Date   

Re: Ukrainian communists pictured alive but face pressure to admit to trumped-up charges | Steve Sweeney | The Morning Star

Mark Baugher
 

...
I could parse every one your statements, but in the end it all comes down to the appeal above, and that is your appeal to authority.
It's a start, not an end: Why do we bother to study tens of thousands of pages written by mostly dead people who were concerned about forgotten events? Those pages are the repository of past knowledge, experiences and lessons from people who helped shape events. In crises like a military invasion, it's valuable to start by examining how they approached similar circumstances, what's the same and what's different That's not an "appeal to authority" fallacy, particularly when the authorities are debating diametrically opposed views, like Luxemburg and Lenin on the "national question."

You provide not a shred of concrete analysis of the situation in Ukraine, the "macro" forces propelling this conflict, and ignore completely the critical issue which, since 1848 has been the independent program of the working class for social revolution.

Then why not apply that program of the working class for social revolution? My "concrete analysis" is that you misunderstand or just ignore the programmatic position on the national questions and nationalities. What do you think they got right and what do you think they got wrong? It's a place to start, not end. But you haven't started.

And please be respectful. It's not true what you say about me. I wrote yesterday that the forces propelling this conflict include expansion of NATO over three decades when the putative reasons for its existence no longer existed, and I said that Russia is trying to reconstruct the Czarist prison house of nations by reclaiming Ukraine as its crown jewel. Isn't that "macro" enough? Or is that not enough "concrete analysis."


We get none of that. We get the appeal to "tradition" of the "fathers"

I appealed to a mother as well.

...
Engels? Are we to moor ourselves to the tradition that has Engels endorsing the US war on behalf of its slaveholders against Mexico? Should we moor ourselves to the tradition of Engels in 1848 who applauded the French conquest of Algeria calling it "an important and fortunate fact for the progress of civilization"? Or should we moor ourselves to the position he took 9 years later, denouncing that conquest? Or the position he wanted Marx and the IWMA to take, uncritically endorsing Germany in the Franco-Prussian war as it would quicken the consolidation of the German working class? Fortunately the communards didn't give a rat's ass about Engels' arguments.

Lenin? Should we moor ourselves to the position that argued revolutionary defeatism, that warned against dissipating the programmatic independence of the proletariat within the eruption of "national liberation" in the colonies? Or do we moor ourselves in the tradition of the 3rd Intl, which with the approval of Lenin and Trotsky puts forth the Joffe-Sun manifesto declaring communism unsuited for China, and vice-versa, and uncritically support Sun and order the young communist party to adhere to the discipline of the GMT?

You forgot to mention that Marx used the n-word.


CLR James? That tradition? Would it be the tradition of the Johnson Forest Tendency? The Third Camp? of Pan-Africanism and Nkrumaisim? Which tradition do you want?

I want the tradition where activists engage in a struggle rather than stand aside carping that it's not proletarian-pristine enough for them - that's the hallmark of sectarianism.

So, what would you have us do about Ukraine? Should we demand that Russia withdraw? That NATO be dismantled?

Mark




Re: Moderators’ Statement

Michael Meeropol
 

thank you --- hope it's not redundant to thank the three who are carrying on Louis' tradition and --- I think this does not trash Louis to admit it --- improving on it!

Solidarity forever!!

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 11:21 AM Anthony Boynton <anthony.boynton@...> wrote:

Moderators’ Statement

Let a thousand debates bloom!



Re: Jacobinism and the labour theory of value | Paul Cockshott | Midwestern Marx

Michael Meeropol
 

Charlie, that doesn't work --- because labor time is in hours --- we still need a way to turn those hours into a "monetary equivalent" --- if we are using an LTV approach then "labor hours" includes living and "dead" labor (labor congealed in fixed capital and inventories) --- so what dollar figure do we use to multiply the number of labor hours by --- that was my original question ...

the quote from Cockshott says you find the monetary equivalent of labor time by dividing labor hours into total output which BY DEFINITION "proves" the LTV by turning the "evidence" into a tautology --- that is what is confusing me ....that cannot be what Cockshott means ....



On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 10:24 PM Charlie <charles1848@...> wrote:
M. M. asks, "Where does the MONETARY EQUIVALENT OF LABOR come from?" Cockshott defined it: "...Marxist economists term the Monetary Equivalent of Labour Time. This parameter can be fixed by looking at the total monetary value of output in an economy versus the total labour used." That is, the total monetary value is the sum of final prices. The total labor used is, for Cockshott, the total hours put in.
_._,_._,_


Re: the good work of LABOR NOTES

Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo
 


There is also a nice write up in today's Jacobin:  The Beating Heart of the US Labor Movement Was at Labor Notes (jacobin.com)

And here is Rand Wilson’s report  in *The Nation*. . . .

https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/labor-notes-conference/

Labor’s Coachella

The 2022 Labor Notes Conference gathered thousands of unionists in Chicago, uniting worker-led reform movements.

Reading about an event you didn’t attend isn’t always fun. After all, now it’s over, and you missed it. And unless you were there and could feel the passion, why would you care who attended and what was said? 

