Topics

Setting up an old router as Wi Fi only for my railroad

Gary Dobias
 

I have and older Dual band Netgear router that I want to use only as a WiFi router, i do not want to connect to the internet. Can someone point me to a tutorial that will show me how to do this?

Thanks in Advance

Gary D

Christopher White
 

Usually there's nothing special to do. For most routers the WiFi and LAN can be used and configured in the usual manner with or without a connection to the Internet. Starting point is the manual for the router, usually locatable online if you don't have it to hand, and probably best to give it a factory reset so you can start with a blank sheet.

Dale Gloer
 

All you need to do is connect a network cable between your computer and one of the LAN ports.  Do not connect to the WAN port.  You can use DHCP to set the computer ip address but you will find it more convenient to set a fixed ip address in your computer for the LAN  port you are using.  In either case just power up the router and you are ready to go.  If you use the JMRI WiThrottle server it will tell you the ip address it is using.

Dale Gloer

Richard Sutcliffe
 

Hi Dale
My internet provider connection router was just replaced and i have the old router.
It's an OvisLink OV 504R6 that has 4 LAN ports and an ADSL one.
One lable on the back says WAN MAC the model number, and a bar code.

I don't see a WAN port to avoid.

Any thoughts

Dick

Jim Nealand
 

Richard S
That does not sound like a wifi router so if you are looking to use phones for throttles you need a wifi router.

Lou
 

It’s your ADSL port you want to avoid.

 

Lou

 

From: jmriusers@groups.io [mailto:jmriusers@groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Sutcliffe
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:48 PM
To: jmriusers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Setting up an old router as Wi Fi only for my railroad

 

Hi Dale
My internet provider connection router was just replaced and i have the old router.
It's an OvisLink OV 504R6 that has 4 LAN ports and an ADSL one.
One lable on the back says WAN MAC the model number, and a bar code.

I don't see a WAN port to avoid.

Any thoughts

Dick

Warren Winters
 

Gary, sorry to be a wet blanket, but the other 2 Replies I've see appear - on the surface - to be poor advice.

I have been helping people get onto the Internet, since Dial-Up Modem days, so I have decades of experience with this sort of stuff!

Just Factory Resetting your Router, then connecting Your 'Home' Router (Router A), to your 'Train' Router (Router B) is a _really_ bad idea!!!
-  You will have 2 DHCP Servers, one on Router A, and another on Router B
-  It's quite possible that Both Routers' DHCP Server will be serving out the _Same_ set of addresses (Can you imagine the Chaos?)
-  A PC/Laptop on Router B will (Undoubtedly) accidentally try to get to the Internet at some point (If you're using Windows, it will go looking for Windows Updates)

IMO, you are best to get the 2 Routers working CORRECTLY, which _will_ get you access to the Internet, even if you don't want it.

Correctly is determined by what _You_ Want or Need.  Part of the challenge here is that you haven't defined what you want to connect to the new WiFi on your old Router.

In my Home, I have:
-  4 Routers,
- 2 Subnets, and
- 1 (Relayed) WiFi Service.
(All this equipment talks to each other, as required)

___
So, what do you need to do?  I think that you have 2 Choices:
1  -  Use _Part_ of the facilities of Router B (Similar to the 'Just connect the 2 Routers together' solution)
2  -  Use _All_ of the facilities of Router B

Whichever one you select, this isn't a trivial task, and you need to be able to answer some questions about Router B

___
1  -  Partial
A  -  Do you know the Password?
B  -  Do you know the Make & Model (Sorry if you think I'm treating you like a Router-Baby, but Routers might not be your 'Thing')?
C  -  Do you have access to the User Manual (Should you need it)?

If you Reset the Router to Factory Defaults (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing), the Password will revert to the Factory Password too.  If you know what password _You_ put in it, then reset it to Factory Defaults, the password _You_ put into it is now _GONE_!!!

If you have the Manual, then you can find the Default Password in there.
-->  No Default Password + No Manual = _Don't_ Reset Router B to Factory Defaults.

OK, you you have done whatever you chose (Factory Reset, or NO Factory Reset).

The next thing is to Disable the DHCP Server of Router B.  However, doing this creates its own issues, so the Sequence that you do things in is _Really_ important!!!  You actually have to go Step-By-Step, and Disable the DHCP Server _LAST_.  OK?

A Router basically has 2 Parts:
-  Local Area Network (LAN side)
-  Wide Area Network (Internet or WAN side)

The 'Identification' of Router B comes from the WAN Side.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Factory Defaults mean that Router B is now: 192.168.0.0

This is both Good & Bad.  The standards say that a "0" means the Subnet of all the remaining 255 Addresses!  It can also mean the Single Address "0".  To avoid that confusion, I always start with 192.168.2.0 as my First/Default Subnet, for the Router that connects to the Internet.
-  Do you understand the term 'Subnet'?

