Date
1 - 14 of 14
Civil War
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fkalosar101@...
The probability of civil war in the US revolves around the tens of millions of rightwing fanatics who are meant to be thirsting for blood and ready to shoot. FYI--this piece from, er, Rawstory quoting various Deep State authorities on how that can happen and may be about to happen.
Is this right? If not, what? Please, refute this ... Among other questions: how many prison camps and firing squads would the revolution need to fight this menace, and where the H. would all that come from? https://www.rawstory.com/2020/10/experts-fear-us-is-on-the-brink-of-civil-war-millions-of-people-are-actively-prepared-to-their-countrymen/
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Michael Meeropol
Michael Moore has been quoted as saying he "Knows" many of these militia types and that most of them are cowards --- A handful have engaged in murderous acts and there is very little "group" support for those actions --- So I would hope (if Moore is right) that the brandishing of weapons is all posturing --- (we can hope, right?)
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fkalosar101@...
n Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 03:31 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
Fearmongering out of a CIA handbook and David Kicullen--whoever he is--aka "experts"--is pretty thin porridge. Still, the threat of all those millions of assault rifles is real.
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Dennis Brasky
"tens of millions"??? Where in the world did you get that crap from?
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 2:55 PM <fkalosar101@...> wrote: The probability of civil war in the US revolves around the tens of millions of rightwing fanatics who are meant to be thirsting for blood and ready to shoot. FYI--this piece from, er, Rawstory quoting various Deep State authorities on how that can happen and may be about to happen.
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fkalosar101@...
Read the fucking article, goddammit--it's clearly linked. Or is that too much for you?
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Dennis Brasky
Your article is based upon nothing factual, just hysteria to frighten people into voting for the lesser evil. I have followed the far right for years and have NEVER come across any estimate in that ballpark. Maybe that's too much for you.
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:27 PM <fkalosar101@...> wrote: Read the fucking article, goddammit--it's clearly linked. Or is that too much for you?
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fkalosar101@...
It isn't MY article. What the hell is wrong with you? I described it as fearmongering. Of course you haven't read the fucking thing. But it appears in a widely-read, nominally "left" online publication and the numbers it contains, contrary to your purely ego-based assertions, are far from implausible.
There are, per the Brookings Institute, some 400 million firearms in private hands in the United States. Nobody knows how many are assault rifles, but there are certainly millions of those--estimates range from three million or so to fifteen million, and on top of that, there are many millions more tactically serviceable long guns, including hunting rifles and shotguns. The latter, I happen to know, include tactical shotguns with large magazines and semi-automatic shotguns configured exactly like assault rifles. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/07/13/three-million-more-guns-the-spring-2020-spike-in-firearm-sales/#:~:text=Gun%20Sales%20and%20Unintended%20Consequences,firearm%20for%20every%2020%20Americans. How many of those 400 million lethal weapons are in the hands of Marxists or liberals? At least any white male Trump voter who owns a long gun has to be considered a terrorist until proved otherwise. And there are tens of millions of them--maybe enough to hand that thing a victory over the dangerously overconfident Biden. So something better than your preposterous assertion that things are so because you say so is required here. And that, I'm sure, is entirely too much for you and outwith your capacities. Where do you get that fucking crap?
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Mark Lause
There will be no civil war. Most members of the "militias" are actually at the political level of a gun club. Like any club, they learn to parrot whatever's circulating in the club. The serious armed right-wingers are few and far between. We have seen instances of violence from that quarter, but--like that from the kid in Kenosha--it's not done by groups but individuals carried away by the logic of their rhetoric. Trump supporters generally are couch potatoes. Never underestimate the ability of the Democratic leadership to crash and burn but this one looks very much like a Democratic capture of the Congress and a Biden victory The first impact of Biden's victory is going to be a widespread disgust and disappointment among his voters, particularly those who think that it will lead to some kind of national investigation into the criminal activities of the president, his family, his tribe. Or who think that losing is going to shut Trump up. The "liberal media" made him and boosted his career because his gab got ratings. If the voters get rid of him, it's just as likely that he's going to get his own TV show. If not, every time he wants to talk about ritual Satanic child abuse by the Clintons, they'll cluster around him with the microphones. Today, I checked on the news twice. The first time I hit MSNBC, t they were interviewing militia members. When I checked it a second time a few hours later, they were listening to Trump voters. Media loves that crap. And it reinforces the sense of smug superiority among their viewers. I suspect that people voting to get rid of Trump because they're sick of hearing from him will be disappointed. There will be opportunities of all sorts, of course, and we can only hope that enough radicals have the sense to cooperate in taking advantage of them. Biden is also running an overtly illiberal campaign. Bernie notwithstanding, I expect nothing good to come from his administration, and I'm sure that most of the people who are voting for him are rationalizing that his ascendancy is going to initiate some sort of serious change. Most likely, he'll flesh out his cabinet with anti-Trump Republicans and continue his public assurances to corporate America that he is no socialist, will not establish a national health care system, and opposes the idea of a Green New Deal as thoroughly as ever. Now, if Bernie and his supporters are serious about fighting for change 9beyond lobbying, etc.) after Biden's in, we might be up for some serious possibilities. Solidarity, Mark L.