That’s the challenge of reporting on the 2022 Labor Notes Conference that convened last weekend in Chicago. Yes, there were thousands of rank-and-file union members, and a growing cadre of not-yet-union workers from across the country. Yes, great speakers too: Senator Bernie Sanders, newly elected Teamsters President Sean O’Brien, and Stacy Davis Gates, president-elect of the Chicago Teachers Union

But the real question is what from the conference will be of lasting importance to the labor activists—and beyond that—to the progressive movement as a whole?

To answer that question, you’ve got to understand the role that Labor Notes has played over the last 40 years in “putting the movement back in the labor movement.” What started out in the late 1970s as a monthly magazine, soon began publishing books and holding national conferences. In the 2000s, it started holding local Troublemakers Schools organized by activists in their own cities. Labor Notes is an invaluable network that connects workers from different unions, worker centers, industries, communities, and countries to strengthen the movement from the bottom up.

Speaking at the Saturday banquet dinner, Jesse Sharkey, the current president of the militant Chicago Teachers Union, summed it up well, “Labor Notes is where we trained our activists, it’s where we recruited key staffers, and where we soaked up new skills, insights, and approaches.” And he pointed out that the magazine and biannual conferences is what has connected him and hundreds of others to the radical traditions of industrial unionism.

Labor Notes has been that sustaining connection for me. By the time I was a young radical organizer in the late ’70s and early ’80s, many of the left-leaning labor activists were long gone: expelled during the McCarthy period. Back then, I wasn’t exactly embraced by union leadership; in fact most were downright hostile. Subscribing to Labor Notes was a lifeline of practical organizing tips and inspiration that exposed me to other like-minded labor activists and created a community of fellow travelers.

That’s probably why I’ve attended every Labor Notes conference, except one, since its first meeting over 40 years ago.

There are two important reform currents in the labor movement. They aren’t at all contradictory, but activists tend to fall in one group or another. One side—call it the “rank and file strategy”—holds that to build a revived movement, we need to energize the rank and file and elect new, militant leaders. The other tendency says, change will more likely come from organizing the millions of unorganized workers into new or existing unions.

Labor Notes’ origins are rooted in the rank-and-file strategy. Our early conferences were largely a confab of pale, stale, and male dissident members from the auto, steel, coal, and trucking industries. These meetings provided opportunities to build internal reform caucuses and share our experiences with others seeking to change their unions. The most successful example being Teamsters for a Democratic Union, the reform caucus that was started in the 1970s to fight corruption and build rank-and-file power. After 20 plus years of complacent national leadership under James P. Hoffa, in 2021 TDU formed a coalition to oust his chosen successor and elect Sean O’Brien.

Over the years, as the economy and the labor movement changed, Labor Notes evolved, especially since the 2008 Great Recession. Without abandoning the existing rank and file, Labor Notes is now a significant resource for the uprising of new and nontraditional worker organizing. And our conferences have blossomed into what one member called “Labor’s Coachella,” a festival of over 200 workshops, panels, and meet-ups where thousands of activists—young and old—share their lessons of building a more democratic, militant, and inclusive labor movement. It’s hard to convey the excitement generated by having hundreds of Starbucks, Amazon, and other workers who are self-organizing and leading the formation of new unions.

And it’s a huge credit the magazine’s staff and volunteer policy committee that they have been able to transcend Labor Notes’ origins and keep pace with this “movement moment.”

This year I attended with my 32-year-old daughter Marlie, a food justice organizer. It was her first Labor Notes conference. When I caught up with her at the end of the first day, she marveled at the racial, gender, and age diversity of the participants. She was also impressed with how many workshops were relevant to her work outside of the labor movement.

At the beginning of the conference, we held a special meeting of rank-and-file organizers from the new Amazon Labor Union; the Bessemer, Alabama workers organizing with RWDSU; Teamster organizers; and members of a national grassroots network, Amazonians United. The meeting included Amazon workers from Poland and Germany as well as representatives from many of the workers centers and nonprofit advocacy organizations that are supporting the organizing at Amazon. Each of these groups have different strategies and philosophies toward building worker power at Amazon. Labor Notes was in the unique position to help us to get everyone into one room for the first time to share our experiences and begin creating a supportive community of organizers. 

Similar meetings of Starbucks workers, as well as workers in health care, education, auto, postal, media, building trades, railroad, trucking, and telecom industries also took place at the conference.

Throughout the weekend there was an emphasis on developing smart contract campaigns and powerful strike strategies. There were dozens of workshops on member-to-member communications, overcoming apathy, strike readiness, and techniques to identify employer vulnerabilities. And at every turn, there were celebrations of the many recent successful strikes including those at NabiscoJohn DeereSt. Vincent Hospital, and the Minneapolis Public Schools.

A workshop I co-facilitated, Get Strike Ready, was packed with Teamsters preparing for their national contract campaign and negotiations with UPS next year. They have high expectations for the next contract, spurred on by a rousing speech from International President O’Brien the previous evening.

