Date   
Re: ATS-V5 Picture

WA0ITP
 

Hold the fone, just found an earlier(first?) version in an earlier email attachment, here 'tis.




    
    
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 1/8/2020 5:23 PM, WA0ITP wrote:

Somehow I've missed seeing the picture of this little guy. I dont see it in the photos section, can anyone point me to it?  TIA
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 12/30/2019 9:15 AM, simon_hotchin via Groups.Io wrote:
Looks awesome to me.  If there is a list, count me in.

Simon, KK6ODM


Re: ATS-V5 Picture

WA0ITP
 

Somehow I've missed seeing the picture of this little guy. I dont dee it in the photos section, can anyone point me to it?  TIA
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 12/30/2019 9:15 AM, simon_hotchin via Groups.Io wrote:

Looks awesome to me.  If there is a list, count me in.

Simon, KK6ODM

Re: Compander AGC

Joe Street
 

Hi Brian

Your circuit is very clever and elegant in its simplicity using the current through the series diodes to modulate the on state resistance (a voltage divider essentially).  However the peak detector rectifies the audio waveform in order to drive the level control diodes and therefore is still subject to the time delay needed to integrate several cycles of the audio signal (several milliseconds) to generate the control voltage for the system.  I wish you could do another demonstration video but this time using CW.  This will show that in between words or maybe even characters (depending on the recovery time of the detector) the level control signal will change and there will be a disturbing pop or click on the next strong CW signal (especially annoying with headphone use).  If the peak detector was rectifying RF or IF those 3 to 5 cycles necessary to settle the drive signal are RF cycles and therefore happen so fast (microseconds) that the ear is not bombarded during the transition.  This is the real problem of any audio derived AGC and the reason I developed the technique I described earlier using the PIC micro which worked but ended up being rather complex.

Joe


On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:59 AM Brien Pepperdine <brianpepperdine@...> wrote:

I realise (in theory) that what is being discussed and wanted is internal  AGC /  limiting kind of stuff, but for those interested, or who might want to incorporate into a somewhat larger 'kit'.. this might be of interest. For interest's sake or for practical application.

FWIW - from Alan Wolke W2AEW, who knows a few things. From there.. to eternity ( I guess ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUii_pDQxg8

Brian


Re: Compander AGC

Brien Pepperdine
 

I realise (in theory) that what is being discussed and wanted is internal  AGC /  limiting kind of stuff, but for those interested, or who might want to incorporate into a somewhat larger 'kit'.. this might be of interest. For interest's sake or for practical application.

FWIW - from Alan Wolke W2AEW, who knows a few things. From there.. to eternity ( I guess ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUii_pDQxg8

Brian

---------- Original Message ----------
From: dl2arl@...
Date: January 3, 2020 at 7:57 PM

Hello Steven, Hello Group,
this posting is GREAT NEWS! But please be aware that for a kit to fit them all out there you might imperatively need some impedance setting device to fit for the headphone used and also for the desired AGC Kick-In Point to acommodate loud or quiet environements . There are many types of headphones out there and it is not said that the expensive ones are better, but they differ very much in what their impedance is concerned. So adapting the AGC for one specific headset will inevitably lead to malfunction with another one having an impedance ten-fold bigger or smaller.

These are only details! I think the sourcing of this AGC chip is a big step forward and rigs made for rough portable  use absolutely need one. They need one so desperately, that I seriously think of retro-fitting some of my MTR and ATS rigs with such an AGC.

On the other hand, I am happy to own one fabulous Rig, the SST, that has one of the simplest and most genial audio solution that I can think of, No! I do not ignore the difference between a limiter (that is what the SST has) and a full grown-up AGC, but I try to humbly express my enthusiasm for the simple and efficient solution the SST has. I also do not ignore the difference between an AGC solution working in the audio frequency stage (much more prone to "plopping") and one looping back as far as the Intermediate Frequency or even the front end. But let us keep it simple.

Wish you all a Happy New Year!
73 de Razvan DL2ARL


 

Re: Compander AGC

Joe Street
 

Hey Razvan

I agree with your comments.  The AGC subject is always a good one and the configuration of it for different situations is really nice if the equipment allows you that level of control, otherwise it might be better riding the gain control by hand!   In the absence of that, on a simple CW rig a limiter followed by a hypermite type filter is a very good alternative.  The filter removes the nasty harmonics from the limiter and the result is a pleasing audio even when the signal is limited.

