Storage and free/paid group #poll


 

In getting ready to upload another file, I just noticed that there's
been a LOT of uploading (all good stuff!) that's jumped our storage
use on the hp75 group to 645 MB out of 1 GB. At this rate, we're
rapidly closing in on our limit, at which point we're going to have
to decide which things to delete, or we're going to have to come up
with $120/year to increase storage to 10 GB, which is the main benefit
of a paid group. (You can see the plans/pricing at:
https://groups.io/static/pricing

We currently have 24 members, of which at least two are duplicates,
so no more than 22 actual members, at this point.

There's not a big rush about it, but think about whether you'd be
willing to contribute a small to the annual/monthly cost, or if you'd
rather be very selective about the materials we keep on-line.

I was going to send this as a regular message, but I'm going to post
it as a poll instead. Let me know what you think.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================

Results

See Who Responded


 

Perhaps we should apply compression to the files first. Coming from the Unix side of things, I would tend to use gzip or bzip (better compression), but with many Windows users perhaps we should use zip files?


J-F Garnier
 

Maybe could we avoid to post large documents that are available elsewhere (the two hp museum sites), but just post links?
Compressing pdf files will not help much, they are usually made of images already compressed.

J-F



 

Craig wrote:

Perhaps we should apply compression to the files first. Coming from the
Unix side of things, I would tend to use gzip or bzip (better
compression), but with many Windows users perhaps we should use zip files?
Most (modern) PDF files are inherently compressed, so little advantage is
gained, however older PDF files and some created by poor scanning s/w can
indeed be compressed, sometimes saving as much as 50%. It's best if
contributors try to compress the PDF using Acrobat or other PDF-authoring
apps, or if not available, then I agree the uploading as .ZIP files is the
most universal.

Also, a number of documents have been uploaded multiple times (e.g. the
original NOMAS listings in 4-up format, then again in 1-up format, some PPC
Journal articles, etc.). Suggest that uploaders keep an eye on things like
this (since only uploader can remove his/her files) and remove the
(presumably) older and larger files in favor of the smaller and more useful
versions. I recently removed some individual files that were uploaded again
later in a larger document collection. The original NOMAS listings can
likewise be removed. In some cases it may be useful to add a note saying the
files were removed as dupes but could be made available in the original
format if needed.

All that said, I add my thanks to the many contributors; the collection of
75 information that has been contributed so quickly is impressive.

--bob


 

Craig wrote...
Perhaps we should apply compression to the files first. Coming
from the Unix side of things, I would tend to use gzip or bzip
(better compression), but with many Windows users perhaps we
should use zip files?
A lot of the stuff is already compressed. The biggest memory eaters
are the PDF files, and they're already compressed. For example,
ZIP'ing the 75no1.pdf file (85 MB), results in a small savings, a
ZIP file of just short of 83 MB.

So, ZIPing is always a good idea, but not always terribly worthwhile.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


 

Robert wrote...
Also, a number of documents have been uploaded multiple times (e.g.
the original NOMAS listings in 4-up format, then again in 1-up format,
some PPC Journal articles, etc.). Suggest that uploaders keep an eye
on things like this
(since only uploader can remove his/her files)
Well, not entirely true. I, as group owner, can delete anything,
including the entire group... :-)))

All that said, I add my thanks to the many contributors; the
collection of 75 information that has been contributed so quickly
is impressive.
Indeed.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


 

I’m ok with removing the 4-up listings if people agree, since they are nicer to use in the 1-up bookmarked format.


 

Be nice to Al Kossow and try to get the pdf’s posted on bitsavers.org .

It also means the files will be available for a very long time, Al made arrangements for this.

And there will be a lot of mirrors were the files can be downloaded.

 

-Rik

 

Van: hp75@groups.io [mailto:hp75@groups.io] Namens Everett Kaser
Verzonden: zondag 8 januari 2017 21:42
Aan: hp75@groups.io
Onderwerp: [hp75] Storage and free/paid group #poll

 

A new poll has been created:

In getting ready to upload another file, I just noticed that there's
been a LOT of uploading (all good stuff!) that's jumped our storage
use on the hp75 group to 645 MB out of 1 GB. At this rate, we're
rapidly closing in on our limit, at which point we're going to have
to decide which things to delete, or we're going to have to come up
with $120/year to increase storage to 10 GB, which is the main benefit
of a paid group. (You can see the plans/pricing at:
https://groups.io/static/pricing

We currently have 24 members, of which at least two are duplicates,
so no more than 22 actual members, at this point.