In addition to Starbucks and Amazon workers meetings, the conference also hosted meetings of Teamsters for a Democratic Union, the United Caucuses of Rank-and-file Educators, and the Great Labor Arts Exchange (an annual gathering of musicians and artists). At the banquet dinner, Labor Notes gave its annual Troublemakers Awards to TDU, the UAW reform caucus Unite All Workers for Democracy, the gig-worker network Los Deliveristas, the social movement artist Ricardo Levins Morales, and the late author and labor strategist Mike Parker.

Over the last four decades of Labor Notes conferences, the idea that achieving labor’s objectives might also be tied to a political struggle for socialism has gone from a whisper to a shout. Judging by the number of Bernie T-shirts that attendees were wearing, there are plenty of activists who were energized by the 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns and are now active, like me, at some level inside the Democratic Party. Yet on the cusp of the 2022 mid-terms, it was surprising that there were no workshops addressing the political challenges of getting out the labor vote, dealing with corporate Democrats, or contending for power within the Democratic Party. It’s a blind spot that should be addressed in the future.

Without a doubt, the sharing of lessons and the networking between activists will bear fruit in the labor struggles and strikes that will unfold over the years to come. I’m already looking forward to our next meeting in 2024, confident that our numbers will increase, and that our experience in the class struggle will be deeper and more strategic. It’s a historic moment for workers and their unions, so bosses beware: A new labor movement is rising, and we’re building momentum for far more than a raise. We won’t settle for anything less than “a future we can believe in.”

Rand Wilson has worked as a union organizer and labor communicator for more than 40 years. He currently is a part-time organizer with Teamsters for a Democratic Union



Emmanuel Macron falters as Melenchon rises | Nick Wright |The Morning Star

Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo
 


https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/emmanuel-macron-falters-as-melenchon-rises

Emmanuel Macron falters as Melenchon rises

For the first time in decades, France’s president will not command National Assembly majority — and the left-wing Nupes now makes up the second-largest bloc. But what next for this deeply divided progressive alliance, asks NICK WRIGHT

Jean-Luc Melenchon delivers his speech in his election night headquarters, Sunday, June 19, 2022 in Paris.

THE Sunday night takeaway from the French legislative elections was that the political creation of two times President Emmanuel Macron, running as Ensemble, had lost its parliamentary majority.

This was a big defeat for the EU establishment, the big-business and banker caste of neoliberals who dispose of political, social and economic power in the French Republic.

Nupes, the new electoral alliance of Jean-Luc Melenchon’s La France Insoumise (“France unbowed”), Greens, communists and socialists has arrived at second place — and on the far right Marie Le Pen’s Rassemblement National reaped the benefit of Macron’s maladroit strategy to come a strong third.

The new National Assembly contains 201 seats for Macron’s electoral vehicle Ensemble. Nupes is on 142, Les Republicaines — the rebranded traditional right-wing ruling Gaullist party has 64, while the Rassemblement National has broken through with 89 seats. There is another dozen or so leftwingers and regionalists, a couple of extreme right-wing independents and half-a-dozen local heroes.

The voting totals deliver a different picture, with the right-wing establishment parties over-represented, the extreme right slightly under-represented and the left very substantially under-represented. Ensemble won 38.7 per cent and gained 35 per cent of the seats, Nupes 31.6 per cent and 25 per cent of the seats, Rassemblement National 17.3 per cent and 15 per cent of the seats while the Union of the Right and Centre at 7.29 per cent harvested 11 per cent of the seats.

These are the bare figures but the politics is both more complex and more interesting.

l’Humanite described the results as “a stinging defeat for the newly re-elected president, whose second five-year term promises to be under very different auspices from 2017, when Macron’s vehicle alone won 308 seats.”

Several of the most reactionary ministers lost their seats, the social composition of the Palais Bourbon is now rather different, while — without a majority and with two substantial opposition blocs representing powerful social forces that do not fully subscribe to the neoliberal orthodoxy which Macron personifies — France’s presidential system will be tested.

The forces of the right, the liberals and neoliberals assembled around Macron include a very substantial part of the Parti Socialiste and Macron chose as his front runner a former PS figure.

The rump Parti Socialiste barely survived the losses of the last few years and overcame grandee objections to its participation in Nupes. It has thus has narrowly avoided extinction, and despite its presidential candidate receiving fewer votes than the French Communist Party’s Fabien Roussel, has finished up with substantially more deputies.

The Greens did well from the new alliance gaining 23 seats up from the single deputy in the previous Assembly.

If we compare this election with 10 years ago the establishment parties — the parties of government, of the state — i.e. the Parti Socialiste, Les Republicaines (then known as the Union of the Presidential Majority), and the middle of the road MoDem (now absorbed into in Macron’s coalition) — captured between them nearly two-thirds of the first-round vote. This model is now broken and these forces command barely four in 10 voters. Between them Nupes and the extreme right assemble an absolute majority of those who vote.

Put another way, orthodox neoliberal supporters of the system can mobilise barely one in four of those entitled to vote. This is an incipient crisis of legitimacy for Macron and for France’s capitalist order.

While the wide spectrum of social forces represented by Nupes now are better represented in the National Assembly there still remains an absolute majority of the French electorate unengaged in formal politics and in this majority there is a very large working-class component. The abstention rate was 54 per cent and this highlights both a crisis of legitimacy and a weakness in the Nupes strategy.