Joe

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:57 PM <dl2arl@...> wrote:
Hello Steven, Hello Group,
this posting is GREAT NEWS! But please be aware that for a kit to fit them all out there you might imperatively need some impedance setting device to fit for the headphone used and also for the desired AGC Kick-In Point to acommodate loud or quiet environements . There are many types of headphones out there and it is not said that the expensive ones are better, but they differ very much in what their impedance is concerned. So adapting the AGC for one specific headset will inevitably lead to malfunction with another one having an impedance ten-fold bigger or smaller.

These are only details! I think the sourcing of this AGC chip is a big step forward and rigs made for rough portable  use absolutely need one. They need one so desperately, that I seriously think of retro-fitting some of my MTR and ATS rigs with such an AGC.

On the other hand, I am happy to own one fabulous Rig, the SST, that has one of the simplest and most genial audio solution that I can think of, No! I do not ignore the difference between a limiter (that is what the SST has) and a full grown-up AGC, but I try to humbly express my enthusiasm for the simple and efficient solution the SST has. I also do not ignore the difference between an AGC solution working in the audio frequency stage (much more prone to "plopping") and one looping back as far as the Intermediate Frequency or even the front end. But let us keep it simple.

Wish you all a Happy New Year!
73 de Razvan DL2ARL

Re: Compander AGC

steve_wg0at
 
Edited

Still have my SST ...it's one of my favorite mono band SOTA rigs
...just love the sound of it (AGC?) and it's sharp xtal filter!
Great field OPs radio! ...73, Steve/wGOAT

Re: Compander AGC

Reed White
 

Earphones have different sensitivities, so if using with an AGC, it would be good to have a tiny screw-adjusted pot on the circuit board to match the earphones.

... Reed K7FLY

--
Reed White, reed@..., 719-695-0880

Re: Compander AGC

dl2arl@...
 

Hello Steven, Hello Group,
this posting is GREAT NEWS! But please be aware that for a kit to fit them all out there you might imperatively need some impedance setting device to fit for the headphone used and also for the desired AGC Kick-In Point to acommodate loud or quiet environements . There are many types of headphones out there and it is not said that the expensive ones are better, but they differ very much in what their impedance is concerned. So adapting the AGC for one specific headset will inevitably lead to malfunction with another one having an impedance ten-fold bigger or smaller.

These are only details! I think the sourcing of this AGC chip is a big step forward and rigs made for rough portable  use absolutely need one. They need one so desperately, that I seriously think of retro-fitting some of my MTR and ATS rigs with such an AGC.

On the other hand, I am happy to own one fabulous Rig, the SST, that has one of the simplest and most genial audio solution that I can think of, No! I do not ignore the difference between a limiter (that is what the SST has) and a full grown-up AGC, but I try to humbly express my enthusiasm for the simple and efficient solution the SST has. I also do not ignore the difference between an AGC solution working in the audio frequency stage (much more prone to "plopping") and one looping back as far as the Intermediate Frequency or even the front end. But let us keep it simple.

Wish you all a Happy New Year!
73 de Razvan DL2ARL

Re: BlinkySWR progress

David Perry <bumbledp@...>
 

"If we source all the parts, the kit price will go up, but at the end of the day the total price will be much lower than if one has to source the parts himself. That is the main motivation to try to come up with something more complicated than the bare bones board."


Good enough reason to go with the biggest kit you can reasonably make.  Even 20 currency units is reasonable I think and that's at your high end.

David G4YVM 

Re: BlinkySWR progress

Vojtech Bubnik
 

I had a discussion with Dan OK1HRA (owner of  https://remoteqth.com/ by the way) yesterday, who is doing the PCB artwork. I brought the prototypes of tuners and the parts for the various tuner configurations to shuffle them around our current board prototype to get an idea of physical dimensions and layout. We will most likely build an initial run of 50 pieces of the bare bore board (RF input, RF output, no switches, no ATU), and 50 pieces of some form of ATU, likely the variant 2 (ferrite UNUN) with the option to provide your coil and polyvaricon if you want to populate it as a resonant tuner.

