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Re: Ukraine War: Joint Statement of Socialist Tendency (Russia) and RCIT

Bobby MacVeety
 

Down with warmongers!


On Jun 4, 2022, at 10:00 AM, Matt Kelly <a.marxist@...> wrote:

You say:

* Defend the Ukraine! Defeat Russian imperialism! International popular solidarity with the Ukrainian national resistance – independent of any imperialist influence!
 
* Down with all imperialist powers – NATO and EU as well as Russia! In all conflicts between these powers, revolutionaries oppose both camps!

I get that you want to defend Ukraine against Russian imperialist aggression, but how do you separate that out practically, on the ground, from the support that the EU and NATO imperialists are giving Ukraine? What does "independent of any imperialist influence!" mean on the battlefield? Does that mean you only support units using 'Ukrainian' weapons? If Ukraine is subject to aggression, why can't they use any weapons at their disposal, including those supplied by other imperialist powers?

For me, the war in Ukraine has become a war of inter-imperialist rivalry and Ukraine a non-innocent pawn, so to call for defence of Ukraine becomes a call to support the EU and NATO.

Matt.


Re: Ukraine War: Joint Statement of Socialist Tendency (Russia) and RCIT

Matt Kelly
 

You say:

* Defend the Ukraine! Defeat Russian imperialism! International popular solidarity with the Ukrainian national resistance – independent of any imperialist influence!
 
* Down with all imperialist powers – NATO and EU as well as Russia! In all conflicts between these powers, revolutionaries oppose both camps!

I get that you want to defend Ukraine against Russian imperialist aggression, but how do you separate that out practically, on the ground, from the support that the EU and NATO imperialists are giving Ukraine? What does "independent of any imperialist influence!" mean on the battlefield? Does that mean you only support units using 'Ukrainian' weapons? If Ukraine is subject to aggression, why can't they use any weapons at their disposal, including those supplied by other imperialist powers?

For me, the war in Ukraine has become a war of inter-imperialist rivalry and Ukraine a non-innocent pawn, so to call for defence of Ukraine becomes a call to support the EU and NATO.

Matt.


Re: What Marxmail has always been

hari kumar
 

There will be a chorus no doubt - and I willingly join that - to agree with you Julia.
FWIW I am 'only' a non-productive worker (by what I understand Marx to say) - no doubt the epithet will be thrown as petit-b.

The recent discussions -  regrettably including one of the moderators - appear to have descended into a Monty-Pythonesque rivalry trumping rational discussions. (See: sketch where people compete with each other as to who had the worst conditions during their upbringing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdlkunflRs ). 

Hari Kumar


Re: What Marxmail has always been

Bobby MacVeety
 

Thanks for this, please chime in more often 


On Jun 3, 2022, at 8:40 PM, julia berkowitz <Juliaberkowitz14@...> wrote:

Oh for fuck’s sake, enough already. As one of the few working class women on this list, i am so tired of seeing all of the posturing and the endless presenting of personal legitimacy credentials, as well as the put downs and guilt tripping and snark that substitute for actual political discourse. I’m even less impressed now that I’ve learned who the authentic workers really are here, than I was weeks ago, when it was clear most had forgotten why ostensible marxists oppose their own bourgeoisie in times of war: to mobilize their working classes for socialist revolution, not to beg their bosses’ representatives for more armaments for more fratricidal bloodletting.


The Silence of the Doves | James W. Carden | American Committee for US-Russia Accord

Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo
 


A Summit Against Democracy

Charles Keener
 

Biden's exclusion of Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela is yet another example of his global gift for losing friends and alienating people.

Charles



The summit convening in Los Angeles next week is yet another proof of the authoritarian and anti-democratic character of the elites that rule the United States. The exclusion of Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela from the meeting from the outset confirms this. This is an extremely serious fact, which leads to other very serious exclusions as well. The United States has disregarded the consensus of non-exclusion that had been reached, when Cuba had already participated in the VII and VIII versions of the Summit of the Americas in Panama and Lima after a general clamor of the governments and peoples of the region. This means that Washington does not understand, or does not want to realize, that the era of neo-liberal hegemony, when it could make and break countries and governments as it pleased, is over. Nor can it stand the fact that the peoples’ rejection of neo-liberalism and a clear trend towards the election of progressive governments, that are now present in Mexico, Bolivia, Honduras, Peru, Argentina, Chile and knocking on the door in Colombia with Petro, winning the first round, and in Brazil with Lula, whom all the poll have already declared him as the absolute winner, are once again gaining strength -as in the late 1990s and late 2000s- but now with more depth.  Of course, to this must be added Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua and the 6 brave Eastern Caribbean States that are part of ALBA, all of which share many ideas and foreign policy projections with the above mentioned and are now displaying a clear and accurate view of the current world at the IX ALBA Summit.

 Ángel Guerra Cabrera


Latest Jobs Report Shames the Inflation Hawks | Robert Kuttner | The American Prospect

Kevin Lindemann and Cathy Campo
 


Ukraine War: Joint Statement of Socialist Tendency (Russia) and RCIT

RKOB
 

An important joint statement between the Socialist Tendency (Russia) and the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency (RCIT).