Traditionally the two-stage French electoral system is characterised by a first round with a very diverse range of political forces on the ballot paper. But in this first round Nupes candidates, now united in a formal alliance, faced no significant rivals on the left.

This maximised their initial vote but left little potential for gains in the second round.

The Nupes strategy — in theory — was then to mobilise the abstentionists with its programme — a monthly minimum wage of €1,500, wage increases, retirement at 60, the allowance of €1,063 for young people, plus a programme of ecological planning.

Melenchon’s approach was illuminated by a telling phrase in appealing to “faches pas fachos” — angry non-fascist voters. There seems to be little evidence of this working to any significant extent.

This enormous reservoir of voters, many of them veterans of the Gilets Jaunes protests, the artisans, rural traders and dispossessed whose hatred of Macron’s neoliberal economic agenda and its direct effect on the way they live was seen as a reserve.

This did not happen, and in addition, the expectation that in a second round contest where a Nupes candidate faced a fascist that centrist, Gaullist and “Macronie” voters would back the left to defeat the far right did not happen to any great extent either. Centre and right-wing voters, responsive to Macron’s presentation of the left as “extremist” equals to the Rassemblement National either abstained or voted with the extreme right.

Here is two kinds of abstentionism. An enormous pool of voters, overwhelmingly poor, marginalised and working class are unconvinced that voting offers them anything worth the effort and another group, more wealthy, older and comfortable with the system cannot bring themselves to vote for the heterogeneous “left” even when this means a fascist is elected.

Macron’s hypocrisy is there for all to see when you compare his red-baiting in this election with his appeal to the left to vote for his candidates when confronted with Le Pen in the presidential election.

Perhaps it was in a burst of Gramscian “optimism of the will” that l’Humanite suggested that overcoming the working-class abstentionists tendency “is the challenge for the years to come.”

“The performance of the Nupes on Sunday, unexpected a few weeks ago, is a first and promising step” wrote l’Humanite’s Maud Vergnol.

Against this optimistic vision there exists a strong “pessimism of the intellect” expressed in considerable disquiet among French Communists not only about the outcome for the party in these elections but also about the the whole strategy.

The PCF leadership naturally maintains a positive posture and stresses the unity of the forces assembled in Nupes but in early exchanges the leader of the La France Insoumise group in the National Assembly Tweeted Jean-Luc Melenchon’s proposal to create a single Nupes group in the Assembly. This was instantly rebuffed by the PCF, the PS and the Greens who reminded Melenchon’s mouthpiece that their original agreement specified the autonomy of the groups in the National Assembly.

The PCF contingent of 12 deputies is allied in a “technical group” with eight left-wing deputies from France’s overseas territories.

With social-democratic politics now substantially reconstituted around La France Insoumise and this itself a highly fluid, somewhat unstable and politically heterogeneous formation politics is likely to undergo big changes with the PCF compelled to take account of the new realities in which LFI contains a distinct hegemonic tendency and a certain hostility to the PCF.

The PCF fights hard to retain its strongholds — both where it can win a direct mandate with a majority and the places where it constitutes well-organised, mostly working-class and intransigent opposition.

It retains considerable influence and holds many positions in local government but in very many cases this has been in a mutually advantageous but often highly conflicted relationship with the Parti Socialiste.

Where in previous parliamentary elections the PCF ran well-organised and effective campaigns and had a highly visible presence in hundreds of circomstcriptions in this election its communist profile was muted, its distinctive working-class polices lost and could present candidates in only a small minority of places. There is some unhappiness where well established local figures were sidelined.

Especially in the North the PCF directly competes for working-class votes with Rassemblement National — winning some and losing others — where the notional “republican front” in which all parties unite to defeat the far right is largely abandoned when the PCF fights alone.

The regions in which Rassemblement National deputies were elected are set to become an intense battleground. The social base of the far right includes many reactionary groupings in French life from unrepentant fascists to catholic traditionalists; para military squads and reactionary empire nostalgics; Algerie Francaise veterans and disgruntled petty bourgeois as well as many workers where mining and manufacturing jobs have vanished.

The battle for working-class hegemony has as its foundation the battle to defeat every manifestation of ruling-class ideology among workers and this is impossible without a clear socialist vision grounded in an analysis of the problems of contemporary capitalism and practical proposals to resolve the problems workers face.

One analysis has it that Macron and his backer’s nurtured the bizarre anti-semite Eric Zemmour to weaken Marine Le Pen’s anticipated presidential second round challenge. If so this was an echo of earlier times when the Parti Socialiste president Mitterrand “manufactured” the Front National of Marine Le Pen’s father to split the right. This time the strategy failed, Marine Le Pen proved too adroit and rather than the RN being confined to a few marginal seats it now has a powerful group in the assembly.

This the consequence of Macron’s “two extremes” strategy which flows from the racist, anti-migrant and xenophobic positions taken by his increasingly socially iliberal and economically neoliberal government.

The sharp polarisation between Nupes, which has a slight lead in the first round, and a defensive and alarmed Ensemble meant that Rassemblement National had smoother second-round contest. Macron’s conspicuous failure to invoke “republican front rhetoric” to defeat Le Pen’s candidates means the far right has broken out of its regional bases and is now represented in over a third of the departments. Le Monde’s headline on June 22 made it clear: “The republican front no longer rules.”

