Topics

V2 and V3 roadmap


IU1CYF
 

Hi OwO,
do you have any news about the V2-N4 and the other products you write some info the 31 July 2020..?
Thank you very.
73 de Italy.


Peter Loron
 

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Sunday, August 23, 2020 2:29 PM, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 09:53, Gabriel Tenma White @owo
wrote:

Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware
improvements:
Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product
lineup:

- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I
don't know if this will feature a display.
3 GHz full 2-port would be great if it had 4 receivers, which would allow
unknown thru calibration. That’s a massive advantage.

But without a display I would personally not buy.

Dave.
The device sounds fantastic. For me, no screen would be ok as long as there was really good, cross platform, open source software to run on a laptop and act as the display. Responsiveness would be important here, so a fast connection (USB-C?) would be necessary. My interest would be using this mostly on the bench, although given the small size, it would be fairly easily portable if I need to take it somewhere.

-Pete


 

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 09:53, Gabriel Tenma White <@owo>
wrote:

Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware
improvements:


Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product
lineup:

- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I
don't know if this will feature a display.


3 GHz full 2-port would be great if it had 4 receivers, which would allow
unknown thru calibration. That’s a massive advantage.

But without a display I would personally not buy.



Dave.


--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United
Kingdom


Jim Lux
 

On 8/23/20 1:21 AM, necessaryevil86@... wrote:
Ahh I see! Makes sense now! But what if you want to analyze the performance of let's say a complex receiver? Don't you need a high bandwith resolution to see the spurs and intermodulation products and stuff?
That's done with a spectrum analyzer, not a VNA.





necessaryevil86@...
 

Ahh I see! Makes sense now! But what if you want to analyze the performance of let's say a complex receiver? Don't you need a high bandwith resolution to see the spurs and intermodulation products and stuff?


Gufo Rosso
 

in addition to the "clones" open source plans to make the changes.
Hackrfone also has its own clones but no one has complained.
in case if you weave the distribution in eu (only if open source)

- please insert a screen 4" use without a computer, arm chip support tft screen
- and sd card to dump s1p s2p file

hi


Jim Lux
 

On 8/22/20 12:36 PM, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io wrote:
Jim,
Yes, there are sources of more or less random noise.
Filtering them out would improve performance.
But RBW is not a spec you typically see when a VNA is described.
Yup - measurement bandwidth, and buried way down inside some menu on most VNAs.

But useful to know if you're using the VNA as a radar in "zero span" mode.


I assume all these VNA's are using ADC's to digitize audio from a mixer
of the outgoing RF signal and a local RF signal that is perhaps 4khz away,
creating 4khz audio, to be digitized by an ADC. Should be able to reject
anything near that 4khz audio signal in the DSP firmware on the ARM.
It's actually 5 kHz away. (see attached plot of the sin/cos table in dsp.c)
The dsp code grabs 48 samples (at 48 kHz sample rate), so 1 millisecond - that gives you about 1 kHz bandwidth


Would need the two RF signals tightly locked to a common reference oscillator
to get stable 4khz audio at 6ghz.
That's what the Silabs part in the NanoVNA does.


However, there are other ways to implement a VNA.
I believe at least some of these new VNA's described by OwO
use the fundamental from the signal source throughout the range.
The original nanoVNA does use harmonics of the Si5351 to work above 300mhz.
The primary issue is that the fundamental is stronger than the signal of interest,
so the ADC needs more dynamic range to get the same margins.
Undesired harmonics (and the fundamental if over 300mhz) do not result in 4khz audio,
and are thus easily ignored.
So I doubt harmonics due to relatively small non-linearities in an amp would have much effect.
Perhaps - I've not thought about it a lot, but intermods are always weird. You have to think about things like 2x2 and 3x2 kinds of combinations.



Jerry, KE7ER
On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 11:28 AM, Jim Lux wrote:


On 8/22/20 7:27 AM, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io wrote:


This being a VNA (not a spectrum analyzer),
the only frequency present in the network is assumed to be that of the
signal injected by the VNA.
Not for active systems (i.e. if you're measuring an amplifier or active filter
or mixer).


So I doubt "resolution bandwidth" applies.
It sort of does, but not in the SA sense - there's a measurement bandwidth
which essentially sets the SNR of the measurements of mag and phase in the 3
receivers.


Harmonics of the injected signal due to non-linearities in the network
should not be an issue.
One hopes. However, an amplifier might introduce noise, some of which would be
in the VNA's receiver bandwidth. And, since higher frequency ranges in the
NanoVNA depend on using harmonics of the oscillators, one might get caught by
something like that.



