Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countries
As the right-wing Canadian think tank notes, "support for the traditional definition of socialism as the state owning the means of production, or as phrased in the survey as 'the government taking control of companies and industries so that the state rather than individuals control the economy', had the least support” while "socialism as the government providing more services to people, received the highest level of total agreement”, somewhat ahead of a related "third definition of socialism as a guaranteed minimum income.”
For those seeking more detail, the full survey results are at https://fraserinstitute.org/studies/perspectives-on-capitalism-and-socialism
From: Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...>
Subject: Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countries
Date: February 27, 2023 at 9:44:48 AM PST
To: Marxmail <marxmail@groups.io>
Don’t get too excited. Like many other surveys of this kind, the right-wing Fraser Institute simply confirms that majority support for “socialism" in Canada, the US, the UK, and Australia isn’t counterposed to capitalism. Instead it is understand to mean a strengthening of the social safety net, often but not always expressed in support for left-centre parties. Right-wing populism combines the same popular appetite for redistribution with exploitation of the reactionary fear of that segment of the population, usually outside the major metropolitan centres, which feels most threatened by economic and cultural change.
As the right-wing Canadian think tank notes, "support for the traditional definition of socialism as the state owning the means of production, or as phrased in the survey as 'the government taking control of companies and industries so that the state rather than individuals control the economy', had the least support” while "socialism as the government providing more services to people, received the highest level of total agreement”, somewhat ahead of a related "third definition of socialism as a guaranteed minimum income.”
For those seeking more detail, the full survey results are at https://fraserinstitute.org/studies/perspectives-on-capitalism-and-socialism
Begin forwarded message:From: Sam Gindin <sam.gindin@...>Subject: Re: Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countriesDate: February 27, 2023 at 11:59:13 AM PSTTo: Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...>Cc: Marxmail <marxmail@groups.io>, Socialist Project <sp-canada-discussion@...>Yes, that surprised me. It is interesting but must be taken with a grain of salt. This isn't to deny the contradiction we are living through: widespread and profound frustration with life as it is (I find few workers who are happy) vs our inability to build on this and make socialism a serious alternative. I'd expect even the commitment to public ownership to be fragile (how widespread, how democratic, what context - do we want to nationalize google under the current state?). There is potential but what can we really expect to happen without structures that inform and educate or the credibility to get us somewhere else?.On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 1:26 PM Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...> wrote:In the glass half full category, it should be noted that the survey found as much as 40% of those expressing support for socialism understanding it to mean public ownership of the economy. That’s hardly insignificant and, if the survey is to be believed, represents a strong potential base for the left. Support for socialism, reformist or revolutionary, was strongest among those aged 18–34 which is consistent with other surveys.
> From: Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...>
> Subject: Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countries
> Date: February 27, 2023 at 9:44:48 AM PST
> To: Marxmail <marxmail@groups.io>
>
> Don’t get too excited. Like many other surveys of this kind, the right-wing Fraser Institute simply confirms that majority support for “socialism" in Canada, the US, the UK, and Australia isn’t counterposed to capitalism. Instead it is understand to mean a strengthening of the social safety net, often but not always expressed in support for left-centre parties. Right-wing populism combines the same popular appetite for redistribution with exploitation of the reactionary fear of that segment of the population, usually outside the major metropolitan centres, which feels most threatened by economic and cultural change.
>
> As the right-wing Canadian think tank notes, "support for the traditional definition of socialism as the state owning the means of production, or as phrased in the survey as 'the government taking control of companies and industries so that the state rather than individuals control the economy', had the least support” while "socialism as the government providing more services to people, received the highest level of total agreement”, somewhat ahead of a related "third definition of socialism as a guaranteed minimum income.”
>
> For those seeking more detail, the full survey results are at https://fraserinstitute.org/studies/perspectives-on-capitalism-and-socialism
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--sam gindin
Gandall:
"Fully agree, Sam. The disappearance of the workers’ movement of yesteryear has deprived us of the essential "structures that inform and educate” which can credibly attract those with a dawning anticapitalist (and antiwar) consciousness."
Begin forwarded message:
From: Sam Gindin <sam.gindin@...>Subject: Re: Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countriesDate: February 27, 2023 at 11:59:13 AM PSTTo: Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...>Cc: Marxmail <marxmail@groups.io>, Socialist Project <sp-canada-discussion@...>
Yes, that surprised me. It is interesting but must be taken with a grain of salt. This isn't to deny the contradiction we are living through: widespread and profound frustration with life as it is (I find few workers who are happy) vs our inability to build on this and make socialism a serious alternative. I'd expect even the commitment to public ownership to be fragile (how widespread, how democratic, what context - do we want to nationalize google under the current state?). There is potential but what can we really expect to happen without structures that inform and educate or the credibility to get us somewhere else?.
On Mon, Feb 27, 2023 at 1:26 PM Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...> wrote:In the glass half full category, it should be noted that the survey found as much as 40% of those expressing support for socialism understanding it to mean public ownership of the economy. That’s hardly insignificant and, if the survey is to be believed, represents a strong potential base for the left. Support for socialism, reformist or revolutionary, was strongest among those aged 18–34 which is consistent with other surveys.