Thus the left as a whole and the working-class-orientated left in particular has to contend with two adversaries on the right in circumstances where the electoral front in which it participates — although united on a raft of progressive policies — is deeply divided over strategic conceptions, the character of the EU and industrial and energy policy.

Nick Wright blogs at 21centurymanifesto.




Re: the good work of LABOR NOTES

Charles Keener
 


There is also a nice write up in today's Jacobin:  The Beating Heart of the US Labor Movement Was at Labor Notes (jacobin.com)

Charles


the good work of LABOR NOTES

Dayne Goodwin
 

LABOR NOTES conference looks to renewed working-class militancy
by Erwin Freed, Workers Voice, June 18

The annual Labor Notes conference began on Friday, June 17, at the Hyatt Regency Hotel and Conference Center in Rosemont, Ill. Labor Notes is an organization and publication covering union struggles around the country. The conference is a much-anticipated gathering of left-wing and international trade unionists and supporters coming together to discuss their struggles, the politics of the union movement, and how to build a pole of “class-struggle unionism” based on solidarity and militancy.

The conference comes at a time when the working class in the United States is on the rise, expanding the scope of organizing new shops and rediscovering the weapon of the strike. These developments are being reflected in both the size and subjects present at Labor Notes. At Friday’s main session, Labor Notes’ editor and the Master of Ceremonies of the session, Alexandra Bradbury, stated that this year’s attendance of over 4000 people is far and away the largest in its over 30-year history.

The topics of panels also indicate the multiple fronts on which labor is fighting and the desire to connect struggles. The cornerstone of the Labor Notes conference are presentations from workers who have recently gone on strike, organized new shops, or generally been in motion. These are presented by speakers who won strikes in manufacturing, health care, education, construction, and the service sector—to name a few.

There are also a number of sessions on the role workers play in fighting for social change on and off the shop floor. These include multiple discussions on organizing against attacks on Queer rights, the centrality to the labor movement of fighting white supremacy, building a climate movement focused on taking profit out of energy production, and many more connections between social struggles and organized labor. There are also many useful “nuts and bolts” organizer trainings.

Taken together, the conference is providing a space to discuss how the working class can fight and win against the ongoing attacks on labor—including two-tier job structures—as well as the ruling-class drive against reproductive rights and the LGBTQIA+, Black, Indigenous, immigrant, and other communities.   .  .  .


 


Ukraine: Finally Got the News?

Dayne Goodwin
 

the struggle continues (see June 4 video below), thanks Greg

From Palestine to Ukraine: Internationalism, Anti-Imperialism and the U.S. Left


On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 6:01 AM Greg McDonald <gregmc59@...> wrote:
Worker’s Voice ran a solidarity campaign for Ukraine. I’m pretty sure it was a one shot deal. I made a contribution.


Re: solidarity with the Ukrainian resistance!

sartesian@...
 

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 07:32 PM, John Reimann wrote:
Sartesian asks about the different forms of the class struggle under the condition of the invasion, and specifically the position on Ukraine joining NATO and the EU. Whether Ukraine wants to join either of those unions is up to the people of Ukraine.
And that's JR's answer to how the class struggle changes?  Passivity, silence, and "it's up to the "people"?  What people?  This isn't a change in class struggle. It's abandonment, capitulation.  Oh yeah we're all supposed to get behind the battling Ukrainian govt so the "people" can self-determine themselves right into the arms of imperialism.


Re: Moderators’ Statement

Les Schaffer
 

Mark:

agreed.

what i am working on currently is statistics on posting to the list. How many people post how many times a month. who starts threads; who starts threads that engage a number of subscribers. the value here is finding ways to encourage people currently subscribed but lurking to join the discussions while moderating existing posters. we are debating whether or not to release these stats to the list with subscriber names. but as stated in the footers in each message, the list is already publicly archived.

my sense is some perhaps small fraction of comrades would be willing to share something about themselves: approximate location, political stance, etc. i am thinking of ways how to use groups.io interface to aggregate such data, possibly suitably de-identified if so desired.

but to your point, Lou and I have always -- to my knowledge -- respected the privacy needs of individuals, without question.

Les

On 6/22/22 1:37 PM, Mark Baugher wrote:
On Jun 22, 2022, at 8:21 AM, Anthony Boynton <anthony.boynton@...> wrote:
Les is currently working on statistics to better define who is currently on the list although it will not completely answer all the questions you may have.
I wonder about the value and wisdom of doing this. Some of us opt for full identification, some partial, and some might want to remain anonymous for reasons such as where they live or what they do. So I don't think we necessarily want to publicize how many people come from which place, particularly if the place has no free speech and association rights.

Mark


Re: Counterpunch: Slavoj Zizek Does His Christopher Hitchens Impression

John Edmundson
 

To be clear, my reference was to this:

"Because, whether our opponents stand openly with the Putin regime as with the PSL, the Becker Bros., etc., or objectively (if not in their own minds) stand with the Putin regime by making demands that the Ukranians not accept weapons from NATO while being invaded, or stop fighting and negotiate "peace at any price" while under invasion and occupation, these all have crossed a political Rubicon, a red line of treason to leftism, socialism, anti-imperialism, the proletariat, Marxism, and social revolution, period, tout court."