Jerry Gaffke
 

Jim,

Yes, there are sources of more or less random noise.
Filtering them out would improve performance.
But RBW is not a spec you typically see when a VNA is described.

I assume all these VNA's are using ADC's to digitize audio from a mixer
of the outgoing RF signal and a local RF signal that is perhaps 4khz away,
creating 4khz audio, to be digitized by an ADC. Should be able to reject
anything near that 4khz audio signal in the DSP firmware on the ARM.
Would need the two RF signals tightly locked to a common reference oscillator
to get stable 4khz audio at 6ghz.
However, there are other ways to implement a VNA.

I believe at least some of these new VNA's described by OwO
use the fundamental from the signal source throughout the range.

The original nanoVNA does use harmonics of the Si5351 to work above 300mhz.
The primary issue is that the fundamental is stronger than the signal of interest,
so the ADC needs more dynamic range to get the same margins.
Undesired harmonics (and the fundamental if over 300mhz) do not result in 4khz audio,
and are thus easily ignored.
So I doubt harmonics due to relatively small non-linearities in an amp would have much effect.

Jerry, KE7ER

On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 11:28 AM, Jim Lux wrote:


On 8/22/20 7:27 AM, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io wrote:


This being a VNA (not a spectrum analyzer),
the only frequency present in the network is assumed to be that of the
signal injected by the VNA.
Not for active systems (i.e. if you're measuring an amplifier or active filter
or mixer).


So I doubt "resolution bandwidth" applies.
It sort of does, but not in the SA sense - there's a measurement bandwidth
which essentially sets the SNR of the measurements of mag and phase in the 3
receivers.


Harmonics of the injected signal due to non-linearities in the network
should not be an issue.
One hopes. However, an amplifier might introduce noise, some of which would be
in the VNA's receiver bandwidth. And, since higher frequency ranges in the
NanoVNA depend on using harmonics of the oscillators, one might get caught by
something like that.



Jim Lux
 

On 8/22/20 7:27 AM, Jerry Gaffke via groups.io wrote:
This being a VNA (not a spectrum analyzer),
the only frequency present in the network is assumed to be that of the signal injected by the VNA.

Not for active systems (i.e. if you're measuring an amplifier or active filter or mixer).


So I doubt "resolution bandwidth" applies.
It sort of does, but not in the SA sense - there's a measurement bandwidth which essentially sets the SNR of the measurements of mag and phase in the 3 receivers.

Harmonics of the injected signal due to non-linearities in the network should not be an issue.
One hopes. However, an amplifier might introduce noise, some of which would be in the VNA's receiver bandwidth. And, since higher frequency ranges in the NanoVNA depend on using harmonics of the oscillators, one might get caught by something like that.



Jerry Gaffke
 

This being a VNA (not a spectrum analyzer),
the only frequency present in the network is assumed to be that of the signal injected by the VNA.
So I doubt "resolution bandwidth" applies.
Harmonics of the injected signal due to non-linearities in the network should not be an issue.

Anyways, having ignored this forum for most of the year, I hadn't see this thread.
OwO's initial post looks very promising:
https://groups.io/g/nanovna-users/message/15871


############################
Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware improvements:
- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will feature 2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be ready in 1 month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500 points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.
Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product lineup:
- A USB-only 4GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V1 NanoVNA.
- A USB-only 6GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V2.
- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I don't know if this will feature a display.
#############################


When I buy a VNA with a display in the future, I'll be looking for a 4",
Though beyond a GHz, any network or antenna will fit comfortably on the edge of my desk,
so fine with me if the VNA is tied to a linux laptop (or perhaps an android phone?).

For a 6GHz instrument, it seems we're moving beyond what most hobbyists need.
Pricing it north of $100 may not affect volumes much.

If the instrument is locked down (not open source), but the protocol over the USB port is revealed,
that allows the open source community to create nanovna-saver type software to extend the capabilities.
Hans over at qrp-labs.com has made a business of mostly open source hardware,
his QSX (I'm confident it will show up someday!) will use this strategy to discourage clones.

I'm hoping these instruments can find a home with a US distributor.
Perhaps somebody in the forum could run a shop out of their garage if nothing else.

Jerry, KE7ER

On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:14 PM, <necessaryevil86@...> wrote:
Any idea what the resolution bandwith will be? Or Am I asking to much now?


necessaryevil86@...
 

Any idea what the resolution bandwith will be? Or Am I asking to much now?


Peter Ide-Kostic <on7yi.pik973@...>
 

Excellent news!!!!! . Personally, I am going to fall for sure for the fast
sweep 6 ghz model and for the high dynamic range 3ghz two port model.!!!
Looking forward to have them in my hands! 😊

Please make sure that on the new USB only models, rf output can be stopped
when not making measurements. This so much more convenient when measuring
high gain rf power amplifiers.

