Re: Scholz's visit to China

Marv Gandall

Charlie says "German business's turn against China predates the war in Ukraine. Look at a few article headlines from 2020 that I found at random".

The strong turnout of US, German, and other European and Asian firms at China's annual International Import Exhibition earlier this month would seem to indicate otherwise. 
Clearly there are big differences between the US and allied military and political establishments and the major multinationals who profit from their ties to China.

Top U.S. General Urges Diplomacy in Ukraine While Biden Advisers Resist - The New York Times

Marv Gandall

More on the tactical differences within NATO over when to negotiate an end to the war in Ukraine. The differences at the top may not be as wide as they seem, and may mostly turn on the need to prepare Ukrainian and Western public opinion for concessions.

Top U.S. General Urges Diplomacy in Ukraine While Biden Advisers Resist

Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has made the case that the Ukrainians should try to cement their gains at the bargaining table.

By Peter Baker

New York Times

Nov. 10, 2022

WASHINGTON — A disagreement has emerged at the highest levels of the United States government over whether to press Ukraine to seek a diplomatic end to its war with Russia, with America’s top general urging negotiations while other advisers to President Biden argue that it is too soon.

Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has made the case in internal meetings that the Ukrainians have achieved about as much as they could reasonably expect on the battlefield before winter sets in and so they should try to cement their gains at the bargaining table, according to officials informed about the discussions.

But other senior officials have resisted the idea, maintaining that neither side is ready to negotiate and that any pause in the fighting would only give President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia a chance to regroup.

While Mr. Biden’s advisers believe the war will likely be settled through negotiations eventually, officials said, they have concluded that the moment is not ripe and the United States should not be seen as pressuring the Ukrainians to hold back while they have momentum.

The debate, which the officials described on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss sensitive deliberations, has spilled out into public in recent days as General Milley made public comments hinting at his private advice. “Seize the moment,” he said in a speech in New York on Wednesday.

He elaborated in an interview on CNBC on Thursday. “We’ve seen the Ukrainian military fight the Russian military to a standstill,” he said. “Now, what the future holds is not known with any degree of certainty, but we think there are some possibilities here for some diplomatic solutions.”

The White House, however, made a point of distancing itself from any perception that it is pushing President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine to cede territory to Russian invaders even as Moscow pulls forces back from the strategic city of Kherson.

“The United States is not pressuring Ukraine,” Jake Sullivan, the president’s national security adviser, told reporters on Thursday. “We’re not insisting on things with Ukraine. What we are doing is consulting as partners and showing our support not just through public statements or moral support but through the tangible, physical support of the kind of military assistance I mentioned before.”

Indeed, the Pentagon on Thursday announced that it was sending another $400 million in military aid to Ukraine. Among the weapons being shipped will be the first mobile Avenger Air Defense Systems provided by the United States as well as missiles for HAWK air defense systems already provided by Spain, mortars, artillery rounds, Humvees, grenade launchers, cold weather gear and ammunition for the High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, or HIMARS, that have proved so effective in pushing back the Russians.

However, the Defense Department rebuffed Ukrainian requests for Gray Eagle MQ-1C drones, which American officials fear could be used to hit targets in Russian territory, risking a dangerous escalation of the war, The Wall Street Journal reported.

The question of where the United States stands on negotiations has animated conversations on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean in recent days as American, Ukrainian, Russian and European officials try to decipher the sometimes mixed signals from Washington.

A trip by Mr. Sullivan to Kyiv last week left some with the impression that the Biden administration was urging Mr. Zelensky to at least show willingness to negotiate, but American officials denied that.

Instead, they said, at the end of a meeting mainly focused on other issues related to the war, Mr. Sullivan suggested that Mr. Zelensky think about what “a just peace,” a phrase used by the Group of 7 nations last month, would look like when the time does arrive for negotiations down the road.

The confusion was exacerbated by ambiguous comments by Mr. Biden at a news conference on Wednesday. Asked if he thought Ukraine now had the leverage it needed to begin negotiations, the president left the door open. “It remains to be seen whether or not there’ll be a judgment made as to whether or not Ukraine is prepared to compromise with Russia,” he said.