Comradely 
John

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, 09:43 , <sartesian@...> wrote:
"You cannot call another list participant a murderer, a misogynist, a traitor or an imperialist on this list"

" These are now junior partners in a world wide Brown "Populist" alliance. Whether they care to recognize it or not. It is just that some don't want to look too closely over their Right shoulder at their new Brown comrades, say in the shape of the CPRF-United Russia-The Duginist "Eurasianist" Russian Far Right, for just one prime example.  They are all on the same side!" 


Re: solidarity with the Ukrainian resistance!

David Walters
 

that is interesting. I agree with John on his understanding of the threat Russia represents to the people of Ukraine and *specifically* the working masses there. The class struggle under occupation always takes on the issue of worker independence from their native capitalists in the government and the capitalist state itself. But the actual enemy under occupation is clear: the invader. In every situation in the world I'm aware of, the focus is always on getting rid of the occupier. It was in Poland, France and all of Europe during WWII. Why would it be any different today in Ukraine? Workers *should* organize in their own  formations (political and military) where possible. Struggling for political independence is especially hard but it can occur, even if in limited format. In Ukraine, this means for the very small number of working class militants means joining the Territorial Guard, which allows, it seems, some political space to do this. Again, the reason: to beat back the Imperialist occupier that is intent on ending Ukraine and it's people as an independent nation. That is why we want to see the working class take the lead in this.

 

Where I disagree with with John is the EU, where he is dead wrong, IMO. The EU is the method by which the capitalists are trying to defend their ownership of property and roll back the gains made by working people on a national basis throughout Europe. IT is a thoroughly reactionary organization of Imperialism that all working class organizations should fight. IMO, it represents a far greater threat than NATO does which, while actually more than a military alliance (it has all sorts of economic and political policies as well), doesn't really effect everyday life the way the EU does with it's "regionalization" and "fiscalization" policies; the rolling back of labor rights across the board. Like many socialists in the UK, I supported Brexit and would oppose, if I were British, re-entry into the EU.

[John and I had a public debate on this issue in Berkeley several years ago with two other participants taking pro- and anti-Brexit positions].

 

I do agree with John that this is up to the working class of Ukraine to decide, for or against.

David


Re: Moderators’ Statement

Walter Lippmann
 

This is reasonable. I keep my CubaNews list moderated for

pretty much the same reasons. I'm not joined in the debates

since my return to Marxmail. Not sure to what degree I will 

since the vibes on this list are pretty much as they used to

be under Louis, without the snark factor. I'm based here in

Los Angeles, California. I appreciate the comments which

Anthony Boynton made on the recent Colombian election.

I'm thrilled by the results, but know the struggle has only

just begun. It's a pretty sign impressive that Columbia's 

Trumpista conceded right away.

 

For those who don't know me, I'm a former (1962-1988)

member of the SWP, its youth group and two offshoots,

and unaffiliated since then. My project is CubaNews, an

online service with a Cuba-centric focus, consisting of a

lot of English translations from the Cuban media as well

as other Cuba-related material from a rather wide range

of sources. Anyone with a great interest in Cuba may 

wish to subscribe. This is an invitation to everyone here.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Walter Lippmann

https://groups.io/g/cubanews/


Re: Jacobinism and the labour theory of value | Paul Cockshott | Midwestern Marx

Charlie
 

M. M. asks, "Where does the MONETARY EQUIVALENT OF LABOR come from?" Cockshott defined it: "...Marxist economists term the Monetary Equivalent of Labour Time. This parameter can be fixed by looking at the total monetary value of output in an economy versus the total labour used." That is, the total monetary value is the sum of final prices. The total labor used is, for Cockshott, the total hours put in.


Re: Ukrainian communists pictured alive but face pressure to admit to trumped-up charges | Steve Sweeney | The Morning Star

sartesian@...
 

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 06:44 PM, Mark Baugher wrote:
I think your disagreement is first and foremost with Marx and Engels as well as most traditions that emanate from their work. It's true that Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky often looked at national struggles in the context of the transition to capitalism from feudal forms, just as they viewed the formation of a nation state as a prerequisite to socialism, but they went beyond this and saw the right to speak your language, perform cultural practices and enjoy self government as a prerequisite to class solidarity. That is part of a tradition that stretches from Marx and Engels, to Lenin and Trotsky, to CLR James and Black nationalism. Your arguments are unmoored from that tradition.
I could parse every one your statements, but in the end it all comes down to the appeal above, and that is your appeal to authority.  You provide not a shred of concrete analysis of the situation in Ukraine, the "macro" forces propelling this conflict, and ignore completely the critical issue which, since 1848 has been the independent program of the working class for social revolution.

We get none of that.  We get the appeal to "tradition" of the "fathers" without any investigation of historical circumstances then and now, to see where parallels, congruences exist, and where such circumstances diverge.

Not for nothing did Marx write that the tradition of all dead generations weighs like an Alp on the brains of the living.