* * * * *

Defend the Ukrainian People against Putin’s Invasion! Down with Russian and NATO Imperialism!

Joint Statement of the Socialist Tendency (Russia) and the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency (RCIT), 4 June 2022

https://www.thecommunists.net/rcit/joint-statement-with-ct-russia-on-ukraine-war-4-6-2022/

* * * * *

Все на защиту украинского народа от вторжения Путина! Долой российский и натовский империализм!

Совместное заявление Социалистической тенденции (Россия) и Революционной Коммунистической Интернациональной Тенденции (РКИТ), 4 июня 2022 года

https://www.thecommunists.net/rcit/joint-statement-with-ct-russia-on-ukraine-war-4-6-2022/#anker_1

You will find more translations of our joint statement on this page in the coming days.


Re: What Marxmail has always been

Anthony Boynton
 

Thank you Julia!

On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 7:40 PM julia berkowitz <Juliaberkowitz14@...> wrote:
Oh for fuck’s sake, enough already. As one of the few working class women on this list, i am so tired of seeing all of the posturing and the endless presenting of personal legitimacy credentials, as well as the put downs and guilt tripping and snark that substitute for actual political discourse. I’m even less impressed now that I’ve learned who the authentic workers really are here, than I was weeks ago, when it was clear most had forgotten why ostensible marxists oppose their own bourgeoisie in times of war: to mobilize their working classes for socialist revolution, not to beg their bosses’ representatives for more armaments for more fratricidal bloodletting.


Jean-Luc Mélenchon Has Shown How to Build a Radical, Broad Coalition

Charles Keener
 

Melenchon and the left coalition in France are one bright spot in a rather bleak overall global landscape.

Charles



Most of the last decade’s left-populist insurgents failed to create lasting alternatives to neoliberalized social democracy. But Jean-Luc Mélenchon’s France Insoumise bucked the trend — and did it through years of work building real, popular roots.

Julian-Nicolas Calfuquir is national executive secretary of the Parti de Gauche's Youth Network and international coordinator at Les Jeunes Insoumis·es.


Re: Max Parry's "14,000" deception

Charlie
 

Six wrongs don't make a right. ;)


Re: What Marxmail has always been

julia berkowitz
 

Oh for fuck’s sake, enough already. As one of the few working class women on this list, i am so tired of seeing all of the posturing and the endless presenting of personal legitimacy credentials, as well as the put downs and guilt tripping and snark that substitute for actual political discourse. I’m even less impressed now that I’ve learned who the authentic workers really are here, than I was weeks ago, when it was clear most had forgotten why ostensible marxists oppose their own bourgeoisie in times of war: to mobilize their working classes for socialist revolution, not to beg their bosses’ representatives for more armaments for more fratricidal bloodletting.


Two intersectional discussions of attacks on reproductive rights and on the transgender community

Charles Keener
 

These and other recent pieces I have seen explore the common ground of two essential struggles for bodily autonomy.

Charles


Attacks on Trans Rights and Abortion Rights Are “Bound Together” (truthout.org)


Re: Max Parry's "14,000" deception

Dave Lindorff
 

The US media, from the beginning of this crisis, when Russian troops and weapons began piling up along the border with Ukraine, and even more after the invasion began, have been sitting that 14,000 figure calling it Ukrainians killed by invading Russians and separatist fighters.  Also " wrong-wrong-wrong."  Most of my liberal friends think that Russia has been slaughtering Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine since 2014.  That is courtesy our pro-war media. They also refer to Russia's "invasion' and "conquest" of Crimea.  Again not honest. If it was an invasion it was a bloodless one. Truth is that there were 20,000 Russian troops based in Crimea under a treaty with the newly independent Ukraine. They were part of the agreement to have Russia lease the Navy base at Sevastopol.  Lke it or not, there was a referendum held in Crimea on separating from Ukraine and returning to Russia, which passed by some 90%. No surprise becase the place is almost that percentage ethnic Russian, and i"m sure these days they are happy to be part of Russia and not Ukraine. 

Dave
.



On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 7:30 PM Charlie <charles1848@...> wrote:
MAX PARRY: "For what the late Edward S. Herman called the 'cruise missile Left,' the 14,000 ethnic Russians killed in Donbass by the Ukrainian army since 2014 are 'unworthy victims,' as Herman and Noam Chomsky defined the notion in Manufacturing Consent."
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/04/22/the-synthetic-left-joins-the-corporate-right-in-getting-the-ukraine-war-wrong/

It's a great factoid if you support the Russian war against Ukraine. But is it true? Parry provides no citation and no evidence. It turns out the statement is false:

UNITED NATIONS INVESTIGATORS: "OHCHR estimates the total ... from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be ... 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian forces, and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups."
https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf

