from a receive-only station using a ground wire.

FLWRAP will give you a checksum around the file, so you can get an integrity check that way but if you have any problem at all, you don't know where it is and need to resend the whole message. It will work for any mode: broadcast, multicast, or unicast.

FLARQ or ARQ in FLMSG would require doing what we did above to break everything down into a tree of relays, with an enormous number of retransmissions of the entire message. On the other hand if you've got a lot of unicast relay going on (more typical for traffic nets), using ARQ with FLMSG might work just fine for you if you've got a good circuit. This is typical on VHF/UHF, though as others pointed out you might need to deal with repeater issues and so on. The modems that you use will also be something to work out. Trying ARQ with a mode that's robust in poor HF conditions is probably not going to work. We've found deadlocks are surprisingly easy to create.

There's a slide deck describing more about how the net works and whatnot at https://www.blackswancomex.org/2021/prepare.

So back to your situation: are you sending the images to one station? A group? Anyone who gets it? Do you need acknowledgment? Do you want to retransmit the whole thing in case of error, or do you want to send fills? By what procedure will you fill? Each of the tools will approach the problems in different ways and you'll need to select the set most appropriate for what you want people to spend their operating time doing. Good luck!

Matt KD8TTE


Re: Flamp vs flwrap for sending files - which is preferred?

Charles Hargrove
 

Fast turnaround times is needed for the quick back and forth of ARQ when
only two stations are connecting to each other. This is not a problem
when just using a straightforward transmission. If the signal path is
an issue with dropped bits, using a combination of a mode with FEC and/or
FLamp solves that issue. That's how we do it in NYC, even with linked
repeaters if we leave a slightly longer tune signal before the RsID is
sent. Every Monday night net we use 8PSK500F with FLamp for the data
part of our weekly net. It even gets through with some jamming. :)

On 11/25/2020 7:34 AM, K3eui via groups.io wrote:
In Chester County (PA) we were able to successfully use the ARQ option of sending a FLMSG with a few modes.
However, the repeater needs to have a fast "drop" and the SignaLink or Rigblaster Delay (DLY) needed to be set to a very short time.
We fiddled around with the timing, but finally did get ARQ to work using MFSK128. However, turn off the TxID feature. We were amazed at how well it worked.
Likely not every FM repeater is capable of these fast turn around times.
k3eui Barry
(Phila region)
On Nov 24, 2020, at 11:46 PM, wsanders@wsanders.net <mailto:wsanders@wsanders.net> wrote:

I am organizing a demo of sending binary image files (JPGs) using nbems. Both flwrap and flamp seem to do this. But both programs don't seem to have have new updates in a while. Is one preferred over the other?

I like flarq best since it can send and receive files without the extra drag and drop step of flwrap. Flwrap works, though, although without any block level integrity checks.

I am using the Mac versions of nbems and the flmsg-ARQ option does not seem to be present in flmsgi. Like flarq I don't think it would work through a repeater with a slow turnaround time anyway.

In conclusion, flarq seems to be a good choice, but is it going to be sticking around for a while?

Wiley KF6IIU
--
Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV
NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.

NYC-ARECS/RACES Nets 147.360/107.2 PL
ARnewsline Broadcast Mon. @ 8:00PM
NYC-ARECS Weekly Net Mon. @ 8:30PM
http://www.nyc-arecs.org

NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM
on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32

"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped
by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan

"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." - Tacitus

"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying
(The work praises the man.)

"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it
provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan


Re: Flamp vs flwrap for sending files - which is preferred?

K3eui
 

In Chester County (PA) we were able to successfully use the ARQ option of sending a FLMSG with a few modes.

However, the repeater needs to have a fast "drop" and the SignaLink or Rigblaster Delay (DLY) needed to be set to a very short time.

We fiddled around with the timing, but finally did get ARQ to work using MFSK128. However, turn off the TxID feature. We were amazed at how well it worked.

Likely not every FM repeater is capable of these fast turn around times.

k3eui Barry
(Phila region)



On Nov 24, 2020, at 11:46 PM, wsanders@... wrote:

I am organizing a demo of sending binary image files (JPGs) using nbems. Both flwrap and flamp seem to do this. But both programs don't seem to have have new updates in a while. Is one preferred over the other? 