Should we discuss the positions of those fathers?

Engels?  Are we to moor ourselves to the tradition that has Engels endorsing the US war on behalf of its slaveholders against Mexico?  Should we moor ourselves to the tradition of Engels in 1848 who applauded the French conquest of Algeria calling it "an important and fortunate fact for the progress of civilization"?  Or should we moor ourselves to the position he took 9 years later, denouncing that conquest?  Or the position he wanted Marx and the IWMA to take, uncritically endorsing Germany in the Franco-Prussian war as it would quicken the consolidation of the German working class?  Fortunately the communards didn't give a rat's ass about Engels' arguments.

Lenin?  Should we moor ourselves to the position that argued revolutionary defeatism, that  warned against dissipating the programmatic independence of the proletariat within the eruption of "national liberation" in the colonies?  Or do we moor ourselves in the tradition of the 3rd Intl, which with the approval of Lenin and Trotsky puts forth the  Joffe-Sun manifesto declaring communism unsuited for China, and vice-versa, and uncritically support Sun and order the young communist party to adhere to the discipline of the GMT?

CLR James?  That tradition?  Would it be the tradition of the Johnson Forest Tendency?  The Third Camp?  of Pan-Africanism and Nkrumaisim?  Which tradition do you want? 

How many ghosts do you need to make the empty house feel like home? 


Re: solidarity with the Ukrainian resistance!

John Reimann
 

Bobby MacVeety counterposes "the idea of a borderless earth with free movement of the united workers" to the struggle for national rights and the right to self determination. But we have to look at the matter concretely. Putin, whose threat from fascism is greater than any other head of state, has whipped up chauvinism in Russia, including within the working class. On this basis, he is trying to spread a renewed Russian empire. That is what his invasion is all about. The free movement of a united working class is only possible if the working class of the dominant imperialist nation supports the rights of the oppressed nation. That includes the right to speak what language they like, study history in the way they want, etc. Of course, all of this will be influenced by the domestic capitalist class, but it exists nevertheless. Ignoring this is the same as calling for working class unity of white and black workers in the US while the white workers ignore, the racial oppression of all black people, workers or not. It is similar to the call of Labour Zionists for working class unity in the old Palestine Mandate when Jewish workers went on strike. And all the while they ignored the oppression of the Arab workers and peasants. We will never get even close to the free movement of all workers on this basis.

Sartesian asks about the different forms of the class struggle under the condition of the invasion, and specifically the position on Ukraine joining NATO and the EU. Whether Ukraine wants to join either of those unions is up to the people of Ukraine. As far as NATO, it is purely a military alliance and I think socialists should oppose its very existence. The EU is slightly different. As I see it, its formation represented an attempt to overcome some of the inherent contradictions of capitalism itself, a futile endeavor if there ever was one, and I think we probably should have opposed it at that time. However, the calls for leaving the EU today - of which Brexit is the foremost example - are entirely nationalist and reactionary. It's a bit like the issue of "free trade" - I think socialists can neither support free trade nor the alternative - tariffs.

But in Ukraine today, Social Movement has opposed the latest neoliberal laws which attack workers rights. Among other things, they explain that these laws will actually hinder the effort against the imperialist invaders. In that sense, the class struggle is explained somewhat differently. It is explained by the fact that leaving the capitalist class to its own devices weakens the struggle against the imperialist invader. In a way, it is a hint of the theory of permanent revolution - that the struggle against imperialism and the struggle against capitalism itself are interlinked.

John Reimann

--
“Science and socialism go hand-in-hand.” Felicity Dowling
Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook


Re: Ukrainian communists pictured alive but face pressure to admit to trumped-up charges | Steve Sweeney | The Morning Star

Mark Baugher
 

On Jun 22, 2022, at 1:23 PM, sartesian@... wrote:

This struggle has nothing to do with "self-determination" and everything to do with intra-capitalist conflict.
So you take no position if the countries are capitalist? Is that what Marx did in wars?

One would hardly know from reading the "pro self-determinationists" that Ukraine is a capitalist country with its own oligarchs, its own finance capitalists, its own adherence to "imperialism" through IMF and EU restructuring programs.
When Marx wrote, "An international movement of the proletariat is possible only among independent nations", what do you think he meant?


And this same lack of astute observation informs the self-determinationists defending the right of the "rebels to obtain arms from any source" since its not rebels obtaining weapons, its the capitalist government of Ukraine.
Where else would they get arms to fight against a much larger invading army? The alternative is for Ukrainians to let their country be ravaged. What kind of socialist would ask them to do that?


For there to be a dispute between Lenin and Luxemburg on this issue, the partisans of each would need to find a situation that conforms to the ones they were grappling with 105 years ago. Ukraine does not.

This list is called "marxmail" and as Marx wrote "So long as Poland is partitioned and subjugated, therefore, neither a strong socialist party can develop in the country itself, nor can there arise real international intercourse between the proletarian parties in Germany, etc, with other than émigré Poles."

It feels true to substitute "Ukraine" for "Poland" and "Ukrainians" for "Poles" in the above. Don't you agree?