That is, most of the deaths, about 11,000 during seven and a half years of war, were combatants on both sides. There were about 3,500 civilian deaths in the midst of the war. If you are a combatant, you know your life is on the line; if you are a civilian, you do what you can to avoid the war. But Mr. Parry twists the carnage, horrific enough in its reality, to falsehood. He ignores the distinction between combatant and civilian deaths, he says all who died were "ethnic Russians," and he says the Ukrainian army did all the killing – wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Charles Andrews



Max Parry's "14,000" deception

Charlie
 

MAX PARRY: "For what the late Edward S. Herman called the 'cruise missile Left,' the 14,000 ethnic Russians killed in Donbass by the Ukrainian army since 2014 are 'unworthy victims,' as Herman and Noam Chomsky defined the notion in Manufacturing Consent."
https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/04/22/the-synthetic-left-joins-the-corporate-right-in-getting-the-ukraine-war-wrong/

It's a great factoid if you support the Russian war against Ukraine. But is it true? Parry provides no citation and no evidence. It turns out the statement is false:

UNITED NATIONS INVESTIGATORS: "OHCHR estimates the total ... from 14 April 2014 to 31 December 2021 to be ... 14,200-14,400 killed (at least 3,404 civilians, estimated 4,400 Ukrainian forces, and estimated 6,500 members of armed groups."
https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-related%20civilian%20casualties%20as%20of%2031%20December%202021%20%28rev%2027%20January%202022%29%20corr%20EN_0.pdf

That is, most of the deaths, about 11,000 during seven and a half years of war, were combatants on both sides. There were about 3,500 civilian deaths in the midst of the war. If you are a combatant, you know your life is on the line; if you are a civilian, you do what you can to avoid the war. But Mr. Parry twists the carnage, horrific enough in its reality, to falsehood. He ignores the distinction between combatant and civilian deaths, he says all who died were "ethnic Russians," and he says the Ukrainian army did all the killing – wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Charles Andrews



A second front is open against Ukraine- For example....

Gibbons Brian
 

.... Yuliia Kulchytska, 41, was at the train station in Kramatorsk, Ukraine, on April 8 to see off her daughter’s boyfriend, who was headed to Kyiv, when the station came under a Russian missile strike.

https://whowhatwhy.org/ukraine-2/attacked-from-the-sky-a-story-from-the-kramatorsk-bombing/

Brian Gibbons


A second front is open against Ukraine

Gibbons Brian
 

"...war creates public health crises... the costs of war... do not end when one side or the other declares victory."

Dr. Barry Levy, a past president of the American Public Health Association, an adjunct professor of public health at Tufts University School of Medicine, and author of From Horror to Hope: Recognizing and Preventing the Health Impacts of War.

Podcast 
https://whowhatwhy.org/podcast/ukraines-second-front-disease-famine-toxic-air/

Brian Gibbons


Re: What Marxmail has always been

Jeffrey Masko <j.alan.masko@...>
 

edit, "You assume you know about me, but you don't."

On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 4:15 PM Jeffrey Masko via groups.io <j.alan.masko=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Yeah, I know about Local 2, I worked for them.  You assume you know about me, but I don't. I am not the only working class person that feels this way and you can deny that this list should look at issues that I've raised about who gets to write what in what manner and so on, or ignore the assumption that to talk politely and nicely with each other is a middle-class trait. You don't have to insult anyone to be working-class (as we can see from this list) but we do call bullshit quite often.

It sounds like we have a lot of history in common, Anthony, but I've never pointed myself out and won't compare history to see who is the most "working class." I will say one thing, I was blacklisted after helping start the graduate student union drive at Penn State 20012-2016 and have never worked as a full "professor.," nor really full time in my adult life, does that make you happy?  Seems I get a lot of personal attacks here for "being a big grouch" and not going along with the flow.

If you think tossing me from the list is going to help it out and get the bad seed out, by all means. Seems like this topic is off-limits huh?



Re: What Marxmail has always been

Jeffrey Masko <j.alan.masko@...>
 

Yeah, I know about Local 2, I worked for them.  You assume you know about me, but I don't. I am not the only working class person that feels this way and you can deny that this list should look at issues that I've raised about who gets to write what in what manner and so on, or ignore the assumption that to talk politely and nicely with each other is a middle-class trait. You don't have to insult anyone to be working-class (as we can see from this list) but we do call bullshit quite often.

It sounds like we have a lot of history in common, Anthony, but I've never pointed myself out and won't compare history to see who is the most "working class." I will say one thing, I was blacklisted after helping start the graduate student union drive at Penn State 20012-2016 and have never worked as a full "professor.," nor really full time in my adult life, does that make you happy?  Seems I get a lot of personal attacks here for "being a big grouch" and not going along with the flow.

If you think tossing me from the list is going to help it out and get the bad seed out, by all means. Seems like this topic is off-limits huh?



Re: What Marxmail has always been

Jeffrey Masko <j.alan.masko@...>
 

This list should not be the "property" of anyone, but should be considered in the common, so outside of threats, "not playing nicely with others" and having "proper manners" is not a reason to be singled out.

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