Pressed later about whether he was suggesting that Ukraine consider giving up some territory, Mr. Biden quickly said no. “That’s up to the Ukrainians. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine,” he said, repeating the official line that any resolution has to be determined by Kyiv, not the United States or Europe. “I do know one thing: We’re not going to tell them what they have to do.”

Some current and former officials said the nuance of the administration’s stance has been lost. While not currently pressing for talks, the administration wants to be prepared for diplomacy at some later date when it would make sense.

“My sense is the administration is dipping its toe in the possibility of diplomacy,” said Charles A. Kupchan, a Georgetown University professor who served as a Europe adviser to President Barack Obama and recently wrote an essay promoting talks. “They’re trying to thread the needle. They want to introduce the possibility of diplomacy without appearing to be telling the Ukrainians what to do.” He added: “It’s setting the table, but it’s not sitting at the table.”

The evident willingness to entertain talks at some point has drawn sharp criticism from some foreign policy experts who argue that it would be a mistake to bet against Ukraine’s ability to win more of its territory back from Russian occupiers.

“The United States and European partners should not forestall the possibility, even likelihood, of more Ukrainian military success by insisting on a cease-fire in place or by assuming that it’s impossible for Ukraine to, for example, liberate the Donbas or even Crimea,” Daniel Fried, a former career diplomat now at the Atlantic Council, wrote on the Just Security website.

Mr. Zelensky and his aides reiterated this week that Ukraine had repeatedly proposed resuming peace talks with Russia, and that such talks could not begin until Russian troops withdraw and return the territory they have seized. But analysts noted that the Ukrainian leader did not repeat earlier statements that talks seemingly could not start while Mr. Putin was still leading Russia.

More broadly, there has been huge support among the Ukrainian public for sustained military offensives against Russian positions, and each announcement of Russian setbacks has been met with an outpouring of public enthusiasm. Even before the recent wave of Ukrainian military advances, Mr. Zelensky was under heavy and sustained political pressure to refuse any concession that would leave Russian forces in control of Ukrainian territory.

The debate in Washington comes as questions are being raised about the durability of American support for the Ukrainian war effort. Representative Kevin McCarthy of California, the Republican leader hoping to become House speaker in the newly elected Congress, has rejected a “blank check” in continued aid to Ukraine, although other Republican leaders, including Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, remain steadfast backers of Kyiv.

A group of progressive House Democrats recently released a letter recommending negotiations, then withdrew it under criticism. But some on the left continue to push for talks. “I believe that progressives have always advocated to leaning on diplomatic solutions,” Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Democrat of New York, told the Intercept this week. “We should continue to lean on that.”

In internal discussions at the White House, General Milley has been a strong voice for diplomacy but does not want to give the impression of undercutting the Ukrainians, officials said. He has pointed to satellite imagery showing that the Russians are digging trenches and establishing firm lines through much of the occupied territory in preparation for winter, when the fronts presumably will stabilize. The pullback from Kherson appeared to be aimed at setting up a more defensible position.

Given that, officials said, the general has argued that fighting may ease during the cold months with less chance of further fundamental change on the ground, offering a window of opportunity for talks. In White House discussions, he cites World War I, when the two sides engaged in years of trench warfare with little change in territory but millions of pointless casualties, an example he aired in his speech at the Economic Club of New York this week as well.

The point is not to reward Mr. Putin, officials said in describing the general’s view, but that maybe this is a time when Ukraine and its allies can start working toward a political solution because an enduring military solution may not be obtainable in the near future.

General Milley’s judgment is not shared by Mr. Biden or Mr. Sullivan, the officials said. Mr. Putin has shown no willingness to negotiate, they said, and the Ukrainians have been emboldened by their success on the battlefield, making them reluctant to trade away territory at the bargaining table.

If the United States pushed for talks at this point, the officials said, reflecting Mr. Sullivan’s point of view, that would send a message to Mr. Putin that all he had to do would be to drag out the war a little longer and eventually the Americans would do his work for him.

“Only Zelensky and his government can make those decisions,” said Steven Pifer, a former American ambassador to Ukraine now affiliated with Stanford University. “Washington should not be pressing him to do so, and at least so far, it appears that Washington understands that.”