I use 192.168.2.0 for 2 main reasons:
1  -  Bad people expect you to be using the Default of "0"
2  -  Using "2" avoids the "0" Standards issue

You will have things that are 'Infrastructure' in your Environment (Subnet), then then you will have 'Clients'.  In my environment, I have:
-  Infrastructure
   -  4 Routers
   -  2 Printers
   -  VOIP Server
-  Clients
   -  Servers (I have 3)
   -  Desktop PCs
   -  Laptop PCs
   -  Mobile Phones

It is easier if you have part of your Subnet set aside for Devices that have 'Static' TCP/IP Addresses.
-  I allocate 192.168.2.0 to 192.168.2.9

I do this, by telling the DHCP Server on Router A to serve out addresses in the Range:
-  192.168.2.10  to
-  192.168.2.199

This gives me space for 190 Clients, with 2 Ranges available for Static Addresses 192.168.2.0 - 192.168.2.9 & 192.168.2.200 - 192.168.2.255.  I use the Lower Range for Infrastructure Devices, and the Upper Range for Clients, or other 'stuff'.

___
2  -  All
My version of your Router B is a _Router_, rather than a _Switch_.  And it Routes between 2 Subnets (Home & Railway), so I keep the 2 _Separate_!!!  Devices like my Z21 & z21 Command Stations, and my Lenz LAN Interface are on: 192.168.3.0 (That's the Subnet, not a Single Address).
-  For a 'Partial' Implementation, you don't have multiple Subnets - Router B just 'Switches' between the 2 Ethernet 'Segments', not 2 TCP/IP 'Subnets'.

There is no right answer for you.  I have 2 Subnets, because I think it is Neat & Tidy to keep them separate.  My children often accuse me of being afflicted by OCD.  You decide for yourself!!!  If you are a Tennis fan, you know that Nadal suffers from having OCD.  I'm not _That_ bad!!!

My Router B can access the Internet, so that I can update the software on the Command stations, without having to take the software _to_ the Railway environment.  If you will _Never_ need to update Software in _Anything_, then there would appear to be no _Compelling_ reason to connect your Trains to the Internet.

___
The way forward.
I suggest you get back to me (Private or Public - It's your choice) with the following information:
-  Make & Model of your Router A
-  Make & Model of your Router B

Whether you want things to:
-  Just work, regardless of where you are at home (Routers A & B connected to each other in some way),   or
-  Keep the Trains completely separate from everything else

Keep in mind that you _Don't_ need to have a _Physical_ Ethernet cable between Router A & Router B.  You _can_ do it with (Relayed) WiFi.

So, decide what _You_ want, then let me know (Private or Public), and I will design a solution for you, and then help you implement it.

Gary Dobias
 

Warren,

I am going to respond to this in the open at is appears I am not the only one trying to do this

To be clear what I am trying to do let explain my setup.

I have an older but totally usable laptop running Windows 8, it is !made with JMRI and works perfectly.

I have an older Netgear Router Dual band WNDR3300. I pushed the rest button so the user name is : admin, the password is : password.

I have the Mac numbers and the Security pin. I have the instructions downloaded on my harddrive.

This router has 4 Lan ports and 1 Internet port.

I want to have this router set up as my TRAINET so I can use WiThrottle or Engine Driver with my cell phones and Kindels.

I do not want this system portable and I do not want it to connect to the internet or talk to my home router or my home network.
I want to be able to plug in the router and trunks the laptop and run trains.

I have communication to the layout via either a Locobuffer USB or a SPROG.

We did this at our club years ago and it works perfectly, I just don't remember how we did it. We set the IP to something like 100.100.100.4 port 400  I don't remember.

To goal was to avoid commonly used address.

Hopefully I painted an accurate picture and I have all the ingredients for this recipe. If I missed anything please let me know.

I have been setting up routers for years in know how to access the router and set it up as a household network my concern is I do not want this to talk to my home net or any other network. If I have to used a wired connection between the laptop and the router I have the cable. I know at the club the router is remote.

Thanks in advance for your help. No to discount any other responder but I don't think this is plug and play. Maybe I am being overly cautious, if I am shame on me.

Gary Dobias



On June 13, 2018, at 1:50 PM, Warren Winters <Summers.WWD@...> wrote:


Gary, sorry to be a wet blanket, but the other 2 Replies I've see appear - on the surface - to be poor advice.

I have been helping people get onto the Internet, since Dial-Up Modem days, so I have decades of experience with this sort of stuff!

Just Factory Resetting your Router, then connecting Your 'Home' Router (Router A), to your 'Train' Router (Router B) is a _really_ bad idea!!!
-  You will have 2 DHCP Servers, one on Router A, and another on Router B
-  It's quite possible that Both Routers' DHCP Server will be serving out the _Same_ set of addresses (Can you imagine the Chaos?)
-  A PC/Laptop on Router B will (Undoubtedly) accidentally try to get to the Internet at some point (If you're using Windows, it will go looking for Windows Updates)

IMO, you are best to get the 2 Routers working CORRECTLY, which _will_ get you access to the Internet, even if you don't want it.

