Date   

Re: NBEMS Testing Schedule

Ed <autek@...>
 

Dave AFA1HV wrote:
There seems to be a pactor station there. I did hear you and N3NR chatting 2 down here in South Jersey. You were a bit weak and fading but N3NR was a solid +20. After you signed I tried to call both of you but it didn't happen.
Dave WB2HVF
Dave, right after I signed with Tim, a quick pitstop and then an afternoon cup of coffee. Sorry I missed you. I do appreciate the signal report, that was 20 watts from an Icom 735 and a homebrew vertical. I'm impressed with fldigi/flarq as an emergency tool. The next order of business is to read and study the help files....

Ed W3NR


Re: NBEMS Testing Schedule

larrytkc@...
 


N4UM - strong signal into KC metro this evening!
Lots of power line noise at my QTH tonight, so copy would be difficult for any mode.

Larry kb0emb

---- Paste of copied text below ----

mFSK mode 3-04-2008 ~0120 UTC - 10.137 mhz

KE3Y KE3Y KE3Y de N4UM N4UM N4UM k
ttpotpj enfu:Mck r*tKE3Y KE3Y KE3Y de N4UM N4UM N4UM k
 tqS"lft:9kxW  N*tK1f eR  Neo edonf o   n0 e w Fni,eo Z  siSnS ok* secltdvet h
 en mmt:wvgE ocatct KE3Y de N4mYes.  Don't make it a big one tho.  Try to use a small block size... either 16 or 31... go o0endR  o Rk rg fconing.   KE3Y de N4UM

---- end of paste -----


Signal Report NBEMS Testing

"Jeff Moore" <tnetcenter@...>
 

Just wanted to give you guys a signal report.
 
I was able to hear KE3Y pretty good most of time here in Central Oregon.  N4UM OTOH was mostly unreadable, although I did manage to get at least 2 of his beacons on MFSK.
 
Band conditions here were not very good, with a lot of severe fading, and it looks as though you two had problems as well.
 
At one point after you were on PSK63 another signal (I'm not sure what it was but it was very wideband) clobbered both you.  Shortly after that you switched to MFSK and I was able to copy  some of that.
 
I would've tried to join in, but I'm not yet transmit capable.  Soon!
 
Jeff Moore KE7ACY
Bend, Oregon
 
P.S. you're still at as I write this!
 

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [NBEMSham] Tuesday 3/4 1800 & 0100 Z

Tim,
I saw you on air Monday but I was using another program. Domino.

I will be there tonight (Tuesday) at 0100Z. MFSK16.

For the rest of you, I WILL ALSO BEACON TODAY AT NOON CST (1800z). Same
details, MFSK16. After establishing contact, I will ask if you want to
go to PSK125, the fastest mode available in my NBEMS software, for the
file transfer.

Beaconing with a slow mode gives enough time to tune in. Beaconing with
PSK125 doesn't give time to tune in the signal, especially if you beacon
further apart than 15 seconds. That's my experience. Looking forward to
copying someone. I will have a 4KByte com file, TED.COM, ready to
transmit for the test.

Travis Hardin KE3Y
Huntsville, Alabama

tim.n4um wrote:
>
> Hello everybody. I'm a real newbie at NBEMS but would like to become
> more familiar with it. I'll make a special effort to be on 10.137 plus
> 1.5 audio at 0100Z for the next week or so. I'll be beaconing on
> MFSK. I can't make it this evening but will be on beginning tomorrow
> night (Tuesday night EST). If you'd like to set up a sked for some
> other time and frequency please e-mail me.
>
> Tim, N4UM

 

.


ted.com

Ed <autek@...>
 

OK, I give....what is it and where is it. In DOS days long ago, ted was a nifty little text editor.

Ed W3NR


NBEMS TESTING

"tim.n4um" <N4UM@...>
 

Thanks for signal reports. 30 meters can be a tough band in the
evenings! For what it's worth, KE3Y and I found that MFSK16 was a bit
faster(257 seconds) than PSK63 (320 seconds) in sending a 512 byte file
under lousy conditions with static and fading.


Re: ted.com

"kh6ty" <hteller@...>
 

TED for DOS! That brings back fond memories! TED.COM was my favorite for years. Maybe written by Tom Kihlken? Can't remember...

Travis, KE3Y, wants to use it to test the binary transfer of NBEMS, and is TED.COM 4K in size. Good choice, I think, and I would not mind trying TED.COM again! :-)

73, Skip

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed" <autek@...>
To: <NBEMSham@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: [NBEMSham] ted.com


OK, I give....what is it and where is it. In DOS days long ago, ted was
a nifty little text editor.