Helene Cooper and Zach Montague contributed reporting from Washington, and Andrew E. Kramer from Snihurivka, Ukraine.

Re: While invading thru Chernobyl, Russian soldiers unburied the wrecked, undead Earth itself


There are no good guys in this picture. Most are caught between brutal Russians and Brutal Ukrainians -- if you survive the Russian assault you might be tortured or killed as a collaborator. None of this would be happening at all if the US had not insisted on installing fascists in Ukraine and pushing NATO into the region in spite of multiple agreements. Biden could end this today but proxy war feeds the military-industrial economic base of the cancer called the US. This needs to end b popular demand before it escalates to nuclear war. The climate damage -- especially after our (yes, our) blowing of the charged Nordstream pipeline will be wit us for many, many years to come and outweighs any of Biden's climate friendly policies.

Re: Against voting for Democrats


I vote for progressives. I do not vote for "centrist" corporate democrats nor or republicans. Neoliberal economics, the stubborn, hateful arrogant deafness and undermining of progressives by corporate dens feed fascism even more than voting for them directly does.

Re: Great Power Rivalry: Deepening of Differences between Stalinist Parties


Referring to a broad array of Marxist-Leninist parties as "Stalinist" reveals a tainted perspective. .

Spare the Dummy … and Trotsky!


Reply to a silly polemic against comrade John Reimann (and against the main target)

Spare the Dummy … and Trotsky!

Reply to a not very intelligent polemic of Alan Woods’ IMT on the slogan of “Arms for the Ukraine”

By Michael Pröbsting, RCIT, 11 November 2022

Ortho Trotskyist Blast at Marxmailian Over Ukraine

Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...>

"In fact, Reimann says socialists should support strengthening NATO,
which objectively means strengthening US imperialism, which is also
the main driving force behind the Ukrainian war effort. So a victory
for Ukraine would also mean a victory for US imperialism, which is
absolutely not a gain for the working class in Ukraine, Russia, or
anywhere else..."

More bile at

Michael Pugliese

Re: The Economist "imagines peace in Ukraine"

Richard Fidler

The Economist spells out its program for a postwar Ukraine once the latter has submitted to territorial concessions to Russia. Marv's post, to paraphrase him, is likewise "notable for what it omits": that those on the left like Marv calling for an immediate end to Ukraine's armed resistance fail to "imagine" an alternative to the kind of program for an amputated Ukraine spelled out by this leading organ of British capital, hardly a "staunch" supporter of Ukraine.

Fortunately, some on the genuine anti-imperialist left have begun to think through what the reconstruction of Ukraine following a Russian defeat could involve. In the forefront are the Ukrainian socialists of Sotsialny Rukh / Social Movement; their initial thinking is outlined in a document presented at their recent conference: "A Ukrainian Left under construction on several fronts," (see the proposals cited under the subtitle "Sotsialny Rukh and the war"). See also the webinars of the October conference on "Reconstruction and Justice in Post-War Ukraine," posted here:

And in the United States, the Ukraine Solidarity Network has outlined its "principles and goals," including Ukraine's right to reparations, cancellation of its debts, reconstruction without strings attached, and just and fair labor rights for its population. This Network, I am told, " was formed after the Socialism 2022 Conference in Chicago under the leadership of Spectre, New Politics, Against The Current, and Tempest journals plus associated political groups. These groups include DSA, Tempest Collective, International Marxist Humanist Organization, and Solidarity." The Network is "working closely with the U.K. Solidarity Campaign and Ukraine’s Sotsialyny Rukh to establish a Solidarity Network in the United States." I attach its Mission Statement.

And please, Marv, don't respond by reminding me that any alternative to Western imperialist plans for Ukraine is simply utopian, given the balance of class and national forces both in Ukraine and internationally. The international Left and progressive forces desperately need to find a way out of their current confusion amidst the unfolding multipolar global imperialism, and to "imagine" how we can begin to build the necessary alternative to capitalism and climate catastrophe. The defense and rebuilding of Ukraine sovereignty is an essential ingredient of that response.