> From: Marv Gandall <marvgand2@...>
> Subject: Survey finds majority support for socialism in English-speaking advanced capitalist countries
> Date: February 27, 2023 at 9:44:48 AM PST
> To: Marxmail <marxmail@groups.io>
>
> Don’t get too excited. Like many other surveys of this kind, the right-wing Fraser Institute simply confirms that majority support for “socialism" in Canada, the US, the UK, and Australia isn’t counterposed to capitalism. Instead it is understand to mean a strengthening of the social safety net, often but not always expressed in support for left-centre parties. Right-wing populism combines the same popular appetite for redistribution with exploitation of the reactionary fear of that segment of the population, usually outside the major metropolitan centres, which feels most threatened by economic and cultural change.
>
> As the right-wing Canadian think tank notes, "support for the traditional definition of socialism as the state owning the means of production, or as phrased in the survey as 'the government taking control of companies and industries so that the state rather than individuals control the economy', had the least support” while "socialism as the government providing more services to people, received the highest level of total agreement”, somewhat ahead of a related "third definition of socialism as a guaranteed minimum income.”
>
> For those seeking more detail, the full survey results are at https://fraserinstitute.org/studies/perspectives-on-capitalism-and-socialism
I am unsure about where Gandall stands on the issue. of the significance of the survey. Perhaps he can clarify and elaborate.
Firstly, does the survey in any way really indicate support for socialism? What is meant by socialism by those who responded? A humanized capitalism (which is what social democrats here in Toronto generally mean)? Or do they mean the abolition of the class power of employers? Gandall puts the term “socialism” in quotation marks. This seems to imply that he questions the definition of socialism provided in the survey. Perhaps he can elaborate what he means by socialism.
If we are to take the survey with a grain of salt—he seems to agree with Sam Gindin on this (and I agree with Gindin at least on this as well) then the need for new structures and educational work would be all that more important, would it not?
Secondly, the survey refers to three different definitions of socialism—mainly government owned and controlled, government providing more services or government providing a minimum basic income. What is Gandall's view of the nature of socialism?
Thirdly, the survey does not provide any characterization of capitalism. How does that affect the results of the survey? Why is it assumed that socialism needs defining but capitalism does not?
Fourthly, what does Gandall mean by “structures that inform and educate” (Gindin's words, apparenlty, but Gandall agrees with such a characterization, it seems)? Does Gandall mean such structures as TAWC (Toronto Airport Workers' Council), which seems to be mainly a union of business unions, with little critique of the class structures of power?
Or does he mean something like Jane McAlevey's organizing model? If so, what of McAlevey's wholly inadequate identification of agency and structure at the micro level of the individual employer? What of class structures? To which structures is he referring?
Fifthly, what would such structures do in the way of education? What would be the content of such education? Who would perform such education? Who would be the educators, and who would be the students?
Sixthly, what does Gandall think of John Clarke's references to this survey (Clarke is the former head of OCAP—Ontario Coalition Against Poverty): (From Facebook, February 27, 2023):
“In several countries at the moment, strike waves are underway and mass protests of historic proportions are unfolding. Yesterday, I saw yet another poll indicating huge support for socialism in Canada. A majority of younger people actually registered their approval but a big chunk of older people were there as well. Of course, there would be considerable variation and confusion on the notion of socialism but this still suggests that millions of people are actively considering how society should be fundamentally different.
This indicates that a critical mass of dissatisfaction and anger already exists. The dominant ideas of the ruling class are strong but not an entirely effective restraint. What then, is the main impediment, in the realms of social consciousness, to the creation of sweeping and transformative movements?
I'd suggest that what is lacking isn't a deep sense of grievance and a fervent wish for change. Rather, the missing ingredient is a sense of possibility. If you see the prices of basic necessities reaching impossible levels, listen with dread to the increasing volume of the war drums, read of climate disaster, species extinction and ecosystem collapse, you may be terrified or enraged but that's not enough. It's necessary to believe that you and others like you can challenge these things.
The sense of possibility that I speak of will have to be forged in struggle. Only mass collective action that brings home an understanding of the strength of the working class can offer the necessary lessons. This has to mean action on a vast scale that is waged on a basis that creates victories or, at least, a strong sense that victory is possible.
This is why all efforts to confine social resistance within forms and methods that are limited and contained and that seek a compromise that is no longer on offer are so destructive at the present time. We have to break out these constraints as a matter of necessity.”
Decisive forms of struggle, however, must also be linked to a political approach that is equally unambiguous. 52% of 18-34 year olds in the poll I mentioned said they wanted to see socialism. Even if most of them are a bit fuzzy on what they mean by this, it's a pretty healthy staring point. Socialist politics are so vital because a mass movement that hopes for a better deal under this system is severely limited but one that is orientated towards eliminating and replacing the system will be unstoppable.”
Fred