Correctly is determined by what _You_ Want or Need.  Part of the challenge here is that you haven't defined what you want to connect to the new WiFi on your old Router.

In my Home, I have:
-  4 Routers,
- 2 Subnets, and
- 1 (Relayed) WiFi Service.
(All this equipment talks to each other, as required)

___
So, what do you need to do?  I think that you have 2 Choices:
1  -  Use _Part_ of the facilities of Router B (Similar to the 'Just connect the 2 Routers together' solution)
2  -  Use _All_ of the facilities of Router B

Whichever one you select, this isn't a trivial task, and you need to be able to answer some questions about Router B

___
1  -  Partial
A  -  Do you know the Password?
B  -  Do you know the Make & Model (Sorry if you think I'm treating you like a Router-Baby, but Routers might not be your 'Thing')?
C  -  Do you have access to the User Manual (Should you need it)?

If you Reset the Router to Factory Defaults (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing), the Password will revert to the Factory Password too.  If you know what password _You_ put in it, then reset it to Factory Defaults, the password _You_ put into it is now _GONE_!!!

If you have the Manual, then you can find the Default Password in there.
-->  No Default Password + No Manual = _Don't_ Reset Router B to Factory Defaults.

OK, you you have done whatever you chose (Factory Reset, or NO Factory Reset).

The next thing is to Disable the DHCP Server of Router B.  However, doing this creates its own issues, so the Sequence that you do things in is _Really_ important!!!  You actually have to go Step-By-Step, and Disable the DHCP Server _LAST_.  OK?

A Router basically has 2 Parts:
-  Local Area Network (LAN side)
-  Wide Area Network (Internet or WAN side)

The 'Identification' of Router B comes from the WAN Side.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Factory Defaults mean that Router B is now: 192.168.0.0

This is both Good & Bad.  The standards say that a "0" means the Subnet of all the remaining 255 Addresses!  It can also mean the Single Address "0".  To avoid that confusion, I always start with 192.168.2.0 as my First/Default Subnet, for the Router that connects to the Internet.
-  Do you understand the term 'Subnet'?

I use 192.168.2.0 for 2 main reasons:
1  -  Bad people expect you to be using the Default of "0"
2  -  Using "2" avoids the "0" Standards issue

You will have things that are 'Infrastructure' in your Environment (Subnet), then then you will have 'Clients'.  In my environment, I have:
-  Infrastructure
   -  4 Routers
   -  2 Printers
   -  VOIP Server
-  Clients
   -  Servers (I have 3)
   -  Desktop PCs
   -  Laptop PCs
   -  Mobile Phones

It is easier if you have part of your Subnet set aside for Devices that have 'Static' TCP/IP Addresses.
-  I allocate 192.168.2.0 to 192.168.2.9

I do this, by telling the DHCP Server on Router A to serve out addresses in the Range:
192.168.2.10  to
192.168.2.199

This gives me space for 190 Clients, with 2 Ranges available for Static Addresses 192.168.2.0 - 192.168.2.9 & 192.168.2.200 - 192.168.2.255.  I use the Lower Range for Infrastructure Devices, and the Upper Range for Clients, or other 'stuff'.

___
2  -  All
My version of your Router B is a _Router_, rather than a _Switch_.  And it Routes between 2 Subnets (Home & Railway), so I keep the 2 _Separate_!!!  Devices like my Z21 & z21 Command Stations, and my Lenz LAN Interface are on: 192.168.3.0 (That's the Subnet, not a Single Address).
-  For a 'Partial' Implementation, you don't have multiple Subnets - Router B just 'Switches' between the 2 Ethernet 'Segments', not 2 TCP/IP 'Subnets'.

There is no right answer for you.  I have 2 Subnets, because I think it is Neat & Tidy to keep them separate.  My children often accuse me of being afflicted by OCD.  You decide for yourself!!!  If you are a Tennis fan, you know that Nadal suffers from having OCD.  I'm not _That_ bad!!!

My Router B can access the Internet, so that I can update the software on the Command stations, without having to take the software _to_ the Railway environment.  If you will _Never_ need to update Software in _Anything_, then there would appear to be no _Compelling_ reason to connect your Trains to the Internet.

___
The way forward.
I suggest you get back to me (Private or Public - It's your choice) with the following information:
-  Make & Model of your Router A
-  Make & Model of your Router B

Whether you want things to:
-  Just work, regardless of where you are at home (Routers A & B connected to each other in some way),   or
-  Keep the Trains completely separate from everything else

Keep in mind that you _Don't_ need to have a _Physical_ Ethernet cable between Router A & Router B.  You _can_ do it with (Relayed) WiFi.