-----Original Message-----
From: sp-canada-discussion@... <sp-canada-discussion@...> On Behalf Of Marv Gandall
Sent: November 10, 2022 3:53 PM
To: Socialist Project <sp-canada-discussion@...>; Marxmail <>
Subject: The Economist "imagines peace in Ukraine"

This leader from the staunchly pro-Ukraine Economist is, like other jittery Western publications of late, notable for what it omits as for what it contains - namely, no more mention of supporting the Ukrainian war effort until all of the Russian-controlled regions in the Donbas and Crimea are regained.

Instead, Ukraine simply "needs to keep its access to the Black Sea". "Many people focus on how much land Ukraine recaptures”, says The Economist, but "Ukraine’s victory will rest as much on the health of its democracy as on the extent of its territory”.

Accordingly, the US and NATO should focus on:

1. Postwar reconstruction, which will "require vast amounts of capital from private-sector investors” backed by seed money from governments and multilateral lenders who will have "the clout to police how the money is spent”.

2. Security guarantees "modelled on America’s relations with Israel”.

3. A vast Western rearmament program which ensures that its security guarantees to Ukraine can be met. "Work on bolstering weapons production should begin right away, by creating a pipeline of orders and rationalising procurement”. Otherwise, “if Mr Putin creates a failed state in Ukraine, NATO members will be the next targets of his aggression”

4. Bringing the Zelenskyy government into line with this program. The stakes, according to The Economist, are so great "for countless more people across Europe” beyond Ukraine that Western leaders that can no longer “wisely insist that Ukraine should determine its own objectives” because of "the threat to the security of the entire Atlantic alliance.”

* * *

Imagining peace in Ukraine
How a stable and successful country could emerge from the trauma of Russia’s invasion The Economist Nov 10th 2022 (paywalled)

IMAGINE A VICTORIOUS Ukraine in 2030. It is a democratic nation, preparing to join the European Union. Reconstruction is almost complete. The economy is growing fast; it is clean and diverse enough to keep corrupt oligarchs at bay. All this is underpinned by stout Ukrainian security. Defence against another invasion does not depend on the Kremlin’s goodwill, but on the sense that renewed Russian aggression would never succeed.

Today, as Russia’s tattered army appears to retreat from Kherson in the south, an end to the fighting still seems far off. But news that Ukraine and its backers are starting to outline their views of the future makes sense, because the coming months will determine what is possible at the decade’s end. It means thinking about how to rebuild post-war Ukraine, and the security guarantees needed to deter future invaders.

In the past, Western leaders have wisely insisted that Ukraine should determine its own objectives. Ukrainians are dying in a conflict all about the right of sovereign countries to decide their own future. If peace is foisted on them, it is less likely to last. However, Ukraine’s Western backers have interests at stake, too. If the war escalates, they could be sucked in. If Russia ends up denying Ukraine victory, by creating a failing state on its western borders, Vladimir Putin or his successors would threaten the security of the entire Atlantic alliance.

Ukraine also has reasons to share its plans for the future with NATO. At present the West rations arms and money partly to steer the war, accelerating the supply of advanced weaponry if Ukraine appears to be struggling, but refusing aircraft and the longest-range munitions for fear that it will press on too far—whatever that means. Ukraine should be more of a partner and less of a supplicant. Another reason for Ukraine to work together with its allies is to bind them in, especially in America. Nothing can guarantee the support of the next president (Donald Trump is not a fan, for example). But a successful, settled plan for the war and its aftermath is the best available assurance of continued backing.

Such a plan must include a framework for reconstruction. The Ukrainian people need to restore their shattered lives. More than that, if Ukraine’s economy fails, so will its democracy. Donors at a meeting in Berlin in October tried to sketch out a plan for rebuilding Ukraine and to estimate its costs. Patching the country up while the fighting continues, which could last another three years, will cost tens of billions of dollars, they reckoned. Initial reconstruction, lasting a further two years, might cost $100bn. A third phase—in effect, a Marshall Plan for Ukraine, probably costing even more—would seek to create an economy that is fit to join the EU.