I would go with just the bare bones board if it was not for the price of shipping and the multiple sources that the parts need to be shipped from (and paid for the shipping) to source all parts for a full tuner. If we source all the parts, the kit price will go up, but at the end of the day the total price will be much lower than if one has to source the parts himself. That is the main motivation to try to come up with something more complicated than the bare bones board.

Let's see what Dan comes up with.

73, Vojtech OK1IAK

Re: BlinkySWR progress

David Perry <bumbledp@...>
 

Option 1 is fine but I'd probably like option 2.  I'll buy whichever option because it sounds good.

David G4YVM 

Re: Compander AGC

WA0ITP
 

Awesome news!! Great design feature imho.
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 12/30/2019 10:33 PM, Steven Weber wrote:

Well, it seems I can make this compander chip do the job after all. I increased the gain up stream and put a 220 ohm resistor in series with the headphones. The AGC kicks in at about 50 uV, a S9 signal. The 220 ohm resistor limits the volume to a reasonable level.

 

So, it looks like I can eliminate the volume control all together and the LM386 amp.

 

Steve KD1JV

 

 


Re: BlinkySWR progress

k5dez@...
 

For sure, Option 1 for me. Sounds perfect.
Tim - K5DEZ

Re: BlinkySWR progress

Greg DL3GJ
 

Hi Vojtech, I can just second what Warren wrote - the option one would give the most to existing solutions. ...of course all-inclusive replacement sounds also interesting - but as the design is provided, one can think about sourcing it on its own and homebrewing...

Vy 73 Greg DL3GJ

Re: BlinkySWR progress

Warren vk3byd
 

Hi Vojtech,
The first option, simple vswr/power would allow me to use it with any of my current atu/rig combinations. Like most these units only have a resistive bridge for vswr, so would be nice to have “real numbers” not just a dim led.
As for the other two personally I would likely go for option three, as it more closely reflects how I use the gear today.

Just a couple of design suggestions / questions,
Will all designs come with a “Bridge in/out” switch on the pcb?
Regarding connectors, I appreciate the SMA has some advantages over the BNC, but as a compromise can I suggest a RCA connector instead. It is equally compact, matches what is already used on a number of Steve early rigs, plus a little less fiddly to use in the field with gloved fingers.

Don’t cramp up the ATU aspect of the pcb too much, and possible use over size tracks, so the boards are robust enough to handle a few rebuilds as we experiment ourselves.

Regarding band choices, 80m has been getting a day time run here in VK for the close by (out to 300km) contacts, as there is often no NVIS on 7mhz and up.

I look forward to the chance to purchase,
73, Warren vk3byd

Re: BlinkySWR progress

Vojtech Bubnik
 

The kit design is yet in progress. The price depends on the bells and whistles. These are my gut estimates:

The simplest kit would be likely around $10 plus shipping, that is just a SWR / power meter with two pins input, two pins output and no controls, the board fully populated (maybe just a single aluminum electrolytic through hole capacitor would be soldered by the kit builder).

The second option would likely be $15-$17: SWR / power meter with switch to switch the bridge in / out, and with a ferrite tube and wire for an EFHW UNUN to be wound.

The third option would be likely $20-$25: In addition, there would be an SMA connector, T50-6 toroid and polyvaricon provided with a knob for a tuned EFHW tuner, possibly screw terminals for the antenna poles.

Now what would you prefer? For us, the first variant is the simplest. The most laborious to us is the third variant. A nightmare solution to us is to offer a basic kit with a selection of parts for various tuner configurations.

What would you prefer? I confess I am not quite excited about running a kitting business, so I would either keep it simple or pass it to somebody else if there is a volunteer, and I would rather do the design job. You can always get the 1st variant and homebrew the tuner around it. We plan to design 3D printed enclosures for various tuner configurations.

73, Vojtech OK1IAK

Re: Compander AGC

Steven Weber
 

I looked at ebay and there are all kinds available there, cheap too. Mouser also has one, Adafruit branded.