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Gary MacLennan
Trotsky once said the best part of the fascist movement is human dust. The organized working class defeats them every time. Where are Hitler, Mussolini & Franco? comradely Gary
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 4:55 AM <fkalosar101@...> wrote: The probability of civil war in the US revolves around the tens of millions of rightwing fanatics who are meant to be thirsting for blood and ready to shoot. FYI--this piece from, er, Rawstory quoting various Deep State authorities on how that can happen and may be about to happen.
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fkalosar101@...
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 11:07 PM, Mark Lause wrote:
Well, of course we all hope this is right as far as the pussycat passivity and ineluctable shmoo-like biddability of the trumpista is concerned. But it's difficult to think that under conditions of political disintegration--which is certainly possible here and at least a degree of which the Trump phenomenon clearly signals--none of those millions of assault rifles and other long guns--not to mention the close to 700,000 actual machine guns and hundreds of millions of other lethal firearms that are circulating here--will be used for insurrectionary purposes. This need not necessarily come from the militias we know about currently. There are clandestine networks of which we know very little at present, and other dangerous alliances can form in a very short time. Every white male Trump voter, without exception, is a racist fanatic and a reactionary in every other way. There are tens of millions of these creatures. When Nixon hit the skids, his support shrank into the low twenties. Here is Trump in the forties even now--some believe that he will win re-election fair and square, which by "normal" standards should be impossible. What is driving this extraordinary persistence? What becomes of these irrational and fanatical Trump lovers when the economy really goes to hell and the pandemic rages on unchecked? Does the life of an enraged couch potato just go on as usual under all conditions? The business about what will happen under Biden seems close enough to me, but I think the possibility of insurrection under conditions of social collapse, near-collapse, or fractional collapse deserves more serious consideration. We needn't be looking at the conflict of 1861-65. Of course that won't happen now. But can we really assume that "normality" will keep the couch potatoes on their couches forever, come what may? Other societies approaching collapse have spawned violent, multi-sided insurrectionary conflicts. What makes the USA an exception--American exceptionalism?
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John Obrien
Gary,
There is no "organized working class" and several of the existing construction unions have large numbers of their members
as right-wing religious fanatics supporting Trump.
And where is Mussolini you ask - he and his son Don Jr., are currently in the White House
and the religious evangelical fanatics leaders, can materialize in a period of greater instability.
And the hopes of those not wanting to see violence from lone individuals such as Tim McVeigh carry out attacks -
does not mean that one should state that such will not occur.
I do not rely on the zionist Southern Poverty Law Center and their ADL affiliation, which spied on the left
and provides such information to the U. S. and Israel governments intelligence operations - and assume
they continue to do so. But even that group has shown a dramatic growth of fascist groups since Trump took office.
My hope is that Biden beating Trump, will cause demoralization among many of these religious based fascist groups
and give the poorly organized U.S. left some breathing time. As well as the expected growing unemployment and
lowering of most workers living conditions, might lead some of these religious fanatic workers, to reject the leadership
of the right wing religious ministers and be open to the views of the left, when events and conditions move against
working people.
But many of the hetero male left, long unconcerned about the dangers and activities of the religious right wing,
might want to pay more attention. The religious right wing groupings, are very likely to be the center force for
the growing fascist threat in the U. S. - as they have been in other nations.
Reality sometimes gets in the way of what one wants. We need to build a large working class based left
and those U. S. voters in the "Swing States" - should vote for Biden to defeat Trump. Because there is a large
fascist base in those religious right wing circles, most subscribers to this list, have not dealt with - but myself as a
Gay activist, I have been long engaged in opposing those forces and part of a movement defeating their influence.