I like flarq best since it can send and receive files without the extra drag and drop step of flwrap. Flwrap works, though, although without any block level integrity checks.

I am using the Mac versions of nbems and the flmsg-ARQ option does not seem to be present in flmsgi. Like flarq I don't think it would work through a repeater with a slow turnaround time anyway. 

In conclusion, flarq seems to be a good choice, but is it going to be sticking around for a while?

Wiley KF6IIU

 


Flamp vs flwrap for sending files - which is preferred?

wsanders@...
 
Edited

I am organizing a demo of sending binary image files (JPGs) using nbems. Both flwrap and flamp seem to do this. But both programs don't seem to have have updates in a while. Is one preferred over the other? 

I like flarq best since it can send and receive files without the extra drag and drop step of flwrap. Flwrap works, though, although without any block level integrity checks.

I am using the Mac versions of nbems and the flmsg-ARQ option does not seem to be present in flmsg. Like flarq I don't think it would work through a repeater with a slow turnaround time anyway. 

In conclusion, flarq seems to be a good choice, but is it going to be sticking around for a while?

Wiley KF6IIU

 


Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

 

Brian,

From my limited knowledge of HTML it looks like there is a difference between Winlink and Flmsg coding. I can make the form appear in the Custom Forms section of Flmsg but if I select the form it shows invalid HTML format. That is where you have to get help from an HTML programmer. I'm not sure who to contact.

Ron NY3J

On 11/24/20 11:28 AM, Brian K7BLS wrote:
Ron

Thanks for the link on Custom Forms. The forms that I got from WinLinkExpress do not have either of those two Meta Names. 

Fundamental Question - can forms filled in on FLMSG be decoded on WinLink Express, and can forms filled in on WinLink Express be decoded on FLMSG? Is it just a matter of having the right HTML coding included and use the same exact file name? If you don’t know, who can I contact?


Rob

The standard FLMSG install created the folder CUSTOM with all caps. The forms that came with the install in that folder are visible in the dropdown on FLMSG. It’s the imported ones that are not visible. 

Thanks both of you
Brian



On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:46 AM, Ron NY3J via groups.io <rwenig@...> wrote:

 Brian,

The Flmsg online help has a tutorial on how to create Custom Forms. Here's a link to the section.

http://www.w1hkj.com/flmsg-help/index.html#sCustomForms

There are 2 META NAME entries that have to be made. Also, there are HTML coding that has to be correct before it is recognized by Flmsg. I tried to do this for the Weather Form that is in Winlink Express. Just adding the META NAME didn't work. I've been trying to learn HTML coding to be able to create Custom Forms for my local area. I think this is a powerful application for emergency communications.

73, Ron NY3J

On 11/23/20 10:49 PM, Brian K7BLS wrote:

I'm re-sending my message because a line was missing -

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

meta name="MENU_ITEM" content="ICS-213 RR"

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?




Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

Brian K7BLS
 

Ron

Thanks for the link on Custom Forms. The forms that I got from WinLinkExpress do not have either of those two Meta Names. 

Fundamental Question - can forms filled in on FLMSG be decoded on WinLink Express, and can forms filled in on WinLink Express be decoded on FLMSG? Is it just a matter of having the right HTML coding included and use the same exact file name? If you don’t know, who can I contact?


Rob

The standard FLMSG install created the folder CUSTOM with all caps. The forms that came with the install in that folder are visible in the dropdown on FLMSG. It’s the imported ones that are not visible. 

Thanks both of you
Brian



On Nov 24, 2020, at 3:46 AM, Ron NY3J via groups.io <rwenig@...> wrote:

 Brian,

The Flmsg online help has a tutorial on how to create Custom Forms. Here's a link to the section.

http://www.w1hkj.com/flmsg-help/index.html#sCustomForms

There are 2 META NAME entries that have to be made. Also, there are HTML coding that has to be correct before it is recognized by Flmsg. I tried to do this for the Weather Form that is in Winlink Express. Just adding the META NAME didn't work. I've been trying to learn HTML coding to be able to create Custom Forms for my local area. I think this is a powerful application for emergency communications.

73, Ron NY3J

On 11/23/20 10:49 PM, Brian K7BLS wrote:

I'm re-sending my message because a line was missing -

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

meta name="MENU_ITEM" content="ICS-213 RR"

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?



Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

Romeo Hotel One Two
 

If I am reading your issue correctly, check your .nbems folder for how Custom is spelled.  If the program is trying to look in the "Custom" (uppercase C and lowercase everything else) folder and you placed your .html files in the "CUSTOM" (all uppercase) folder, the software isn't going to see them. 


Rob


On 11/23/20 10:42 PM, Brian K7BLS wrote:

Thanks for the quick response

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?


Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

 

Brian,

The Flmsg online help has a tutorial on how to create Custom Forms. Here's a link to the section.

http://www.w1hkj.com/flmsg-help/index.html#sCustomForms

There are 2 META NAME entries that have to be made. Also, there are HTML coding that has to be correct before it is recognized by Flmsg. I tried to do this for the Weather Form that is in Winlink Express. Just adding the META NAME didn't work. I've been trying to learn HTML coding to be able to create Custom Forms for my local area. I think this is a powerful application for emergency communications.

73, Ron NY3J

On 11/23/20 10:49 PM, Brian K7BLS wrote:

I'm re-sending my message because a line was missing -

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

meta name="MENU_ITEM" content="ICS-213 RR"

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?



Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

Brian K7BLS
 

I'm re-sending my message because a line was missing -

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

meta name="MENU_ITEM" content="ICS-213 RR"

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?


Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

Brian K7BLS
 

Thanks for the quick response

I changed one of the html files to ARC_213_MESSAGE_INITIAL.html and it still did not appear in the dropdown Form > Customer

I grabbed this form from WinLink Express since in the County where I live most of the AuxComm hams use that software.

I looked in the .html file of one of the flmsg forms that appears on the dropdown and it included this statement

ICS-213 RR is what appears in the dropdown list.

In the file from WindLinkExpress did NOT have statement with MENU_ITEM

Do I need to add that for FLMSG?


Re: Added Custom Forms not appearing

Romeo Hotel One Two
 

Check your file folders for all upper case versus upper and lower.  It does make a difference.


Rob

K4BCN



On 11/23/20 7:29 PM, Brian K7BLS wrote:

FLMSG 4.0.17 on Raspberry Pi

I copied several .html forms into /home/pi/.nbems/CUSTOM

When I go to Form > Custom I do not see the new forms I added.

Suggestions?

73 Brian K7BLS


Added Custom Forms not appearing

Brian K7BLS
 

FLMSG 4.0.17 on Raspberry Pi

I copied several .html forms into /home/pi/.nbems/CUSTOM

When I go to Form > Custom I do not see the new forms I added.

Suggestions?

73 Brian K7BLS


Re: File 2020.NOV.AndFlmsgPresentation.KI7MBR..pdf deleted #file-notice

Ole Helgerson KI7MBR
 

Hi all,

Apologies for the confusion.  After uploading, I observed that the file would not open and then that there were a couple of minor mods to make.  I made the changes, deleted the first attempt and  uploaded the current version as a zip folder thinking it might save some file space. It did but not very much.

The modifications include referencing tablets (per earlier audience feedback) and emphasizing relay capabilities without getting things too complicated for an introductory presentation.  Also redacted personal info on the example ICS319 form images over privacy concerns.

It is now in the "files" section as; 2020.NOV.AndFlmsgPresentationODP.KI7MBR.r.zip

I hope it generates some interest in exploring and learning AndFlmsg and FlDigi.

73,  KI7MBR Ole


File 2020.NOV.AndFlmsgPresentation.KI7MBR..pdf deleted #file-notice

nbems@groups.io Notification <noreply@...>
 

The following files have been deleted from the Files area of the nbems@groups.io group.