Ed W3NR


New file uploaded to NBEMSham

NBEMSham@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the NBEMSham
group.

File : /Short test files/TED.COM
Uploaded by : travhardin <ke3y@...>
Description : DOS tiny editor from 1988 - 3200 bytes com file

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NBEMSham/files/Short%20test%20files/TED.COM

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

travhardin <ke3y@...>


NBEMS Testing

Ed <autek@...>
 

Tonite.......7:30 till 8:30 EST

3582 +1500
PSK63

I will call cq nbems test, if we can make a connect then I'll start the beacon and have a file ready to send once the connection is made to flarq. We will try PSK63 first and go from there.

Ed W3NR
Chickamauga,GA


Re: NBEMS Testing

"Bill McLaughlin" <bmc@...>
 

Hi Ed,

I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?

See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.

73,

Bill N9DSJ

--- In NBEMSham@..., Ed <autek@...> wrote:

Tonite.......7:30 till 8:30 EST

3582 +1500
PSK63

I will call cq nbems test, if we can make a connect then I'll start the
beacon and have a file ready to send once the connection is made to
flarq. We will try PSK63 first and go from there.

Ed W3NR
Chickamauga,GA


Re: NBEMS Testing

"dahupmich" <ki8af@...>
 

Hi All,

Bill glad you heard me in there. Eventually Ed connected with me for a
short one but then lots of QRM with RTTY on one side and MFSK on the
other. Ed helped me out with the "Plain Talk" box so I learned
something new tonight. I had some trouble with the rig wanted to key
up unexpectedly so I need to check that out. I also heard N4UM, WB2HVF
and KE3Y in there. I can't do any testing tomorrow evening but will
give it a try again on Friday.

73,Greg
KI8AF
from da U.P. of Michigan
--- In NBEMSham@..., "Bill McLaughlin" <bmc@...> wrote:

Hi Ed,

I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?

See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.

73,

Bill N9DSJ




--- In NBEMSham@..., Ed <autek@> wrote:

Tonite.......7:30 till 8:30 EST

3582 +1500
PSK63

I will call cq nbems test, if we can make a connect then I'll
start the
beacon and have a file ready to send once the connection is made to
flarq. We will try PSK63 first and go from there.

Ed W3NR
Chickamauga,GA


Re: NBEMS Testing

Ed <autek@...>
 

Bill McLaughlin wrote:
Hi Ed,
I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?
See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.
73,
Bill N9DSJ
First off, thanks to all who tried to connect. KI8AF was the weakest and the only one to successfully connect. WB2HVF was the strongest, but we never did connect. Then a MFSK-16 station opened up right on frequency, so I moved up band a little. Only to be clobbered by a RTTY station calling CQ. I have my TX locked, but I noticed my AFC had to move quite a bit to copy some of you.

Here is the lineup for tomorrow. I'll be on 3578.5 +1500 at 5:00 A.M EST in the morning. If that QRG is busy Ill try 3576.0 +1500 and will CQ and beacon for an hour PSK63. The evening foray will depend on the YL's plans.

I was dismayed to see that one of the offending MFSK-16 stations is a member of this list. Hopefully the QRM was unintentional.

Good night all...73 and thanks again.

Ed W3NR

Using fldigi/flarq Linux version of NBEMS


Re: NBEMS Testing Wednesday

"travhardin" <ke3y@...>
 

Hi Ed (W3NR),

I was in there at 6:30 CST Wednesday and heard you well. Lots of other
stations did too. Another station and I moved down below you. Then we
moved again. Then we moved up to 3596. If I was the interfering
station (I don't think I was), is was certainly not intentional, and I
am sorry.

You may want to go back and read message #159 from KH6TY, one of the
program developers. Calling "CQ NBEMS" is the best way to start.
Beacon ONLY after establishing contact with ONE station. NBEMS is a
one-on-one mode, it appears. You must narrow the contact down to one
station by writing in the VBDIGI window. Then you as station 1 ask the
selected station to beacon, again by writing in the VBDIGI window.
After station 2 beacons, you -- station 1 -- will soon see station 2's
call letters appear in the top box in FLARC. When the call letters
appear, you -- station 1 -- then select "Connect". The two
transmitters will AUTOMATICALLY query each other a couple of times.
After both stations get a green diamond, either one of you can send a
file, and write coordinating messages in the very bottom line of the
plain talk box.

Any other stations on the frequency may as well move somewhere else
for an hour. The "net control" may want to let them coordinate on
frequency before beginning a transfer himself.