Because one might not want to take on these right wing religious forces, does not mean they are not a danger.
Trotsky once said the best part of the fascist movement is human dust. The organized working class defeats them every time. Where are Hitler, Mussolini & Franco?
comradely
Gary
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 4:55 AM <fkalosar101@...> wrote:
The probability of civil war in the US revolves around the tens of millions of rightwing fanatics who are meant to be thirsting for blood and ready to shoot. FYI--this piece from, er, Rawstory quoting various Deep State authorities on how that can happen and may be about to happen.
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Michael Meeropol
When FDR was elected, his first action was the BANK holiday and getting the banking system up and running --- his SECOND action(s) were the AAA and the NRA --- both very reactionary and in fact self-defeating policies (raise the incomes of farmers and businesses by artificially raising their prices). On the other hand, in the "FIrst" New Deal he did support TVA and Federal Relief and then followed Frances Perkins in supporting what ultimately became Social Security -- The WPA and the Wagner Act were LATER --- the investigation of monopolies by the TNEC was LATER --- He had to be PUSHED to do the more progressive things (minimum wage, Social Security, not sure when the CCC started) .... BUT --- the things he did do to "right the ship" initially ended up creating the possibility of even more government intervention into the economy -- once the initial resistance to federal involvement in "relief" etc. was breached with the federal relief programs of 1933, other things opened up. SOOOO --- analogy to Biden --- He HAS to mobilize the full force of the federal government to both provide RELIEF (if he gets the Senate we get the entire HEROES ACT plus ....even if he doesn't get the Senate he will be able to pressure the Senate to go along with big spending ....) and BEAT DOWN the virus --- Learning from the fact that Obama had only TWO YEARS when he had the Senate and House, Biden (and the Dems) will not play business as usual --- they will push through laws to reduce the dangers of the Republicans undoing everything he does after two years -- The John Lewis Civil Rights Act (overturning Shelby v. Holder), the Dream Act, another act to establish a path to citizenship, some transparency about contributions, DC (and Puerto Rican??) statehood, --- maybe even anti-gerrymandering laws --- and Judicial Reform. Pushing a new Biden Administration and the Senate in particular to support these pro-democracy acts will be a job for the coalition of liberals and radicals --- this might/could/should be a major focus for all radicals --- it would in terms that became popular in the 1960s be a set of STRUCTURAL REFORMS to capitalism American style -- Of course some people still believe that even if these were possible it wouldn't be enough of a difference to justify voting for Biden (in effect adding one more vote to Trump's path to victory) --- I promise not to respond to this argument ....
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fkalosar101@...
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 03:12 PM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
Interesting take, but am much more pessimistic--and if I had needed to, would have voted for Biden for much smaller reasons. Since effective vaccination seems to be on the horizon, though with doubts about the period of immunity, I think there is a better than fair chance that the pandemic will be controlled during Biden's first two years. The depression will probably get much worse. I think the Postal Service will be somewhat revived and other agencies ravaged by Trump's war on governance will also be somewhat restored--we will see improvement in EPA, Labor Dep't. Dept of Energy, etc etc--until the Republican mid-term landslide, which will probably bury the Democrats because of the economy. As to Biden somehow being pushed to transcend his Blue Dog neoliberal heritage, I can't see it. Old dog, new tricks. He'll be too obsessed with binding up the wounds and reaching out to the gallant foe to try anything drastic. He might get his AG to put up some sort of Red Scare, since he makes a point of bashing Sanders and Socialism the word. Beyond this, I worry about the "cult" heritage of Obama--IMO anticipating Trumpism--whereby O didn't have to do much of anything to be worshipped by irrational hordes of blind followers. Every time they have a good shit to this day these idiots thank Obama, Except for the inadequate ACA and the murder of bin Laden (and the drone murders) Obama actually did very little by FDR standards. He was the president who would magically be whatever you wanted him to be regardless of anything he actually did or said. Very Trumplike in a certain way--indicative of the rising tide of decadence. Is Biden going to be any better--i.e., any more of a really vigorous historical actor?
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John A Imani
Am certain that outbreaks of violence initiated by right wingers will follow soon no matter what the election results. Already happened. What is to stop it from getting worse? Trump has been successful, in spite of himself, simply cause he has enunciated what these people already had in their minds: "Make America White Again." JAI
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