So, decide what _You_ want, then let me know (Private or Public), and I will design a solution for you, and then help you implement it.

Dave Heap
 

There was never any suggestion that the two routers be interconnected. The poster(s) wanted a standalone WiFi network with only one computer connection; to the JMRI computer (via LAN cable or WiFi) and this computer would not connect to the Internet.

In most cases an old ADSL, cable or WAN router at either previous or default settings is usually fine. It's DCHP server is usually enabled by default, and most likely its WiFi Network as well. The JMRI computer and any WiThrottles connect to that router and there is zero impact on the existing home network.

When I take my gear to a convention and want a standalone system with one or more computers, I just pick up any old router I have in the cupboard and take it. Provided I know its WiFi password, all is well.

-- 
Dave in Australia

The New England Convention 2018

On 14 Jun 2018, at 9:50 AM, Warren Winters <Summers.WWD@...> wrote:

Just Factory Resetting your Router, then connecting Your 'Home' Router (Router A), to your 'Train' Router (Router B) is a _really_ bad idea!!!
-  You will have 2 DHCP Servers, one on Router A, and another on Router B
-  It's quite possible that Both Routers' DHCP Server will be serving out the _Same_ set of addresses (Can you imagine the Chaos?)
-  A PC/Laptop on Router B will (Undoubtedly) accidentally try to get to the Internet at some point (If you're using Windows, it will go looking for Windows Updates)

IMO, you are best to get the 2 Routers working CORRECTLY, which _will_ get you access to the Internet, even if you don't want it.

Heiko Rosemann
 

Gary,

this is what I understood, and then it's absolutely correct what the
other guys have posted: As long as there is no physical connection
between the two routers, the ADSL/Internet/WAN port (different names for
the same thing) is left unconnected _and_ the two WLAN networks have
different SSIDs (aka names), there will be no connection between the two
networks.

Of course you can also set the IP address of your train router to
something other than it's default. You are free according to the
appropriate internet standard (actually called RFC) to use any IP
address in the 192.168.x.y range, with x between 0 and 255 and y between
1 and 254. Typical convention has y set to 1 for the router. The network
mask will be 255.255.255.0. Typically, small home routers are "made for"
this IP address range, so you might encounter small glitches if you go
for any of the ranges below.

Or any address in the 172.x.y.z range, with x between 16 and 31. The
network mask will be 255.255.0.0.

Or an address in the 10.x.x.x range. The network mask will be 255.0.0.0.

You may have to also adjust the DHCP server settings to make sure it
will give a connected device an address within the same range. But many
home routers automatically do that when you change their IP address.

These three ranges are designated for "private network" use, so those
few hundred million home router networks in the world can co-exist while
being connected to the internet.

Theoretically, as long as your train network is not connected to the
internet, you don't have to follow the internet standards. But it is
good practice to do so anyway (plus the smartphones you use as throttles
might be connected to the internet through the cell network). Basically,
this is required so when a smartphone requests a website, the standards
make sure the website does _not_ have an IP address that is also
assigned to the local network.

So, to sum this up:

1) Turn on your train network router
2) Connect a computer to a LAN port
3) Open the configuration website in a browser
4) Give your train wireless network a nice name (SSID) and password

Now you are ready to operate, from a network perspective. If you want,
you can go further:

5) Change the IP address of the router to something 192.168.x.1
6) Check the DHCP server settings that they give out addresses in the
192.168.x-range as well

Now it's time to connect your JMRI computer to the router (though of
course you could use that computer in step 2 as well), setup the layout
connection and start the withrottle server. And you should be set.

You could also give the JMRI computer a fixed IP address in the same
range as the router (though not the same address) and make sure the
router DHCP server excludes that address from it's range. But withrottle
automatically broadcasts it's IP address, so that's not strictly required.

Hope this helps,
Heiko

On 06/14/2018 02:50 AM, Gary Dobias wrote:
Warren,

I am going to respond to this in the open at is appears I am not the
only one trying to do this

To be clear what I am trying to do let explain my setup.

I have an older but totally usable laptop running Windows 8, it is !made
with JMRI and works perfectly.

I have an older Netgear Router Dual band WNDR3300. I pushed the rest
button so the user name is : admin, the password is : password.

I have the Mac numbers and the Security pin. I have the instructions
downloaded on my harddrive.

This router has 4 Lan ports and 1 Internet port.

I want to have this router set up as my TRAINET so I can use WiThrottle
or Engine Driver with my cell phones and Kindels.

I do not want this system portable and I do not want it to connect to
the internet or talk to my home router or my home network.
I want to be able to plug in the router and trunks the laptop and run
trains.

I have communication to the layout via either a Locobuffer USB or a SPROG.

We did this at our club years ago and it works perfectly, I just don't
remember how we did it. We set the IP to something like 100.100.100.4
port 400  I don't remember.

To goal was to avoid commonly used address.