During the file transfer process, the program activates both
transmitters when it needs to. The received file appears in
C:&#92;NBEMS&#92;ARQrecv. File sizes of 500 bytes are appropriate for testing.
Takes about 4 minutes in MFSK16.

The method has worked for me several times. If the path is noisy you
may lose the green diamond. You simply re-beacon. Station 2, when he
sees your call letters in the box, selects "Connect" and the handshake
continues. (It doesn't matter which station beacons and which station
presses "Connect")

I hope if there are corrections or improvements to this the developers
will correct me.

Travis Hardin, KE3Y
Huntsville, Alabama

--- In NBEMSham@..., Ed <autek@...> wrote:

Bill McLaughlin wrote:
Hi Ed,

I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?

See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.

73,

Bill N9DSJ
First off, thanks to all who tried to connect. KI8AF was the weakest
and
the only one to successfully connect. WB2HVF was the strongest, but we
never did connect. Then a MFSK-16 station opened up right on frequency,
so I moved up band a little. Only to be clobbered by a RTTY station
calling CQ. I have my TX locked, but I noticed my AFC had to move quite
a bit to copy some of you.

Here is the lineup for tomorrow. I'll be on 3578.5 +1500 at 5:00 A.M
EST
in the morning. If that QRG is busy Ill try 3576.0 +1500 and will CQ
and
beacon for an hour PSK63. The evening foray will depend on the YL's
plans.

I was dismayed to see that one of the offending MFSK-16 stations is a
member of this list. Hopefully the QRM was unintentional.

Good night all...73 and thanks again.

Ed W3NR

Using fldigi/flarq Linux version of NBEMS


Re: NBEMS Testing Wednesday

w1hkj <w1hkj@...>
 

I would say that you have a good understanding of the process Travis.

73, Dave, W1HKJ


Re: NBEMS Testing

Dave AFA1HV <afa1hv@...>
 

Hi everyone.
It was an interesting test to say the least.
After discontinuing my attempts to allow someone else to try, I noticed the MFSK stations moved up a bit. In reading the mail they feel we stepped on their toes. If I did, I'm sorry. I think part of the misunderstanding with other operators is the fact that once we go into the ARQ or beacon mode we are in a semi-automatic mode but they, not understanding the new system, feel they can jump in on the frequency if no one else comes back.
I have had a successful connect several weeks ago and I did show a connect to you Ed but I do not know your end confirmed it. You had a good strong signal here also and it should have worked. Our direct keyboard to keyboard seemed to work ok.
But this is what BETA testing is all about.
Maybe we need to do our psk testing more toward the psk area of the band.

Ed wrote:


Bill McLaughlin wrote:
Hi Ed,

I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?

See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.

73,

Bill N9DSJ
First off, thanks to all who tried to connect. KI8AF was the weakest and
the only one to successfully connect. WB2HVF was the strongest, but we
never did connect. Then a MFSK-16 station opened up right on frequency,
so I moved up band a little. Only to be clobbered by a RTTY station
calling CQ. I have my TX locked, but I noticed my AFC had to move quite
a bit to copy some of you.

Here is the lineup for tomorrow. I'll be on 3578.5 +1500 at 5:00 A.M EST
in the morning. If that QRG is busy Ill try 3576.0 +1500 and will CQ and
beacon for an hour PSK63. The evening foray will depend on the YL's plans.

I was dismayed to see that one of the offending MFSK-16 stations is a
member of this list. Hopefully the QRM was unintentional.

Good night all...73 and thanks again.

Ed W3NR

Using fldigi/flarq Linux version of NBEMS


Re: NBEMS Testing

Dave AFA1HV <afa1hv@...>
 

I should have signed this,
Dave WB2HVF

Dave AFA1HV wrote:


Hi everyone.
It was an interesting test to say the least.
After discontinuing my attempts to allow someone else to try, I noticed
the MFSK stations moved up a bit. In reading the mail they feel we
stepped on their toes. If I did, I'm sorry. I think part of the
misunderstanding with other operators is the fact that once we go into
the ARQ or beacon mode we are in a semi-automatic mode but they, not
understanding the new system, feel they can jump in on the frequency if
no one else comes back.
I have had a successful connect several weeks ago and I did show a
connect to you Ed but I do not know your end confirmed it. You had a
good strong signal here also and it should have worked. Our direct
keyboard to keyboard seemed to work ok.
But this is what BETA testing is all about.
Maybe we need to do our psk testing more toward the psk area of the band.

