Date   

Re: “Self-Determination for Donbass”: A Reactionary Slogan in the Service of Russian Imperialism (Theses)

Michael Karadjis
 

That was a terrific piece Michael, fully agree that 'self-determination for Donbas' is a reactionary slogan of the type 'self-determination for Ulster'. While Chris expressed reservations about a Donbas referendum in the circumstances, I think it is mistaken to even compare it to East Timor. There is no Donbas nation.

John writes "After the establishment of the two fake "republics" and the war that followed, tens of thousands of people left the region. Since the Russian invasion, hundreds of thousands or (more likely) millions have left"

It's much worse than that John. Long before the Russian invasion, 3.3 million people - 50% of the Donbas population - had fled the region, some 1.8 million to elsewhere in Ukraine, and 1.5 million to Russia or Belarus. So aside from what we know of the attitudes of people still living in Donbas - ie, very few supported joining Russia, and even support for autonomy was rather mixed and far from overwhelming or even necessarily majority - any such referendum would exclude half the population who have been uprooted.  

Michael

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 2:27 PM Chris Slee <chris_w_slee@...> wrote:
I have thought about the idea of advocating an internationally supervised referendum.  One precedent for holding a referendum under difficult conditions was East Timor in 1999. The people voted for independence despite intimidation from pro-Indonesia militias.

Holding a referendum in Donbas would be even more difficult, because so many people have been forced to flee their homes.  It would be possible to set up polling booths in some of the places to which they have fled, but many would be likely to miss out.

I alternate between thinking it is an impractical idea and thinking it would be useful as a demand to put to Putin: you claim go be defending the people of Donbas, let them vote on whether they want to be part of Russia or not.

Putin would be unlikely to accept this demand unless he judged that the costs (military, economic and political) of continuing the war outweighed the benefits for him.  Hence it is not counterposed to arming the Ukrainian forces.

Chris Slee


.

From: marxmail@groups.io <marxmail@groups.io> on behalf of John Reimann <1999wildcat@...>
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:51 PM
To: marxmail@groups.io <marxmail@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [marxmail] “Self-Determination for Donbass”: A Reactionary Slogan in the Service of Russian Imperialism (Theses)
 
I agree with the general thesis of RCIT on this issue. What's more, we have to consider the call in the present context: After the establishment of the two fake "republics" and the war that followed, tens of thousands of people left the region. Since the Russian invasion, hundreds of thousands or (more likely) millions have left. If Russia retains military control over the region, which seems entirely possible, then I think the result will be that Russia will send millions of Russians into the region as settlers. It will not be entirely different from what Israel is doing in the West Bank. So, calling for "self determination" of Donbass would be like calling for self determination, community-by-community, in the West Bank.

John Reimann
--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

Dayne Goodwin
 

Good work John.  I didn't read your first version except for your brief introduction on marxmail  - 'rats leaving sinking ship'.  I think the closing phrase in new version is more accurate - "a lot is up in the air".
btw your second-to-last paragraph says "John Fetterman, his Democratic candidate" instead of John Fetterman his Democrat opponent

On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 10:29 PM John Reimann <1999wildcat@...> wrote:
I have changed both the title and the emphasis of this article. I think the original emphasis was mistaken. The new title (which should be at the same link) is: "Imagining the Unimaginable", which I think reflects the real significance of the hearing far better.


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

John Reimann
 

I have changed both the title and the emphasis of this article. I think the original emphasis was mistaken. The new title (which should be at the same link) is: "Imagining the Unimaginable", which I think reflects the real significance of the hearing far better.

JOhn Reimann

On Wed, Jun 29, 2022 at 7:12 AM John Reimann <1999wildcat@...> wrote:
"The rats seem to be leaving the sinking ship.

"On the sixth, and previously unscheduled day of the January 6 hearings, Cassidy Hutchinson, former top aide to Trump’s chief of staff Mark Meadows, testified. Apparently she only came forward recently (which in itself is a story as we will see).

"We were left imagining Trump actually leading the march to the Capitol with an armed crowd many times the actual size. In fact, that apparently was what Trump wanted. "
read more:
https://oaklandsocialist.com/2022/06/29/january-6-hearing-day-6-rats-leaving-sinking-ship/

--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Re: “Self-Determination for Donbass”: A Reactionary Slogan in the Service of Russian Imperialism (Theses)

Chris Slee
 

I have thought about the idea of advocating an internationally supervised referendum.  One precedent for holding a referendum under difficult conditions was East Timor in 1999. The people voted for independence despite intimidation from pro-Indonesia militias.

Holding a referendum in Donbas would be even more difficult, because so many people have been forced to flee their homes.  It would be possible to set up polling booths in some of the places to which they have fled, but many would be likely to miss out.

I alternate between thinking it is an impractical idea and thinking it would be useful as a demand to put to Putin: you claim go be defending the people of Donbas, let them vote on whether they want to be part of Russia or not.