It does resemble more that invasion of Belgium by Germany in either/both World Wars. And calling for the defense of one capitalist country from the depredations of another capitalist country when the source of that conflict is the capitalist mode of production that dominates the globe is worse than a fool's errand, it's a statement of bankruptcy.
I think your disagreement is first and foremost with Marx and Engels as well as most traditions that emanate from their work. It's true that Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky often looked at national struggles in the context of the transition to capitalism from feudal forms, just as they viewed the formation of a nation state as a prerequisite to socialism, but they went beyond this and saw the right to speak your language, perform cultural practices and enjoy self government as a prerequisite to class solidarity. That is part of a tradition that stretches from Marx and Engels, to Lenin and Trotsky, to CLR James and Black nationalism. Your arguments are unmoored from that tradition.


Mark



Re: Counterpunch: Slavoj Zizek Does His Christopher Hitchens Impression

sartesian@...
 

"You cannot call another list participant a murderer, a misogynist, a traitor or an imperialist on this list"

" These are now junior partners in a world wide Brown "Populist" alliance. Whether they care to recognize it or not. It is just that some don't want to look too closely over their Right shoulder at their new Brown comrades, say in the shape of the CPRF-United Russia-The Duginist "Eurasianist" Russian Far Right, for just one prime example.  They are all on the same side!" 


Re: Counterpunch: Slavoj Zizek Does His Christopher Hitchens Impression

John Edmundson
 

Funny how this "you're a traitor if you disagree with me" post appeared so soon after the moderator's message saying not to call each other traitors.

Comradely,
John

On Thu, 23 Jun 2022, 08:56 , <sartesian@...> wrote:
Baloney.  Identifying Ukraine as a capitalist state, part of an imperial network with its allegiance to the IMF, irrevocably hostile to the working class, while at the same time tracing the roots of the conflict to capitalism's overproduction and declining profits (prior to the war) particularly in the energy industries, and tagging Russia as a key participant in this capitalist death spiral, does not make one a supporter of a Red Brown alliance.

Mayer thinks he's holding a lens to those who advocate political independence when he says that makes them partners in the far right Brown alliance.  Actually he's holding up a mirror given his "objective" "subjective" popular front with the Zelensky government, the EU, and NATO.

Mayer taunts "pacifists" to address their pleas to Biden, because Biden will sell out Ukraine.  No shit Sherlock, so why aren't you breaking with Zelensky government?  Why on a Marxist discussion list is there no discussion of capitalism in Ukraine?  Why are Marxists urging the distribution of weapons to a capitalist  government?   

Sounds to me like the ones who addressed their pleas to Biden are  those advocating NATO weapons  and troops.  Yes troops,  Get real, heavy weapons don't go anywhere without advisors and instructors. 

Sure thing, inviting NATO weapons into the conflict is the way to socialism.  Like Allende inviting Pinochet to take the position as army chief of staff was the path to democracy in Chile.. Nach NATO, uns!  

I agree with one thing.  Ukraine is a turning point.  While you were out, World War 3 called. 

Excuse my vehemence, but this bullshit about "objectively allying with the Brown" is right out of the Stalinist playbook.

Defeat of all government parties to this conflict is the only alternative to this iteration of war without end, amen.  Such an independent international movement of workers isn't in the cards?  TINA?  Suit yourself.  Please refrain from smearing those who do think it's possible with your red-brown baloney.


Re: Counterpunch: Slavoj Zizek Does His Christopher Hitchens Impression

sartesian@...
 

Baloney.  Identifying Ukraine as a capitalist state, part of an imperial network with its allegiance to the IMF, irrevocably hostile to the working class, while at the same time tracing the roots of the conflict to capitalism's overproduction and declining profits (prior to the war) particularly in the energy industries, and tagging Russia as a key participant in this capitalist death spiral, does not make one a supporter of a Red Brown alliance.

Mayer thinks he's holding a lens to those who advocate political independence when he says that makes them partners in the far right Brown alliance.  Actually he's holding up a mirror given his "objective" "subjective" popular front with the Zelensky government, the EU, and NATO.

Mayer taunts "pacifists" to address their pleas to Biden, because Biden will sell out Ukraine.  No shit Sherlock, so why aren't you breaking with Zelensky government?  Why on a Marxist discussion list is there no discussion of capitalism in Ukraine?  Why are Marxists urging the distribution of weapons to a capitalist  government?   

Sounds to me like the ones who addressed their pleas to Biden are  those advocating NATO weapons  and troops.  Yes troops,  Get real, heavy weapons don't go anywhere without advisors and instructors. 

Sure thing, inviting NATO weapons into the conflict is the way to socialism.  Like Allende inviting Pinochet to take the position as army chief of staff was the path to democracy in Chile.. Nach NATO, uns!  

I agree with one thing.  Ukraine is a turning point.  While you were out, World War 3 called. 

Excuse my vehemence, but this bullshit about "objectively allying with the Brown" is right out of the Stalinist playbook.

Defeat of all government parties to this conflict is the only alternative to this iteration of war without end, amen.  Such an independent international movement of workers isn't in the cards?  TINA?  Suit yourself.  Please refrain from smearing those who do think it's possible with your red-brown baloney.

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