Report on the Protest Against the “Real Path to Peace in Ukraine” Travesty at the People’s Forum


Michael Pugliese
 


Walter Lippmann <walterlx@...>
 

How many protesters were there?


Walter Lippmann
Los Angeles, California


Mark Baugher
 

On Nov 27, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...> wrote:

http://lrp-cofi.org/statements/ukraine_protest_report_112722.html
The claim that "most of the Western left says that the West’s support to Ukraine proves that its resistance is illegitimate" doesn't seem to hold for those who post to marxmail, which seems to have a majority in favor of Ukraine's right to defend itself by any means necessary.

Mark


Michael Pugliese
 

Walter must be behind in his reading the threads on Partido. Posted on
https://www.facebook.com/groups/177818222278975/posts/5770144876379587
.
The answer to that question was posted two days ago , on that thread
^. But, for others , here 'tis, what I posted there on that thread 2
days ago.
"Dozens of people are stationed outside People's Forum in yellow
vests, for today's event on #Ukraine without any Ukrainian speakers.
While about 7 Ukraine supporters are protesting nearby, by quietly
holding signs."
https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1594011337448996865?s=20&t=Mzo4akYga9Kwk4Ez6bO8Ew

Michael Pugliese


Michael Pugliese
 


Dayne Goodwin
 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 12:44 PM Mark Baugher <mark@...> wrote:
The claim that "most of the Western left says that the West’s support to Ukraine proves that its resistance is illegitimate" doesn't seem to hold for those who post to marxmail, which seems to have a majority in favor of Ukraine's right to defend itself by any means necessary.


Of course! thanks to Louis Proyect who created and maintained the marxmail discussion list for 20+ years.   In 2014 Louis was explaining the military conflict in Ukraine was a result of Russian imperialism.  The dominant politics of the active u.s. left who call themselves "Marxist" is campist ultraleftism.  As Russian imperialism is in conflict with U.S. imperialism, they are on the side of 'progressive' Russian imperialism.
Dayne
 

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 12:44 PM Mark Baugher <mark@...> wrote:

> On Nov 27, 2022, at 11:09 AM, Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...> wrote:
> http://lrp-cofi.org/statements/ukraine_protest_report_112722.html

The claim that "most of the Western left says that the West’s support to Ukraine proves that its resistance is illegitimate" doesn't seem to hold for those who post to marxmail, which seems to have a majority in favor of Ukraine's right to defend itself by any means necessary.
Mark



Walter Daum
 

Most posting on this list oppose Russian (as well as U.S., etc)  imperialism. But not on the left generally. Weeks before the People’s Forum event we tried to sound out whether any of the more prominent groups on the left were planning any protest, but we found nothing. We had also contacted some Ukrainian socialists, and they urged us to go ahead even with small numbers since that would help them counter the rightist claims that socialism = Stalinism = imperialism. 



John Reimann
 

Thanks to Michael Pugliese for his report on this pro-Putin conference. I am proud of the central role played by the Ukraine Socialist Solidarity Campaign in organizing the protest against this conference. Together with our friends in the European Network in Solidarity with Ukraine, we also distributed this leaflet
There will be more such events, including Jill Stein's ongoing book tour and UNAC's pro-Putin week of peace

John Reimann


--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Michael Meeropol
 

sorry for an ignorant question -- was DSA opposed to the demonstration or is it just not considered "left"?


On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:20 AM Walter Daum via groups.io <foxcave=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Most posting on this list oppose Russian (as well as U.S., etc)  imperialism. But not on the left generally. Weeks before the People’s Forum event we tried to sound out whether any of the more prominent groups on the left were planning any protest, but we found nothing. 


Walter Daum
 

DSA is the largest organization by far on the US left. So it is particularly unfortunate that its International Committee from the start took essentially the same position as the sponsors of the People’s Forum’s “Real Path to Peace”: that the US and NATO are to blame for the war and should stop escalating it by sending arms to Ukraine. That is, their path to peace is to let Russia win. 


workerpoet
 

Yes, whether you like it nor not, US and NATO are to blame for the war and should stop escalating it by sending arms to Ukraine. It's not just some leftists pointing it out -- https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/ The reality is that, though Putin's response to our aggression is a crime as well, Ukraine isn't worth the sacrifice of potential nuclear holocaust. There can be no positive outcome here and the sooner a secure peace is negotiated the better. The U.S. is deeply invested in fomenting and arming endless war. It also has a consistent record of putting  fascists in power and arming and backing worse autocracies than Russia -- like Saudi Arabia. Putin is a vicious oligarch but Russia is far less aggressive or expansive than the U.S..As long as we are competing to see who "wins" this bloodbath, we may all be doomed. As we can recall, Communists opposed WWI for the same reasons, This ruling class conflict is over hegemony of the natural gas market. It isn't about "democracy" or "national sovereignty" but about the competition of capitalist gangster countries. Communists should understand this, be aware of the history and context, and demand a negotiated peace instead of the slaughter of more working class people.