Ed wrote:

Bill McLaughlin wrote:
Hi Ed,

I see a a few there: yourself, WB2HVF, KI8AF and N4UM. Perhaps once
connected the beacon should not activate?

See colliding signals due to that. Signals from all were very good but
a bit congested.

73,

Bill N9DSJ
First off, thanks to all who tried to connect. KI8AF was the weakest and
the only one to successfully connect. WB2HVF was the strongest, but we
never did connect. Then a MFSK-16 station opened up right on frequency,
so I moved up band a little. Only to be clobbered by a RTTY station
calling CQ. I have my TX locked, but I noticed my AFC had to move quite
a bit to copy some of you.

Here is the lineup for tomorrow. I'll be on 3578.5 +1500 at 5:00 A.M EST
in the morning. If that QRG is busy Ill try 3576.0 +1500 and will CQ and
beacon for an hour PSK63. The evening foray will depend on the YL's
plans.

I was dismayed to see that one of the offending MFSK-16 stations is a
member of this list. Hopefully the QRM was unintentional.

Good night all...73 and thanks again.

Ed W3NR

Using fldigi/flarq Linux version of NBEMS


Re: testing

hteller <hteller@...>
 

The station was a Pactor-3 station. The frequency was 10.137. In the US, Pactor 3 operated automatically is only allowed on 30m from 10.150 to 10.140, so if a Winlink station, that Pactor 3 station was operating illegally. Although possible for keyboard to keyboard operation, and fast image transfer, it does not appear that there is any non-automatic Pactor-3 operations on the bands. Winlink PMBO, VE2AFQ, also operates Pactor-3 just below 14.070. He is Canadian, and not REQUIRED to adhere to FCC regulations, but Canada just signed on to the IARU Region 2 bandplan, which does not allow Pactor 3 outside the US autosubands. Why is he ignoring the IARU bandplan? Why is he allowed access to the Winlink CMS servers if he is not going to adhere to the IARU bandplan?

I have nothing against Pactor 3 stations, as long as they adhere to internationally agreed upon bandplans or FCC regulations and do not increase in bandwidth without first checking for adjacent signals (impossible, of course). Of course, nobody without an SCS modem can tell who the Pactor-3 station was.

In addition, three times, a PropNet station regularly came on top of our NBEMS QSO. It is unreasonable to believe he could not have copied either me or N4UM, but it transmitted anyway, obviously under illegal automatic operation (not listening first) outside of the beacon band. Such activities belong in the auto subbands or beacon bands so everyone else who does check for activity first, because there is a live operator to listen, can also operate in our SHARED bands.

Winlink's network obviously can be very useful for some kinds of emcomm traffic as well as for free email for sailors, but there is no reason for their members not to operate according to the rules everyone else must follow. Winlink could not get their job done with narrowband modes, so there is a place for wider modes that can handle deep QSB fades. NBEMS is still considering all modes, and for HF, will have to use some wider modes, such as MFSK16 or DominoEx, to be able to handle QRN that the faster PSK modes cannot, as we have now discovered.

NBEMS is not a mode, but a *system* of software, suggested bands and antennas, and operating practices, intended to provide "johnny on the spot" emcomm in a distributed way that existing systems cannot do. Using PSK63 as a base mode is best for that because all NBEMS stations will be found in one known place by any station that can help with forwarding. We intend to get the job accomplished by using narrowband modes whenever possible, but the job must get done, and if it takes wider modes to do that, we will have to incorporate them into the NBEMS system, but it is unlikely we will have to go wider than 500 Hz. Throughput is a tradeoff between bandwidth, file size, and robustness. What is not known with current systems, or even NBEMS yet, is the amount of time spent trying just to get a connection. We think our distributed system will eventually provide enough forwarding stations so connection times are very fast. The saving in time can much greater than systems which use wider bandwidth modes, but less forwarding stations (there is only so much space available - phone ops can verify that!). Even during the Winlink MARS test, the commander reported that local connectivity was not possible because of propagation, so it was necessary to connect with a station far away, in Utah. You know what that means - a lot of time was wasted trying to connect locally, which probably more than quadrupled the total time from attempted connection to final message delivery. Under those circumstances, if slower modes, but more available fordwarding stations, were used, the speed of transfer would not be so important compared to the time to get a connection. Once a long distance connection has to be made, it is more susceptible to QSB than a NVIS connection, for instance, again increasing the transfer time by an unreported amount.