There's not a big rush about it, but think about whether you'd be
willing to contribute a small to the annual/monthly cost, or if you'd
rather be very selective about the materials we keep on-line.

I was going to send this as a regular message, but I'm going to post
it as a poll instead. Let me know what you think.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================

1. Keep it FREE, tighten our belts!
2. If/when we need more storage, change plans, I'll help with $5 or more per year

Vote Now


Martin Hepperle
 

Hi,

as a first step in this HP 75 as well as in the Series 80 group we can easily tighten our belt by deleting a few duplicated files (duplication occurred mostly by creating improved PDFs or by converting large scans to smaller PDFs).

Paying 5$ per year should be no problem if someone is really interested. For me this would be an option maybe in a year or two, when the traffic on this new group has come back to "normal" level of messages and I see the long term value of the site. I do not expect that we will keep up the current traffic frequency.

We can avoid duplication with other web sites (just post a link to the original document). For really new documents I second Riks proposal to also send them to archival sites like bitsavers for long term availability. Maybe not every single document right now, but selected documents collected into archives.

I think that the groups.io system could need some improvements which we can propose to the company. Maybe some items like:

  • the ability to edit or even delete messages by the original author (typos, corrections),
  • an easy way to move files and folders for restructuring content by the original creator,
  • an option for personal mail to a member without having to go through the group.

Martin



 

Martin wrote...
I think that the groups.io system could need some improvements
which we can propose to the company. Maybe some items like:
the ability to edit or even delete messages by the original author
(typos, corrections),
This is already there, via the web site. Log in to Groups.io and
go to the group in question, then go to MESSAGES and find YOUR
message. View the message. At the bottom of the message view,
in the center, you'll see a "More" link. Click on that, and you'll
get a pop-up that offers:

View Source
Edit Message
Delete Message
All Posts By This Member
Report This Message

When looking at a message from someone else, you only get the last
two options. The "All Posts By This Member" basically does a search
for all posts by that member :-) and displays a list of their posts.

an easy way to move files and folders for restructuring content
by the original creator.
That something group Moderators can do to ANY file, and any UPLOADER
of a file can do. Go to the Files section, find a file that you've
uploaded, and you'll notice that it has FOUR icons to the right of the
file name (where usually there's only the one, a flag (for REPORT
FILE). On files you uploaded you'll also see:
EDIT (pencil on paper)
MOVE (scissors)
DELETE (trash can)
EDIT lets you rename the file and edit the description.
MOVE brings up a dialog showing the tree structure of the FILE system,
and you just click on the folder into which you want to move it.
DELETE ...uh... deletes the file. :-) But after you're prompted. :-)

an option for personal mail to a member without having to go through
the group.
I'm not entirely sure what you had in mind here, but you CAN do that
fairly easily. Since you said, "...without having to go through the
group," I assume you're talking about sending an email to someone
after you've received a posting from them via email (i.e., your group
membership isn't set to "web only", but rather your SUBSCRIPTION is
set to "All Messages" or one of the "Digests". The posting person's
email address is shown at the top of their message. So, yes, if you
click REPLY it will go to the group, but you can use their 'private'
email address out of the header to send them a message privately.

Or is that not what you meant?

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


Martin Hepperle
 

Everett,

thank you for your help. I see that everything I was missing is not missing... and sometimes the obvious is hidden under gray layers of my brain.  Thank you for your patience.

BTW: in Files under EDIT I seem to be able to only edit the description text and the file name (as stored). Is there also an option to UPDATE/REPLACE the file? (... a slight hope that this function does not yet exist glows in his eyes...). So far I have used EDIT to copy (save) the description, then DELETEd the file and then uploaded the updated file while pasting the description into the field. An UPDATE... or REPLACE... button would allow to select the "new" file to replace the existing one while maintaining file name and description.

Martin


 

Martin wrote...
BTW: in Files under EDIT I seem to be able to only edit the
descriptiontext and the file name(as stored). Is there also an
option to UPDATE/REPLACE the file? (... a slight hope that this
function does not yet exist glows in his eyes...).
:-))) I'm not aware of this feature being implemented yet. I'll
post a note on the 'beta' group and see what happens.

So far I have
used EDIT to copy (save) the description, then DELETEd the file and
then uploaded the updated file while pasting the description into
the field. An UPDATE... or REPLACE... button would allow to select
the "new" file to replace the existing one while maintaining file
name and description.
I do the same, except I don't EDIT, I just highlight the description
right there on the page and copy it.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


Dave Frederickson
 

A better way to reduce the size of pdf files is to optimize them.  The 85MB 75no1.pdf file was reduced to 24.5MB using the default settings in Acrobat Pro.