Hopefully I painted an accurate picture and I have all the ingredients
for this recipe. If I missed anything please let me know.

I have been setting up routers for years in know how to access the
router and set it up as a household network my concern is I do not want
this to talk to my home net or any other network. If I have to used a
wired connection between the laptop and the router I have the cable. I
know at the club the router is remote.

Thanks in advance for your help. No to discount any other responder but
I don't think this is plug and play. Maybe I am being overly cautious,
if I am shame on me.

Gary Dobias



On June 13, 2018, at 1:50 PM, Warren Winters <Summers.WWD@...> wrote:


Gary, sorry to be a wet blanket, but the other 2 Replies I've see appear
- on the surface - to be poor advice.

I have been helping people get onto the Internet, since Dial-Up Modem
days, so I have decades of experience with this sort of stuff!

Just Factory Resetting your Router, then connecting Your 'Home' Router
(Router A), to your 'Train' Router (Router B) is a _really_ bad idea!!!
-  You will have 2 DHCP Servers, one on Router A, and another on Router B
-  It's quite possible that Both Routers' DHCP Server will be serving
out the _Same_ set of addresses (Can you imagine the Chaos?)
-  A PC/Laptop on Router B will (Undoubtedly) accidentally try to get to
the Internet at some point (If you're using Windows, it will go looking
for Windows Updates)

IMO, you are best to get the 2 Routers working CORRECTLY, which _will_
get you access to the Internet, even if you don't want it.

Correctly is determined by what _You_ Want or Need.  Part of the
challenge here is that you haven't defined what you want to connect to
the new WiFi on your old Router.

In my Home, I have:
-  4 Routers,
- 2 Subnets, and
- 1 (Relayed) WiFi Service.
(All this equipment talks to each other, as required)

___
So, what do you need to do?  I think that you have 2 Choices:
1  -  Use _Part_ of the facilities of Router B (Similar to the 'Just
connect the 2 Routers together' solution)
2  -  Use _All_ of the facilities of Router B

Whichever one you select, this isn't a trivial task, and you need to be
able to answer some questions about Router B

___
*1  -  Partial*
A  -  Do you know the Password?
B  -  Do you know the Make & Model (Sorry if you think I'm treating you
like a Router-Baby, but Routers might not be your 'Thing')?
C  -  Do you have access to the User Manual (Should you need it)?

If you Reset the Router to Factory Defaults (Which isn't necessarily a
bad thing), the Password will revert to the Factory Password too.  If
you know what password _You_ put in it, then reset it to Factory
Defaults, the password _You_ put into it is now _GONE_!!!

If you have the Manual, then you can find the Default Password in there.
-->  No Default Password + No Manual = _Don't_ Reset Router B to Factory
Defaults.

OK, you you have done whatever you chose (Factory Reset, or NO Factory
Reset).

The next thing is to Disable the DHCP Server of Router B.  However,
doing this creates its own issues, so the Sequence that you do things in
is _Really_ important!!!  You actually have to go Step-By-Step, and
Disable the DHCP Server _LAST_.  OK?

A Router basically has 2 Parts:
-  Local Area Network (LAN side)
-  Wide Area Network (Internet or WAN side)

The 'Identification' of Router B comes from the WAN Side.  It wouldn't
surprise me if the Factory Defaults mean that Router B is now:
*192.168.0.0 <http://192.168.0.0>*

This is both Good & Bad.  The standards say that a *"0"* means the
Subnet of all the remaining 255 Addresses!  It can also mean the Single
Address *"0"*.  To avoid that confusion, I always start with 192.168.2.0
<http://192.168.2.0> as my First/Default Subnet, for the Router that
connects to the Internet.
-  Do you understand the term 'Subnet'?

I use *192.168.2.0 <http://192.168.2.0>* for 2 main reasons:
1  -  Bad people expect you to be using the Default of "0"
2  -  Using *"2"* avoids the *"0"* Standards issue

You will have things that are 'Infrastructure' in your Environment
(Subnet), then then you will have 'Clients'.  In my environment, I have:
-  Infrastructure
   -  4 Routers
   -  2 Printers
   -  VOIP Server
-  Clients
   -  Servers (I have 3)
   -  Desktop PCs
   -  Laptop PCs
   -  Mobile Phones

It is easier if you have part of your Subnet set aside for Devices that
have 'Static' TCP/IP Addresses.
-  I allocate 192.168.2.0 <http://192.168.2.0> to 192.168.2.9
<http://192.168.2.9>

I do this, by telling the DHCP Server on Router A to serve out addresses
in the Range:
-  192.168.2.10 <http://192.168.2.10>  to
-  192.168.2.199 <http://192.168.2.199>

This gives me space for 190 Clients, with 2 Ranges available for Static
Addresses *192.168.2.0 <http://192.168.2.0> - 192.168.2.9
<http://192.168.2.9>* & *192.168.2.200 <http://192.168.2.200> -
192.168.2.255 <http://192.168.2.255>*.  I use the Lower Range for
Infrastructure Devices, and the Upper Range for Clients, or other 'stuff'.