 

Steve

 

 

With ROHS it is likely that cadmium selenide resistors would face some hurdles, but on the other hand some grad students in my lab recently started a business selling high brightness LED displays based on CdSe quantum dots which are very hazardous to manufacture so who knows.  I'm pretty sure the CdS LDR's will be available surplus for many years to come.  I have a few discontinued VTL5C3's which is what I used for that AGC but I have also rolled my own using a peice of tubing, some black heat shink and a green LED and CdS cell.  They are also handy for optimally remote terminarting beverage antennas. :)

Cheers

Joe

 

On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:10 AM Steven Weber <steve.kd1jv@...> wrote:

Joe,

 

Some time ago I made a similar AGC with LED and LDR, but all analog. The photo resistor controlled the gain of an op amp which also drove the LED. It worked pretty good. I haven’t looked for photo resistors in some time, wonder if they are still available?

 

KD1JV

 

 

Re: BlinkySWR progress

Greg DL3GJ
 

Ahoj,

I am interested. I have an Altoids L tuner built already but find this little device will add some features to my shack.

Happy New Year! Greg DL3GJ

Re: Compander AGC

Joe Street
 

With ROHS it is likely that cadmium selenide resistors would face some hurdles, but on the other hand some grad students in my lab recently started a business selling high brightness LED displays based on CdSe quantum dots which are very hazardous to manufacture so who knows.  I'm pretty sure the CdS LDR's will be available surplus for many years to come.  I have a few discontinued VTL5C3's which is what I used for that AGC but I have also rolled my own using a peice of tubing, some black heat shink and a green LED and CdS cell.  They are also handy for optimally remote terminarting beverage antennas. :)

Cheers
Joe

On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:10 AM Steven Weber <steve.kd1jv@...> wrote:

Joe,

 

Some time ago I made a similar AGC with LED and LDR, but all analog. The photo resistor controlled the gain of an op amp which also drove the LED. It worked pretty good. I haven’t looked for photo resistors in some time, wonder if they are still available?

 

KD1JV


Re: Compander AGC

Steven Weber
 

Joe,

 

Some time ago I made a similar AGC with LED and LDR, but all analog. The photo resistor controlled the gain of an op amp which also drove the LED. It worked pretty good. I haven’t looked for photo resistors in some time, wonder if they are still available?

 

KD1JV

 

 

Hi Steve

AGC is always an interesting topic.  A couple of years ago I set out to build something of an improved audio derived technique.  I ended up using a vactrol with the LED portion driven by PWM via a PIC micro which was sampling a fast averaged signal level.  It required piecewise linear interpolation because the response of the LED/LDR is not linear but I was able to use a table lookup which was quite small and could tailor the AGC threshold, slope, attack and decay to anything I wanted and the great part was that the audio path was a simple resistor divider with zero impact on audio fidelity. The response characteristics of the LDR in the vactrol lend themselves well to the application of audio derived AGC but the technique gets around the typical limitations (ie too slow a response due to the need to integrate several cycles of audio rather than the time needed for several cycles of RF which causes a pop)  Perhaps the idea is more than you are looking for in a simple rig but I just thought I'd mention.

Happy New Year

Joe ve3vxo

 

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 8:22 PM Steven Weber <steve.kd1jv@...> wrote:

UPS came through and dropped off the compander chip this afternoon. For those of you who might be interested, the part number is NCY9100DW2G

 

It works great, but only one little problem. It wants to keep the output level at 2V p-p. That’s about  10X a comfortable level for headphones. It doesn’t like to drive headphones directly, but adding a series resistor cleans up the cross over the distortion.

 

So, one solution would be to just put a big enough series resistor to the headphones to get a 200 mV signal. But it takes a 200 mv p-p input signal before the AGC action kicks in. So, there would have to be a boat load of gain before the chip to arrive at the 200 mv input, just to knock it back down again.

 

It’s possible to reduce the gain of the AGC system, but not to increase it. Another possible solution could be to add an external gain stage to the loop. But I don’t have much real estate left to add more parts. The compander chip is in a 16 pin wide body package.

 

All in all, looked like a good idea, but as usual the devil is in the details. Good thing I only bought 10 of the chips.

 

Steve KD1JV

 

BTW, Happy New Year everyone. Better yet, have a Merry New Year !