Dave


 

Dave wrote...
A better way to reduce the size of pdf files is to optimizethem.
The 85MB 75no1.pdf file was reduced to 24.5MBusing the default
settings in Acrobat Pro.
Alas, I don't have Acrobat, nor can I justify the cost, so I'll have
to leave that optimization to others that do have the software. :-)

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


Martin Hepperle
 

Dear All,

as needed, I can help to minimize file sizes - just holler. I have access to Acrobat XI Pro and I also have some limited experience with scripting Acrobat (e.g. to rearrange or cut pages into quadrants, to add watermarks etc.). I can also use Photoshop batch mode to reduce color depth or to convert grayscale to black&white of a series of individual images. Another useful tool for converting PDF documents is the open source tool Ghostscript/Ghostview.

In any case one should check the result - Acrobat's "optimization" allows to define resampling resolution and some more details.

For my own document scans I normally use pure b/w scans at 400 dpi for pure text pages and grayscale for pages in color pages or with photographs only. While the b/w scans do not look as nice on screen as grayscale scans, they print well (often sharper) and are much smaller than grayscale. This is a compromise between size and quality, but IMHO a reasonable one. For perfect museum quality scans one would like to scan at 1200+ dpi, but for us hobby historians such resolutions seem to be unncessary.

Just my .25$

Martn


Martin Hepperle
 

Dear all,

in order to conserve space I have

  • cut the 4-up scans into single pages
  • OCRed the text again to make it searchable
  • saved the result withj reduced size

The net result is a reduction to about 37% of the orginal total size for the files listed below (the list shows the original file as well as its "single-pages" equivalent.

As an example I have temporarily uploaded VisiCalc ROM/VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf.

If everybody thinks this is useful replacement for Everetts original scans, I propose to upload the "new" files to replace the original files (to be deleted later). Otherwise I would remove my "single page" copy.

Greetings, Martin

Bytes         File Name
41'519'519    75ddddddROMsrc - single pages.pdf
93'608'826    75ddddddROMsrc.pdf
            
 7'685'402    75HW_SvcMan - reduced size.pdf
15'635'620    75HW_SvcMan.pdf
            
11'669'650    75InternalDocs - single pages.pdf
83'745'071    75InternalDocs.pdf
            
 7'675'300    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
17'052'248    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc.pdf

 5'271'555    BarcROMa - single pages.pdf
                        
 7'230'008    IO_ROM_SRC - single pages.pdf
15'467'774    IO_ROM_SRC.pdf
            
 8'666'180    Math_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
19'898'622    Math_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 3'070'716    Plotter_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 6'772'547    Plotter_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 2'083'747    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 4'062'305    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 5'426'979    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
10'529'473    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc.pdf
            
14'256'168    VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
28'527'820    VisiCalc_ROMsrc.pdf



Paul Berger
 


Looks good to me and it seems it would save a considerable amount of space.

On 2017-01-24 9:05 AM, Martin Hepperle wrote:

Dear all,

in order to conserve space I have

  • cut the 4-up scans into single pages
  • OCRed the text again to make it searchable
  • saved the result withj reduced size

The net result is a reduction to about 37% of the orginal total size for the files listed below (the list shows the original file as well as its "single-pages" equivalent.

As an example I have temporarily uploaded VisiCalc ROM/VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf.

If everybody thinks this is useful replacement for Everetts original scans, I propose to upload the "new" files to replace the original files (to be deleted later). Otherwise I would remove my "single page" copy.

Greetings, Martin

Bytes         File Name
41'519'519    75ddddddROMsrc - single pages.pdf
93'608'826    75ddddddROMsrc.pdf
            
 7'685'402    75HW_SvcMan - reduced size.pdf
15'635'620    75HW_SvcMan.pdf
            
11'669'650    75InternalDocs - single pages.pdf
83'745'071    75InternalDocs.pdf
            
 7'675'300    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
17'052'248    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc.pdf

 5'271'555    BarcROMa - single pages.pdf
                        
 7'230'008    IO_ROM_SRC - single pages.pdf
15'467'774    IO_ROM_SRC.pdf
            
 8'666'180    Math_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
19'898'622    Math_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 3'070'716    Plotter_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 6'772'547    Plotter_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 2'083'747    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 4'062'305    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 5'426'979    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
10'529'473    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc.pdf
            
14'256'168    VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
28'527'820    VisiCalc_ROMsrc.pdf




 

I agree with Paul; the ‘single page’ versions are far more usable, OCR seems quite effective, and they save space. Makes sense to remove the original versions, but perhaps it’s best to announce when adding an improved version of a file, to also note that the original version will be removed in some fixed amount of time (e.g. specify original file will be removed on YYMMDD in 1 week?, 1 month?) to allow folks time to grab the original version should they want that for some reason. I guess either way this adds work for Everett since he is the only one that can purge files uploaded by someone else, even if he is 90% of the someone else.