Putin would be unlikely to accept this demand unless he judged that the costs (military, economic and political) of continuing the war outweighed the benefits for him.  Hence it is not counterposed to arming the Ukrainian forces.

Chris Slee


.


From: marxmail@groups.io <marxmail@groups.io> on behalf of John Reimann <1999wildcat@...>
Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:51 PM
To: marxmail@groups.io <marxmail@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [marxmail] “Self-Determination for Donbass”: A Reactionary Slogan in the Service of Russian Imperialism (Theses)
 
I agree with the general thesis of RCIT on this issue. What's more, we have to consider the call in the present context: After the establishment of the two fake "republics" and the war that followed, tens of thousands of people left the region. Since the Russian invasion, hundreds of thousands or (more likely) millions have left. If Russia retains military control over the region, which seems entirely possible, then I think the result will be that Russia will send millions of Russians into the region as settlers. It will not be entirely different from what Israel is doing in the West Bank. So, calling for "self determination" of Donbass would be like calling for self determination, community-by-community, in the West Bank.

John Reimann
--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Stalino-“Trotskyist” Chamber of Horrors

RKOB
 

Stalino-“Trotskyist” Chamber of Horrors

On a recently held “anti-war” conference organised by some “Trotskyists” as well as Russian Stalinist parties

By Michael Pröbsting, RCIT, 29 June 2022

https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/stalino-trotskyist-chamber-of-horrors/


Links articles on Russia and Ukraine

Chris Slee
 

From the editor of Links:

 I have compiled in one spot all the relevant articles to do with the current war here http://links.org.au/understanding-putin-russia-war-ukraine. To facilitate things, I have grouped articles into categories (Ukrainian voices, Russian opposition, debates on character of the war, discussion on Russian imperialism, etc) and incorporated some older pieces that either provide relevant background or are contributions to ongoing debates.



The Belated Return of Lumumba's Tooth Shows the Tenacity of Colonialism

Dennis Brasky
 

The only reason that can be offered for keeping a man’s tooth for 61 years knowing that it was obtained through torture and murder is that the cruelty is the point. Colonisation was, after all, a projection of power through cruelty, rationalised by pseudo-intellectual arguments about racial superiority and difference. The fate of Lumumba’s tooth shows that the point of European imperialism was not just economic or social but to offer an outlet for the unchecked cruelty that was increasingly constrained by political change in Europe. Arguably, the ability to project cruelty elsewhere made it possible to contemplate and pursue a different way of organising political life in Europe after several centuries of intense conflict.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/6/25/lumumbas-tooth-returned-racist-logic-of-colonisation-endures



Cries For Justice Echo Forty Years Later in the Re-Release of ‘Who Killed Vincent Chin?’

Dennis Brasky
 

The violent killing resonates with attacks on Asian Americans that persist today.

https://progressive.org/latest/rerelease-who-killed-vincent-chin-george-220621/



Sinn Féin Leader Mary Lou McDonald's speech marking centenary of the outbreak of the Civil War

Ken Hiebert
 

If, like me, you are largely ignorant of this history, you will benefit from watching this speech. 14 minutes
ken h


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d17Z-eUlec


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

Vladimiro Giacche'
 

Except the President now is not Nixon/Trump, but Biden… 

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 29 giu 2022, alle ore 23:14, sartesian@... ha scritto:

as were the Watergate hearings. Interesting parallel-- 1973 OPEC, inflation, 1974 largest number of worker days lost since to strikes since ??   Now this, Covid, recession, inflation, and increase labor activity.  

Nixon is rolling in his grave-- "I told that damn Kissinger I could have gotten away with it."   Probably not though, no Rupert Murdoch to make it all right.
_._,_._,_



Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

sartesian@...
 

as were the Watergate hearings. Interesting parallel-- 1973 OPEC, inflation, 1974 largest number of worker days lost since to strikes since ??   Now this, Covid, recession, inflation, and increase labor activity.  

Nixon is rolling in his grave-- "I told that damn Kissinger I could have gotten away with it."   Probably not though, no Rupert Murdoch to make it all right.


Review of 'Joe Stafford: A Tale of Revolution'

Charlie
 

Review of 'Joe Stafford: A Tale of Revolution'

Written by Jenny Farrell

When is the last time you read an exciting story about the working class engaged in determined and successful struggle? This is just what Charles Andrews sets out to do in his newly published novelette Joe Stafford: A Tale of Revolution.
...
Middle-class life dominates all the arts – people in well-paid jobs, who live in beautiful houses, are well-educated and whose children’s future is set to emulate their lifestyle. Where working-class people appear, they are drawn from a perspective that reveals prejudice and unfamiliarity with the strengths of the working class, at times with sugary sentimentality and a vague suggestion that they might escape from the working-class condition by becoming middle-class.