For the two port model, it would be great to be able to adjust rf power
without losing calibration. Ideally, if feasible, it would be great to be
able to make measurements of S21/S11 at much lower power than for S12/S22
measurements. Again this is useful when measuring amplifiers for obvious
reasons.

Also for the two port, some basic de-embedding tools in the software would
be a true killing. For instance to remove effects of connectors,
attenuators, transformers etc...


I wish you a lot of commercial sucess with your new products!!!

Peter/on7yi


On Sat, 1 Aug 2020, 01:10 Dragan Milivojevic, <d.milivojevic@...>
wrote:

Great news, AFAIK there is no reasonably priced product, in the
amateur/semi profesional market as that
two port 3GHz version so that will place it at the top of the pack.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 10:53, Gabriel Tenma White <
@owo>
wrote:

Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware
improvements:

- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will feature
2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be ready
in 1
month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500
points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large
display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.

Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new
product
lineup:
- A USB-only 4GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed
to beat the V1 NanoVNA.
- A USB-only 6GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed
to beat the V2.
- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I
don't know if this will feature a display.





OneOfEleven
 

Getting the noise floor down to say -80dB or better across the range and more points would be very nice. A display is nice but a USB only is fine too, it's the performance that peaks my interest.

The current high noise floor (particularly in the harmonic ranges) limits the use of the V1 quite a bit.


Slawek
 

Hello all,
Thank you Gabriel for sharing this info, the two port VNA is on top of my list with most wanted RF measurement stuff - I will watch you :)

--
Regards,

Slawek/SP9BSL


Dragan Milivojevic
 

Great news, AFAIK there is no reasonably priced product, in the
amateur/semi profesional market as that
two port 3GHz version so that will place it at the top of the pack.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 10:53, Gabriel Tenma White <@owo>
wrote:

Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware
improvements:

- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will feature
2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be ready in 1
month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500
points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large
display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.

Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product
lineup:
- A USB-only 4GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed
to beat the V1 NanoVNA.
- A USB-only 6GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed
to beat the V2.
- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I
don't know if this will feature a display.



Dave_G0WBX
 

I hope you mean 201 and 501 points etc?
=============================================

... (200 points/s) ...
... (500points/s)....

Dave,
I think you confused number of measurement points with sweep speed.

- Herb

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed.

It's too hot here, and my eyes are tired.

Regards.

Dave G8KBV



--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:


hwalker
 

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 04:59 AM, Dave_G0WBX wrote:

I hope you mean 201 and 501 points etc?
=============================================

... (200 points/s) ...
... (500points/s)....

Dave,
I think you confused number of measurement points with sweep speed.

- Herb


Dave_G0WBX
 

Re:-

- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will
feature 2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be
ready in 1 month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500
points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large
display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope you mean 201 and 501 points etc?

The point "dead centre" is important, plus that's what the big boys do
(HPAK, Anritsu, R&S, Tek etc) for a good reason.   A lot of
test/measurement work is performed using centre frequency and span (per
division.)

It's always good to know that the centre frequency you asked for*, has a
definite measurement point, not interpolated between points. (* +/- RF
source accuracy of course.)

73.

Dave G8KBV

--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:


Reinier Gerritsen
 

Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware improvements:

- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will feature 2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be ready in 1 month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500 points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.

Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product lineup:
- A USB-only 4GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V1 NanoVNA.
- A USB-only 6GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V2.
- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I don't know if this will feature a display.
Great news Gabriel.
I hope the last item is a typo and it should read a full two port 6 GHz.... ;)
I don't mind the display!


Glen K4KV
 

Gabriel,

Thanks for the information!

I hope you are passing on the consensus from this group, that there is no sense producing a

product without a case, and without a 4 inch screen (for those models that are supposed to have a screen).

IMHO

73

Glen K4KV

On 7/31/2020 04:53, Gabriel Tenma White wrote:
Here are the designs under way and future plans for VNA hardware improvements:

- V2-N - this is still 2.8 inch and will replace the V2, and will feature 2x faster sweep (200 points/s) and lower trace noise. It will be ready in 1 month.
- V2-N4 - this one is 4 inch, and will have up to 5x faster sweep (500 points/s). It will be a redesign and won't be simply V2 with a large display substituted in. Estimated availability in 2 months.

Some of our engineers are now working for another company on a new product lineup:
- A USB-only 4GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V1 NanoVNA.
- A USB-only 6GHz VNA with fast sweep. ETA 3 months. Pricing is supposed to beat the V2.
- A full two port 3GHz VNA with 100dB dynamic range across the band. I don't know if this will feature a display.