NBEMS is in beta, and we are gathering experience to optimize the system. We have not ruled out any modes at this time, except voice-bandwidth digital modes, because we feel the job can be done without going to such extremes. We intend to push using 2m VHF SSB digital to the limit, which is reliably about 100 miles. Past that, propagation is too variable to be dependable. Linked DStar repeater systems can go over 100 miles, as long as the repeaters are up, and have very fast throughput, but when the repeaters are down, all the speed in the world is not going to get the message through as a slower system that still works.

73, Skip KH6TY


Rick wrote:


Skip,

I know you don't particularly care for Pactor 3 stations, but isn't it
completely legal to operate Pactor modes at any point in the band since
the whole band is RTTY/Data?


It is only when you are operating an automatic station here in the U.S.
that it would not be legal. If the Pactor station is outside the U.S.,
then they follow their countries rules, which may allow automatic
operation throughout the bands.

If we are striving to come up with solutions for emergency
communications, we should keep all options on the table including
automatic operation since we can never be sure of having operators
available 24/7/365 on a given mode and band. I agree that we should be
doing this with spectrum conserving modes, if possible, and that is why
PSKmail could even have potential in the U.S. if it was made available
on MS OS as well as Linux OS.

With the tests that I have done, I would have to say the best ARQ sound
card mode is FAE400 and this is confirmed by other digital operators
that I have compared notes with.

Also, having a BBS station that could act as a hub, without Pactor
(sound card modes of some kind) would be helpful. The RFSM software
system has this already, including I just found out, group chat without
ARQ. Here in the U.S. this can not be used below 6 meters and it can not
work into the noise like many of the sound card modes. But on quiet VHF
bands, this might do very well.

We are very fortunate to suddenly have a number of options that were not
available even a year ago.

73,

Rick, KV9U

k


Re: NBEMS Testing

Ed <autek@...>
 

Well at least we got the pot stirred. Not much value to installing software and then not using it. My objective was to get some feel for how NBEMS works **BEFORE** we need to use it in a real emergency.

I sure picked the wrong part of the band, there were digital signals everywhere, and finding a clear spot was difficult. If I try it again this evening I'm going to need to find a better spot, probably lower in the band.

Travis KE3Y, I never did hear you, Tim N4UM, I printed you calling, but just once. Dave, WB2HVF, you were the strongest and I still don't understand why we couldn't connect once I started the beacon. The only successful connect was KI8AF and his track was barely visible in the waterfall.

As Travis pointed out, we need to make a normal keyboard to keyboard, before we even try flarq. It doesn't matter which op starts the beacon after that. If you need a file to transfer, go to the files area and download Travis's contribution called Ted.com. Make sure you place it in the arqsend folder so you can find it easily. The added bonus is that it is a program you can use once it is downloaded. I would also suggest you make a small file in case its needed. Mine is 482 bytes.

As crowded as the band was last night, QRM was just about unavoidable.

I'm also going to setup an email to send, hopefully we can see how and what is needed for it to work.

Thanks to Skip KH6TY and Dave W1HKJ for their efforts.

Ed W3NR


80 meter NBEMS

Ed <autek@...>
 

Well for all you sleepy heads that missed the run this morning, here is a brief run down.

I ran across Skip KH6TY, I was calling cq nbems with psk63. I started the beacon and once connected we transferred several files in psk125 as well as mfsk16. Some observations.

1. Don't be too quick, give flarq time.

2. Band conditions are going to dictate the mode.

3. Learn how to use the plain talk function.

4. Make sure your files are in arqsend

5. Block size depends on mode and the band.

6. Check your time out setting. I had to bump mine up to 300 seconds.

I'll be on again in the morning. 3578.5 +1500 around 5:00 A.M. EST.

Tonite is still undecided.

73

Ed W3NR
fldigi/flarq Linux


Text is jumble in PSK modes in VBDIGI

"travhardin" <ke3y@...>
 

Printout is OK in PSK31, MFSK and TTY -- in fact I just talked to
OK1TN in Czech Republic via TTY (14.085).

But text is jumbled completely when trying to copy a good signal in
all PSK modes except 31. Also the single center frequency mark can't
settle on what it wants, and it AFC's all over the place. What's the
correct place for the marker?

Do I need to reinstall program, maybe?

Travis KE3Y
Huntsville, Alabama


Re: testing

"tim.n4um" <N4UM@...>
 

Skip:

Heard you call me on CW after we finished on 40 and came back to you
several times but couldn't hear you. I guess we learned that sometimes
the gods of propagation can be pretty fickle. 30 meters was a real
digital jungle this afternoon. There should be a bounty on pactor
stations. Anyway, it was better than watching daytime TV or replacing
the guy wires on my tower with temperatures in the mid-80's.

Tim