Working-class lives are shown as deprived, lacking refinement, with alcoholism, crime and drug abuse featuring largely. Working-class characters are hardly ever depicted in the context of their work on the shopfloor, or in situations where their strengths, creativity, skills, and intelligence might be highlighted, never in ways where it may become clear that without them, everything could come to a standstill, or that they are the preservers of humanity in a barbaric world, that they will change society for a better future. Working-class heroes are very rare indeed.

Against this background, Charles Andrews’ novelette Joe Stafford: A Tale of Revolution must be welcomed....

continues at https://www.culturematters.org.uk/index.php/arts/fiction/item/4016-the-working-class-triumph-review-of-joe-stafford-a-tale-of-revolution-by-charles-andrews


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

David Walters
 

We will see what happens. These hearings are high entertainment from afar. I had always thought Trump chickened out on Jan 6 and wanted to go to the WH to watch. I appear to have been wrong on that. On the SS agents: that will be interesting to see if they confirm his, Trump's, childish behavior. I'm not willing to bet they will confirm the story of the last witness, it being second hand and all, "Oath" or no "Oath".

David


Newsweek: Trump's Secret Service Detail 'Cheered on the Insurrection'—Carol Leonnig

Bradley Mayer
 

More evidence of where the American Siloviki stand politically:  Far Right!  Biden Democrats want to build them back into better Far Rightists after the reversals they suffered in the Floyd uprising:

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-secret-service-insurrection-carol-leonnig-january-6-capitol-1720235

Carol Leonnig addresses the issue of Hutchinson's' hearsay.


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

Bradley Mayer
 

Speaking of irrationality, the political regime provides both security protection, and legal protection, to the very forces trying to overthrow the political regime.

The Far Right never gets the "leftist" treatment:  Simple assassination.  


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

Bradley Mayer
 

But...

Secret Service officials: Agents willing to dispute Trump SUV incident under oath
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/06/29/secret-service-donald-trump-cassidy-hutchinson-january-6-hearing-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/


The big contributors to inflation you're not hearing about: profiteering corporations | Michael Hiltzik | The Los Angeles Times via Yahoo Finance

Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo
 


Re: January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

Walter Lippmann
 

Stinking ship.


On Wed, Jun 29, 2022, 7:12 AM John Reimann <1999wildcat@...> wrote:
"The rats seem to be leaving the sinking ship.

"On the sixth, and previously unscheduled day of the January 6 hearings, Cassidy Hutchinson, former top aide to Trump’s chief of staff Mark Meadows, testified. Apparently she only came forward recently (which in itself is a story as we will see).

"We were left imagining Trump actually leading the march to the Capitol with an armed crowd many times the actual size. In fact, that apparently was what Trump wanted. "
read more:
https://oaklandsocialist.com/2022/06/29/january-6-hearing-day-6-rats-leaving-sinking-ship/

--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Israel is withholding information about U.S. journalist’s killing 6 weeks ago — NPR

Dennis Brasky
 

NPR’s latest report is trailblazing for an American news organization in documenting the pattern of Israeli impunity. Estrin cites Israel’s excuse about Abu Akleh– we can’t investigate without the bullet, and the Palestinian Authority has it. But he promptly quotes Avner Gvaryahu of the Israeli veterans’ group, Breaking the Silence, about Israel’s obfuscation game.

“This ambiguity is actually helpful for the military and for the Israeli government to not take more responsibility… There is still a lot that isn’t transparent in terms of what the army itself knows… What were his orders? What did the other soldiers here? I can’t even imagine a situation when we have a soldier alone in a vehicle, right? There’s a driver. There’s other soldiers. There’s commanders with them. Anyone who is seeking the truth should demand to make that information public.”

That is key. Those who seek the truth should be making demands on Israel now. But the State Department is a joke on this issue, accepting the Israeli lies, even as reporters shake their heads. Joe Biden doesn’t want Abu Akleh to come in between himself and Israel when he visits in July, or in the runups to the midterms. Just like he wants Jamal Khashoggi’s murder to go away.                    https://mondoweiss.net/2022/06/israel-is-withholding-information-about-u-s-journalists-killing-6-weeks-ago-npr/



January 6 hearing day 6: rats leaving sinking ship?

John Reimann
 

"The rats seem to be leaving the sinking ship.

"On the sixth, and previously unscheduled day of the January 6 hearings, Cassidy Hutchinson, former top aide to Trump’s chief of staff Mark Meadows, testified. Apparently she only came forward recently (which in itself is a story as we will see).

"We were left imagining Trump actually leading the march to the Capitol with an armed crowd many times the actual size. In fact, that apparently was what Trump wanted. "
read more:
https://oaklandsocialist.com/2022/06/29/january-6-hearing-day-6-rats-leaving-sinking-ship/

--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook

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