___
2  -  All
My version of your Router B is a _Router_, rather than a _Switch_.  And
it Routes between 2 Subnets (Home & Railway), so I keep the 2
_Separate_!!!  Devices like my Z21 & z21 Command Stations, and my Lenz
LAN Interface are on: 192.168.3.0 <http://192.168.3.0> (That's the
Subnet, not a Single Address).
-  For a 'Partial' Implementation, you don't have multiple Subnets -
Router B just 'Switches' between the 2 Ethernet 'Segments', not 2 TCP/IP
'Subnets'.

There is no right answer for you.  I have 2 Subnets, because I think it
is Neat & Tidy to keep them separate.  My children often accuse me of
being afflicted by OCD.  You decide for yourself!!!  If you are a Tennis
fan, you know that Nadal suffers from having OCD.  I'm not _That_ bad!!!

My Router B can access the Internet, so that I can update the software
on the Command stations, without having to take the software _to_ the
Railway environment.  If you will _Never_ need to update Software in
_Anything_, then there would appear to be no _Compelling_ reason to
connect your Trains to the Internet.

___
*The way forward.*
I suggest you get back to me (Private or Public - It's your choice) with
the following information:
-  Make & Model of your Router A
-  Make & Model of your Router B

Whether you want things to:
-  Just work, regardless of where you are at home (Routers A & B
connected to each other in some way),   or
-  Keep the Trains completely separate from everything else

Keep in mind that you _Don't_ need to have a _Physical_ Ethernet cable
between Router A & Router B.  You _can_ do it with (Relayed) WiFi.

So, decide what _You_ want, then let me know (Private or Public), and I
will design a solution for you, and then help you implement it.


--
eMails verschlüsseln mit PGP - privacy is your right!
Mein PGP-Key zur Verifizierung: http://pgp.mit.edu

Warren Winters
 

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 06:21 pm, Heiko Rosemann wrote:
Or any address in the 172.x.y.z range, with x between 16 and 31. The network mask will be 255.255.0.0.

@Heiko, the above isn't actually correct.
The "172.x.y.z" specifies the Subnet, or Start/Lowest Address.
The "255.255.0.0" Netmask specifies how many Addresses (Therefore Devices) can be in the Subnet (And, therefore, the End/Highest Address)

With a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.0.0 says that the last address in the Subnet is 172.28.10.255.
And, with a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.255.0 says that the last address in the Subnet is 172.27.11.255.
-  If I'm wrong, maybe someone would like to chip in with a link.

___

And, if you just want to have Router B (The Train Router) stand alone, and don't care about _anything_ else, then reset it to the factory defaults, and away you go!!!
-  But, I wouldn't (There's my OCD again)

If you have another WiFi nearby, then - IMO - you need to understand the consequences of that.

Firstly, the previously mentioned SSID (Referred to as "a nice name" for your "train wireless network") needs to be Unique, within Radio Range (Plus a bit extra) - The distance is impacted by how much RF Attenuation 'stuff' is between the 2 Nodes Devices (People, Walls, Steel etc).

This is where @Dave's suggestion has an issue.
@Dave said: "When I take my gear to a convention and want a standalone system with one or more computers, I just pick up any old router I have in the cupboard and take it. Provided I know its WiFi password, all is well."

If the worst happens - by some extremely bad luck - and another person takes the _exact same Router_, to the exact same show, and they are _Both_ reset to Factory Defaults, that could also have the exact same WiFi SSID.  My expectation is that both groups of people will be confused why things are behaving in an odd manner.

This is why I was emphasising understanding the Detail.  I don't like surprises, and I like to be in control of my own Destiny.

With all due respect to @Dave, IMO you want to know more than just the password (Although he was _Not_ suggesting that _only_ knowing the Password was sufficient, but he didn't suggest that anything else was required).

In the early days of WiFI, the SSID was something a Human could read easily.  As WiFi became popular, Manufacturers moved towards Unique WiFi SSIDs, so that Owners never had a Clash.  If @Dave's "any old router" has one of these 'gobbledygook' SSIDs, then it might not be easily Identifiable, from any other SSIDs at the Show (Assuming there are multiple).

The last thing you might want to know is how the Radio side of things is set up.  For this, there are 2 aspects:
1  -  The Frequency Band
2  -  The Channel setup

Modern equipment is more likely to be able to have some intersection between the WiFi Device (AKA:  WAP - Wireless Access Point), and anything that wants to connect to the WAP.  Modern equipment often has Dual Bands, so that it's more Flexible for both Old & New Clients.  Dual Bands = Dual SSIDs.
-  Can you see how @Dave's "any old router" has considerations you might need to be aware of.