Marv Gandall
 

Jacques Baud's April 2022 piece on ScheerPost linked to above by workerpoet was and remains one of the most important and well documented articles on the origins of the war. It also appeared on the website of the International Marxist Tendency (IMT): https://www.marxist.com/nato-lies-exposed-former-agent-speaks-out.htm


Joseph Green
 

Below I append the Google translation of the section of a Wikipedia article that discusses Jacuqes Baud's promotion of conspiracy theories.  And this is the man that is being promoted by the opponents of the Ukrainian right to self-determination, such as the Trotskyist IMT ("In Defence of Marxism") , as telling the great truth about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? A retired imperialist officer who denies the crimes of the Syrian dictatorship? And  yet workerpoet promotes Baud's article, and  Marv Gandall would have us believe that Baud's article is "one of the most important and well documented articles on the origin" of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Both workerpoet and Gandall cite, not particular points made by Baud, but how important a source Baud's article is.
In fact, what Baud says has been discredited by many articles on, for example, this very list.  Baud simply repeats Russian imperialist talking points. The way his article is promoted is similar to how many such articles are promoted on FB and elsewhere.  Baud or other similar characters are supposed to impress us by their imperialist credentialis. In essence, what is being said is how  convincing it is that BAUD, yes, an imperialist officer BAUD, a WESTERN IMPERIALIST officer--how could one deny  such a great source--repeats anti-Ukrainain talking points. No, these points supposedly can't be Russian imperialist talking points, because the Western imperialist officer BAUD backs them up with his authority.
------------------------------------------------
According to journalist Antoine Hasday, published by Conspiracy Watch , an interview with Jacques Baud given to RT France "checks all the boxes for geopolitical conspiracy theories" [ 18 ] . The latter, sometimes invited by the traditional media, also intervened on the far-right web-television TV Libertés , as well as previously on RT France [ 18 ] . Interviewed on this last channel by Frédéric Taddeï in September 2020, he notably minimizes the human toll of the Darfur war , which he reduces to 2,500 dead (against 300,000 according to the UN) and denies the responsibility of the Syrian army in the massacres in Homs in 2011 and in the chemical attacks in Ghouta , Khan Sheikhoun and Douma between 2013 and 2018 [ 18 ] . Taking up the official arguments of the Syrian regime of Bashar el-Assad , he also asserts that the photographs taken by the military photographer "  Caesar  " are not those of political opponents who died under torture, but of soldiers of the Syrian army [ 18 ] . Jacques Baud also whitewashes Russia considering that the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal was caused by "food poisoning" and that the poisoning of Alexei Navalny is probably "the fact of the mafia" [ 18 ] .
On 5 Dec 2022 at 8:04, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> Jacques Baud's April 2022 piece on ScheerPost linked to above by
> workerpoet was and
> remains one of the most important and well documented articles on
> the origins of the war. It
> also appeared on the website of the International Marxist Tendency
> (IMT):
> https://www.marxist.com/nato-lies-exposed-former-agent-speaks-out.ht
> m
> _._,_._,_
>


Michael Meeropol
 

Thank you, Joseph ...


On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 1:16 PM Joseph Green <jgreen@...> wrote:
Below I append the Google translation of the section of a Wikipedia article that discusses Jacuqes Baud's promotion of conspiracy theories.  And this is the man that is being promoted by the opponents of the Ukrainian right to self-determination, such as the Trotskyist IMT ("In Defence of Marxism") , as telling the great truth about the Russian invasion of Ukraine? A retired imperialist officer who denies the crimes of the Syrian dictatorship? And  yet workerpoet promotes Baud's article, and  Marv Gandall would have us believe that Baud's article is "one of the most important and well documented articles on the origin" of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Both workerpoet and Gandall cite, not particular points made by Baud, but how important a source Baud's article is.
In fact, what Baud says has been discredited by many articles on, for example, this very list.  Baud simply repeats Russian imperialist talking points. The way his article is promoted is similar to how many such articles are promoted on FB and elsewhere.  Baud or other similar characters are supposed to impress us by their imperialist credentialis. In essence, what is being said is how  convincing it is that BAUD, yes, an imperialist officer BAUD, a WESTERN IMPERIALIST officer--how could one deny  such a great source--repeats anti-Ukrainain talking points. No, these points supposedly can't be Russian imperialist talking points, because the Western imperialist officer BAUD backs them up with his authority.
--


Marv Gandall
 

A more recent interview with Baud from Monthly Review, another tankie website peddling feverish conspiracy theories about "US imperialism" and NATO:
https://mronline.org/2022/09/03/our-latest-interview-with-jacques-baud/


Joseph Green
 

It's not surprising that MR likes Baud, since MR tells similar lies, like denying the
Russian atrocities at Bucha.
(http://www.communistvoice.org/DSWV-220426.html) Apologists of a feather
flock together...

MR has a history of cozying up to certain dictatorships, denies the atrocities
against the Uighurs (http://www.communistvoice.org/DSWV-201021.html), is
silent about the protests in Iran, thinks the struggle against the Syrian dictatorship
was a US war against Syria, etc.

On 5 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Marv Gandall wrote:


A more recent interview with Baud from Monthly Review, another
tankie website
peddling feverish conspiracy theories about "US imperialism" and
NATO:
https://mronline.org/2022/09/03/our-latest-interview-with-jacques-ba
ud/
_._,_._,_


Vladimiro Giacche'
 

On the contrary, Wikipedia is the new proletarian bible , I imagine…
VG

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 5 dic 2022, alle ore 20:49, Joseph Green <jgreen@...> ha scritto:

It's not surprising that MR likes Baud, since MR tells similar lies, like denying the
Russian atrocities at Bucha.
(http://www.communistvoice.org/DSWV-220426.html) Apologists of a feather
flock together...