  • 2020.NOV.AndFlmsgPresentation.KI7MBR..pdf

By: Ole Helgerson KI7MBR


Re: flrig 1.3.52.11 posted at

Pat
 

i downloaded the upgrade.. ts-480
and would not open.. tryed to config.. I got that window opened
and radio said was connected .. but the disappeared
went back to older version and was ok after a reboot of the cpu
my Ethernet would not work after the trying the config the ts-480.
got scared for a bit.
Murf
n7uvh
.
 


flrig 1.3.52.11 posted at

Dave
 

http://www.w1hkj.com/alpha/flrig/

Sat Nov 21 12:00:00 2020 -0500  Version 1.3.52.11

  OpenBSD
    * Add serial port discovery for OpenBSD

  Xiegu G90 etal
    * Correctly parse Xiegu G90 power output in tenths of watts
    * Add XML-RPC API: rig.get_pwrmeter_scale. Divide rig.get_pwrmeter by
      this value to get the actual value in watts.
    * Add XML-RPC API: rig.get_swrmeter (currently broken with G90 since it
      seemingly always outputs 0)

  FT757GX2
    * adde Yaesu FT-757GX2 transceiver

  Cmd Buttons
    * fix issue with commands 17-24

  FTdx101D
    * Correct read ALC

  IC705
    * change power set/get to % of full power

  commands
    * fix read/write of commands to status file

  FT450D
    * add AGC button
    * relabel IPO button

  Extras dialog
    * change tab labels for better fit on Pi & macOS

  FT-991/A
    * FT991A
      - Correct FT991A mic gain, values are 0 .. 100.
      - FT-991A split
        . The FT-991/A does not support the FR CAT command
        . change to use RI (Radio Information) CAT command
      - Add 50ms delay between setting PTT and reading
        . corrects timing problems with WSJTX.
    * FT991, clean up class code structures

  Remove superfluous ceil call in get_rf_gain() as the cast to int truncates it anyway.

  FT450D / TS-480SAT
    * Change for loops to while loops.
    * Simplify logic in some places.
    * Fix RF slider values on the FT-450D which were inverted

  CPU optimization
    * added new --enable-optimizations options to ./configure
      - RaspberryPi 1,2,3,4 [rpi1, rpi2, rpi3, rpi4]
      - BeagleBone Black [bbb]
      - Cyclone5 [cyclone5]
      - Optimize for sse4 [sse4]
      - Use AVX extensions [avx, avx2]
      - i486, i686 [i486, i686]
      - x86-64 [x86-64]
      - ARM CPU-native [nativeARM]

  Font Browser
    * fix segmentation fault

73, David, W1HKJ


Re: AndFlmsg Introductory presentation pdf file posted

John (vk2eta)
 

Thanks for sharing Ole.

73, John (VK2ETA)


AndFlmsg Introductory presentation pdf file posted

Ole Helgerson KI7MBR
 

Greetings,

I posted a pdf of a 24 slide introductory presentation on AndFlmsg that I gave to two audiences this November 2020.

The file name; 2020.NOV.AndFlmsgPresentation.KI7MBR.

The central goal was to demonstrate that AndFlmsg+android phone+HT radio = low cost, easy to use, data logger and transmitter for emcomm use.

The thoughts reflect my own perspective and may not reflect the practice or policy of any amateur radio organizations that I am currently a member of.

It is hoped that sharing this presentation provides a starting point toward achieving timely and accurate field data acquisition and forwarding to the end user.

Please feel free to adapt or use as you wish. Please credit using "....as adapted from KI7MBR 2020..." or something similar.

Kind thanks to John VK2ETA for recently adding SMS ability to AndFlmsg and to Dave W1HJK and team for the FLDigi suite.

Feedback welcome.  73, KI7MBR Ole Helgerson


Receive audio not resuming after transmit -- fldigi 4.1.16

Mark Hunn - KI7SI
 

I'm installing fldigi on computer that's new to my shack and am getting an error where the program does not resume receiving audio after transmitting. I'm running fldgi 4.1.16 under Windows 10 on a Microsoft Surface Pro 3. The radio is an ICOM IC-7300 and I'm using its internal soundcard over USB with port audio and the appropriate devices selected. On initial boot of the program everything appears normal with signals appearing in the waterfall. On the first attempt to transmit, the waterfall shifts to monitoring the outgoing signal as expected, but when the program attempts to return to receive, the waterfall freezes and nothing is decoded. Subsequent attempts to transmit succeed, but the program will not successfully return to receive. Here's what the event log is showing:



I'm not having any difficulty with Winlink Express and VARA HF, so I don't believe this is a hardware issue on my end, and VARA shifting between transmit and receive leads me to believe that it's not a strictly Windows issue.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Mark


Re: AndFlmsg

Ole Helgerson KI7MBR
 

edit;.... further useful perspective on FlDigi and AndFlmsg...

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