For the Channel setup, you have at least 2 alternatives:
1  -  Make your WAP use a Static Channel
2  -  Allow your WAP to Chanel-Hop, until it finds some 'clear air'

Neither of these are ideal, but I prefer #1.

I start by using an (Android) application called "WiFi Analyzer" (Alessandro Falcone), to see what channels are currently being used.

If you see SSIDs frequently hopping from Channel to Channel, you can guess that they are set to AutoMagically Channel-Hop.  If you see SSIDs next to each other, and neither is moving to a less congested Center Channel, you can assume that they are set to Fixed/Specific Channels.
(WiFi is set to use a band wider than just 1 channel to improve Speed.  When a WAP can't find a less congested Channel, it will reduce the Bandwidth used, to improve the Signal-to-Noise-Ratio (SNR), at the cost of Slower Speeds.)

I find some spare space (Typically 3 Channels), and use the Channel in the Middle.  If, at some point in the future, I start getting Reliability or Speed issues, I have another look at what the "WiFi Analyzer" has to show me.  Using @Dave's "any old router" example again, set yourself up at the Show, then when _everyone else_ has their WIFi operating too, check what the "WiFi Analyzer" has to show you.

One way to minimise any issues for your own Layout at a Display, is to be positioned near a Wall.  That way, there is less opportunity for people around you to cause you a problem.  Conversely, while Pride-of-Place might be in the Center, that is also the most likely location to be impacted by another Exhibitor's WiFi.

To change channels, you would need to access the Router's Web page.  For that, you would probably need the Router's TCP/IP Address.  While we have talked about the Router taking x.x.x.1, this isn't always the case.  It is equally acceptable to position the Router's TCP/IP Address at (Or near) the TOP of the Subnet (There seems to be obvious reasons for using the Bottom of the Subnet Range, and less obvious reasons for using 'near' the Top).

Using @Dave's "any old router" example again, if you don't remember its TCP/IP Address, you might not be able to change it's configuration (Unless you reset it to Factory defaults, because you know what that will give you).

___
Finally, all this _can_ be really straight forward.  But, without sufficient Understanding, when something goes wrong, or doesn't work as you might expect, you are more likely to have an issue that you can't resolve quickly.  As I've said, I prefer to be in control of my own Destiny.

Dave Heap
 

@Dave has actually worked in system administration and a data centre, alongside the network guys for quite a few years, as well as in telephone and data cabling and home user support and ADSL/Fibre setup, so not a novice.

No two of my old routers are at all likely to be the same brand/model or at system defaults. Apart from that, no one else at my convention is likely to set up a private LAN, the venue is totally unlikely to have a defaults router, most users around our areas used ISP-supplied routers, pre-defaulted to unique SSIDs and passwords.

Interference is always a possibility but most routers default to automatic channel selection...

For your average home user who happens to have a spare router around, the probability that both are using the same SSID and have fixed channels is not high.

On 14 Jun 2018, at 1:59 PM, Warren Winters <Summers.WWD@...> wrote:

This is where @Dave's suggestion has an issue.
@Dave said: "When I take my gear to a convention and want a standalone system with one or more computers, I just pick up any old router I have in the cupboard and take it. Provided I know its WiFi password, all is well."

Heiko Rosemann
 

On 06/14/2018 05:59 AM, Warren Winters wrote:
On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 06:21 pm, Heiko Rosemann wrote:

Or any address in the 172.x.y.z range, with x between 16 and 31.
The network mask will be 255.255.0.0.

@Heiko, the above isn't actually correct.
The "172.x.y.z" specifies the Subnet, or Start/Lowest Address.
The "255.255.0.0" Netmask specifies how many Addresses (Therefore
Devices) can be in the Subnet (And, therefore, the End/Highest Address)
Yes, I oversimplified, and the netmask values I gave are the default
ones, which can be changed.

There is three different types of networks defined in the standards:

Class A, with a netmask of 255.0.0.0 and IP addresses in the range
1.0.0.0 to 126.255.255.255

Class B, with netmask of 255.255.0.0 and IP addresses in the range
128.0.0.0 to 191.255.255.255 and

Class C, with netmask of 255.255.255.0 and IP addresses in the range
192.0.0.0 to 223.255.255.255

You can change the netmask from the default, which is called
"sub-netting", as you describe. (Normally not required or even helpful
in home networks, which is why I left that part out of my original post).

With a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.0.0 says that the
last address in the Subnet is 172.28.10.255.
That's not entirely correct - the (sub-)network address at a netmask of
255.255.0.0 (or /16) will end in .0.0. So if you give the PC an IP
address of 172.27.11.0 and a netmask of 255.255.0.0, it will be part of
a network with network address of 172.27.0.0 and IP addresses between
172.27.0.1 and 172.27.255.255. And actually that is again
oversimplifying it, because the highest address on a network is the
broadcast address, which must not be assigned to a node.