Clearly, such plans require vast amounts of capital from private-sector investors. A few dozen governments and multilateral lenders will be involved in laying the groundwork to attract outside money. If their grants and loans are pilfered by oligarchs, the country will fail. Hence Ukraine and its backers must harness the national purpose forged in war to give anti-corruption groups the clout to police how the money is spent.

If Ukraine is to thrive, it also needs security. To be viable, Ukraine needs to keep its access to the Black Sea. Many people focus on how much land Ukraine recaptures; Mr Putin needs to suffer a decisive defeat so that his failure is unambiguous. Beyond that, though, Ukraine’s victory will rest as much on the health of its democracy as on the extent of its territory.

When the fighting does stop, Russia will continue to re-arm rapidly. The government in Kyiv will therefore need Western security guarantees that are more robust than those that spectacularly failed to deter Mr Putin in 2014 and, again, earlier this year. NATO membership would be the gold standard, under which a Russian attack on Ukraine would count as aggression against the entire alliance. But America and many of its allies are unwilling to court direct conflict with Russia. And Turkey, which is still delaying membership for Sweden and Finland, may resist.

A more plausible alternative, put forward in September by a Ukrainian official and a former NATO secretary-general, is modelled on America’s relations with Israel. The Kyiv Security Compact foresees a web of legally and politically binding commitments between Ukraine and its allies. Some countries will pledge military, financial and intelligence support if Russia attacks; others will commit to sanctions. The plan also calls for investment in weapons transfers and in Ukraine’s defence industry to be sustained over decades.

Be under no illusion how hard this compact will be to bring about. One worry is the state of the Western arms industry, which was run down after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It may struggle to sustain the supply of weapons and ammunition to Ukraine while the fighting continues, let alone outpace Russia as it re-arms when the war is over. Work on bolstering weapons production should begin right away, by creating a pipeline of orders and rationalising procurement.

The other worry is that the West may not have staying power. Polling of Republicans in America and voters in eastern Germany, and anti-war protests in Rome and Prague, suggest that support for Ukraine cannot be taken for granted.

Governments everywhere have limited supplies of money and attention. America has other business, such as with China in the Pacific (see Leader). After decades of contracting out its security to the United States, Europe has barely begun to reckon with the extra responsibilities it must take on.

The West needs to see that spending many billions of dollars in Ukraine is not an act of charity, but of self-preservation. In recent decades, Russia has started a war on its borders every few years. Mr Putin sees today’s conflict as a clash of civilisations between Russia and the West. Half-hearted Western support of Ukraine will not appease him; nor will it lead to the rebuilding of relations with Russia, as some Europeans hope.

On the contrary, it will convince him that the West is decadent and vulnerable. If Mr Putin creates a failed state in Ukraine, NATO members will be the next targets of his aggression. Ukraine’s dream of victory would ensure lasting peace for its 43m inhabitants. It would also ensure peace for countless more people across Europe.

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Re: While invading thru Chernobyl, Russian soldiers unburied the wrecked, undead Earth itself

Anthony Boynton

Thanks Brian!

While invading thru Chernobyl, Russian soldiers unburied the wrecked, undead Earth itself

Gibbons Brian


Disturbing and inhaling radioactive dust, in their haste Russian soldiers unburied the wrecked, undead Earth itself

"We cannot decide on the habitability of a place. Such a decision is made by that place itself."

Brian Gibbons

Kherson liberated

Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...>

Via , has many Tweets with video clips,
#Kherson city center ,

Ukrainian army moves from all sides into formerly Russian occupied
territory in Kherson oblast. I don’t see any fightings ongoing.
#Ukraine ,

Victory parades in Kherson Oblast. #Ukraine #Kherson

Michael Pugliese

It appears the SEIU isn't familiar w. cartoonist Walt Kelly

Gibbons Brian

130 union staff workers walked off the job last week after management with SEIU Local 2015 refused to bargain.

Brian Gibbons

Re : Degrowth

Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...>

Following on from, .

From the DB of the DSA , which has had a long thread with 95 replies
so far : subject line being : Support the 2023 DSA Degrowth Delegation
Proposal , a couple academic papers of note .