 

Thanks for the effort to make these docs more usable Martin.

 

--bob

 

From: hp75@groups.io [mailto:hp75@groups.io] On Behalf Of Paul Berger
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 7:35 AM
To: hp75@groups.io
Subject: Re: [hp75] Storage and free/paid group

 


Looks good to me and it seems it would save a considerable amount of space.

On 2017-01-24 9:05 AM, Martin Hepperle wrote:

Dear all,

in order to conserve space I have

  • cut the 4-up scans into single pages
  • OCRed the text again to make it searchable
  • saved the result withj reduced size

The net result is a reduction to about 37% of the orginal total size for the files listed below (the list shows the original file as well as its "single-pages" equivalent.

As an example I have temporarily uploaded VisiCalc ROM/VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf.

If everybody thinks this is useful replacement for Everetts original scans, I propose to upload the "new" files to replace the original files (to be deleted later). Otherwise I would remove my "single page" copy.

Greetings, Martin

Bytes         File Name
41'519'519    75ddddddROMsrc - single pages.pdf
93'608'826    75ddddddROMsrc.pdf
            
 7'685'402    75HW_SvcMan - reduced size.pdf
15'635'620    75HW_SvcMan.pdf
            
11'669'650    75InternalDocs - single pages.pdf
83'745'071    75InternalDocs.pdf
            
 7'675'300    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
17'052'248    AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc.pdf

 5'271'555    BarcROMa - single pages.pdf
                        
 7'230'008    IO_ROM_SRC - single pages.pdf
15'467'774    IO_ROM_SRC.pdf
            
 8'666'180    Math_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
19'898'622    Math_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 3'070'716    Plotter_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 6'772'547    Plotter_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 2'083'747    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
 4'062'305    Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc.pdf
            
 5'426'979    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
10'529'473    Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc.pdf
            
14'256'168    VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf
28'527'820    VisiCalc_ROMsrc.pdf

 

 


 

Martin wrote...
in order to conserve space I have
cut the 4-up scans into single pagesOCRed the text again to make it
searchablesaved the result withj reduced size
The net result is a reduction to about 37% of the orginal total
size for the files listed below (the list shows the original file as
well as its "single-pages" equivalent.
As an example I have temporarily uploaded VisiCalc
ROM/VisiCalc_ROMsrc - single pages.pdf.
If everybody thinks this is useful replacement for Everetts
original scans, I propose to upload the "new" files to replace the
original files (to be deleted later). Otherwise I would remove my
"single page" copy.
Looks fine. Definitely not as clear, but readable. If others agree,
I'll delete the originals as you upload the single-page scans, as
the site is now at over 900 Mbytes, pushing hard on the 1 GB limit.

Everett

======================================================================
Everett Kaser Software Logic & Puzzle Games for computers
PO Box 403 http://www.kaser.com
Albany OR USA 97321-0117 Phone: 541-928-5259 8am-8pm PACIFIC TIME
======================================================================


Martin Hepperle
 

Hi, 

the files listed below could be removed withing XXX days to free storage space. There should always be a corresponding file with a " - single pages" trailer in the file name in the same folder.  Of course it is a good idea to keep these original scans as a high quality backup.

Martin

https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/00075-15001%20IO%20ROM/IO_ROM_SRC.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/00075-15001%20IO%20ROM/AprilAugust_and_Monitor_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/VisiCalc%20ROM/VisiCalc_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/82718A%20Pod/Pod_82718_HiC_MMASTER1_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/82718A%20Pod/Pod_82718_HiC_Diag_HICUP_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/Plotter%20ROM/Plotter_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/00075-15015%20Math%20ROM/Math_ROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Internals%20-%20ROMs,%20Hardware,%20Documentation/75InternalDocs.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Internals%20-%20ROMs,%20Hardware,%20Documentation/HP-75%20Internal%20ROM%20Source%20Listings/75ddddddROMsrc.pdf
https://groups.io/g/hp75/files/75%20Application%20%28plug-in%29%20ROMs%20and%20DEVICES/82725A%20Bar%20Code%20Reader/HP82725A_Barcode_ROM.pdf