And, with a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.255.0 says that
the last address in the Subnet is 172.27.11.255.
Yes.

-  If I'm wrong, maybe someone would like to chip in with a link.
Check out http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~vcb5043/MISC/IP%20Intranet.html for
some more explanation.

Best Regards,
Heiko

--
Mein PGP-Key zur Verifizierung: http://pgp.mit.edu

Dave Heap
 

The subnet mask depends on what class subnet you are working with. For the defined private networks:

The address blocks are:
Class A: 10.0.0.0 
Class B: From 172.16.0.0 to 172.31.0.0
Class C: From 192.168.0.0 to 192.168.255.0


The matching subnet masks are:
Class A: 255.0.0.0
Class B: 
255.255.0.0
Class C: From 
255.255.255.0

For your average home router, using DCHP and not tinkering with router DCHP settings ensures all is well. If you need to set a static IP for a server, a different ballgame.

BTW, I spent most of my working career at an institution that was allocated a Class B public subnet in the IPV4 space. That meant we had a largish slice of the public pie and we all had public IP addresses for many years.

-- 
Dave in Australia

The New England Convention 2018

On 14 Jun 2018, at 1:59 PM, Warren Winters <Summers.WWD@...> wrote:

The "172.x.y.z" specifies the Subnet, or Start/Lowest Address.
The "255.255.0.0" Netmask specifies how many Addresses (Therefore Devices) can be in the Subnet (And, therefore, the End/Highest Address)

With a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.0.0 says that the last address in the Subnet is 172.28.10.255.
And, with a Subnet of 172.27.11.0, a Netmask of 255.555.255.0 says that the last address in the Subnet is 172.27.11.255.
-  If I'm wrong, maybe someone would like to chip in with a link.

Michael Piazza
 

The ADSL port is your WAN port.  It is the connection to your telephone line thru an ADSL adapter.  The adapter is used because the ADSL signal is multiplexed onto the phone line together with the POTS phone signal.  Ignore connecting anything to the ADSL port and like others have said enable the wifi and connect the router/switch via one of the hardwired ports into a computer or another network switch port.  Depending upon whether the router/switch ports are uplink ports you might need to use a reversing RJ45 patch cable.

Mike Piazza

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 15:48 Richard Sutcliffe <ras1@...> wrote:
Hi Dale
My internet provider connection router was just replaced and i have the old router.
It's an OvisLink OV 504R6 that has 4 LAN ports and an ADSL one.
One lable on the back says WAN MAC the model number, and a bar code.

I don't see a WAN port to avoid.

Any thoughts

Dick

Steve Spence
 

Correct, that unit does not do wifi. Its a dsl router.


On Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 7:42 PM Jim Nealand via Groups.Io <casadiego86=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Richard S
That does not sound like a wifi router so if you are looking to use phones for throttles you need a wifi router.

wdavis5069
 

Our module group also uses a WiFi set up at shows.  It addition to being a stand alone, not connected to the internet our IT expert scanned the channels and found one without conflicts.  The one thing he initially missed is setting the router to not broadcast it's SSID.  WE were experiencing problems with response times and his scan revealed that every android phone in the place was trying to connect to our router to reach the internet.  He turned off SSID broadcasting and solved that problem.  I have learned to turn off WiFi on my personal cell phone as I have connected it to our router in the past, so even if I am not using it to run trains it connects to the router and tries to access the internet, which accelerates the battery drain.

Wil

Tom Wie
 

Dale,

 

The ADSL port would be the one to avoid.

 

Tom Wie

 

From: jmriusers@groups.io [mailto:jmriusers@groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Sutcliffe
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 15:48
To: jmriusers@groups.io
Subject: Re: [jmriusers] Setting up an old router as Wi Fi only for my railroad

 

Hi Dale
My internet provider connection router was just replaced and i have the old router.
It's an OvisLink OV 504R6 that has 4 LAN ports and an ADSL one.
One lable on the back says WAN MAC the model number, and a bar code.

I don't see a WAN port to avoid.

Any thoughts

Dick

Don Weigt
 

I'm no expert on computer communication, but am surprised that Android phones would connect to a router if they didn't have its password. I must have missed something.

This discussion is interesting to me because I've wondered about using my old Netgear router as a separate network for my model railroad. So far, I'm in the basic learning stage, with nothing implemented, and no JMRI installed. But, I sure like the idea of using tablets and smart phones for wireless throttles! Why spend hundreds each for dedicated wireless throttles with no other functions?

Don Weigt

Christopher White
 

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 08:07 am, Don Weigt wrote:
I'm no expert on computer communication, but am surprised that Android phones would connect to a router if they didn't have its password. I must have missed something.
I don't think they were connecting. As you rightly say they'd need to password to do so. I suspect the problem was just that they were trying to connect, and failing, but the amount of traffic was slowing the router down as it would see the initial connection request and respond with a challenge asking for the appropriate password/phrase/code.