The anti-colonial politics of degrowth , by Jason Hickel,

Ecological economics and degrowth: Proposing a future research agenda
from the margins ,

Michael Pugliese

Re : Anarcho-communist resistance inside neo-Tsarist Russia

Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...>

Re : Krasnodar Partisans

Michael Pugliese <michael.098762001@...>

Anarchist guerrilla group and #BOAK/#БОАК affiliate, Glaz Okta,
attacked a military enlistment office in Bashkortostan Republic,
#Russia, using Molotov cocktails 1/:

Far-Left #BOAK Affiliate, #Glaz #Okta, Carried Out an #Arson #Attack
on a #Recruitment Office in #Bashkortostan Republic, #Russia Read

Video was shared the same day of partisans attacking an enlistment
office elsewhere in the far east of #Russia 3/:

#Russia: The Anarcho-Communist Combat Organization is claiming that
some of their partisans sabotaged electrical infrastructure of the
Russian railways, on the heels of a recent sabotage using explosives,
halting military cargo to #Belarus and ultimately to #Ukraine:

#Russia: Oct 25 the Anarcho-Communist Combat Organization (#БОАК)
claimed to have blown up a section of railway outside of Bryansk along
the “Nobozybkov-Zlynka stretch” linking Russian railways to both
#Ukraine & #Belarus. It is further claimed military cargo to was

Michael Pugliese

Re: Great Power Rivalry: Deepening of Differences between Stalinist Parties

Dayne Goodwin

interesting, informative, thank you

some DSA election work in L.A.

Dayne Goodwin

Election night with L.A.’s Democratic Socialists: Bernie Sanders impressions, revolution
by Brittny Mejia, Los Angeles Times, Nov. 10, 2022
  .  .  .
The race between L.A. City Councilmember Mitch O’Farrell and labor organizer Hugo Soto-Martinez was leaning in the latter’s favor. ...
  .  .  .
“Are you ready to lead this country, this city, this region into the 21st century? To a 21st century that works for the many, not the few?” Sukaton asked.

The crowd roared in response.

Soon after, Soto-Martinez took the microphone to resounding chants of “Hugo.” In a short speech, he shouted out the support he got from DSA-LA and the Unite Here Local 11 hotel workers union.

“The moment that made me the most happy was seeing this family, the Democratic Socialists of America, for the first time link up with organized labor,” Soto-Martinez said. “That is going to be the coalition that we need to build in order to truly change the city of Los Angeles.”

When we do that, he continued, “I know we’re going to be unstoppable.”
   #   #   #

Reminder: Forum/discussion on the results of midterm elections this Sunday

John Reimann

Ukraine Socialist Solidarity Campaign will be having a forum/discussion on the results of the midterm elections. Summary of what we'll discuss:

Regardless of the outcome, the election results have tremendous consequences, domestically and around the world.
• What is the meaning of the rise of Trump and his takeover of the Republican Party?
• What does that party actually represent? Is it just the same old Republicans, a fascist party, or something else?
• If they take over at least one house of congress, what will be the results domestically and internationally?
• What is the role of the Democratic Party?
• How do US political developments in general and this election in particular intersect with the rise of the far right, including fascism, globally?
• How does it relate to the “campist” left and what can the genuine left – socialist, anarchist and otherwise – do about it?

More information and register here:

“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https: also on Facebook

Great Power Rivalry: Deepening of Differences between Stalinist Parties


Great Power Rivalry: Deepening of Differences between Stalinist Parties

Notes on the XXII International Meeting of Communist and Workers’ Parties in Havana (and the so-called “Paris Declaration”)

By Michael Pröbsting, RCIT, 10 November 2022

My message to those who voted for the Oaklandsocialist candidate

John Reimann

So far, I got a total of 578 votes for the message that "I'm not vote-for-me-and-I'll-set-you-free candidate; I'm the working class socialist candidate." That was with having spent about $50 on the campaign and very little time. If even a third of those voters are willing to put their feet where their votes are, even a fifth in fact, then we have the start of a movement to transform Oakland politics. And possibly beyond. Whether they are or not remains to be seen.

See my full message here:
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https: also on Facebook