Hi from a new member
Twisted Member
Hi all, I have finally retired and can now indulge myself in new interests. I let you guess what one of them might be. Could I indulge myself and buy a small lathe - yes but what would I learn from doing that?, so build it is. I look forward to picking the brains of fellow members and of course tinkering to improve the tools, It's furnace up first to followed by the lathe.
Steve |
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I believe they call that cheating! You are going to read the instructions first! ;)
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I was pretty sure I didn't have the stick-to-itivness to do that myself, so bought a 7x10 mini-lathe 35 years after I took my first class in machining near the end of my senior year of high school. Then had a great deal of trouble learning how to use it. Eventually SWMBO got tired of listening to me moan about it, and told me I should take another class. That was about 7 years ago. I've been attending very part-time ever since. I've only got about 3 or 4 more projects to go before I finish that class, now. Three days of class this coming week are it until the next calendar year and semester starts up in early January. I'll be doing some small projects there in support of the Unimat lathe I traded my 7x10 for a week or so ago. This past week I made new way bars for it from chromed & hardened linear guide rod. Fairly early in the class, I found out why I was having so much trouble with the 7x10. It was not because the thing was cheap junk, either. For what it costs, it's quite a fine little machine. Nope, the problem was me. I could not measure parts accurately, so I couldn't cut them to the correct sizes. There is a sense of touch you need to develop to get the correct measurements. It takes practice. I sat down one day with the 6" caliper they had us buy, and a set of gauge blocks, and measured them until I was getting the right numbers for both individual blocks, and stacks of blocks. It only took a few hours, too. If I were going to be building a Gingery lathe, now, I might actually be able to do it, but I think I'd make it more like a Unimat in the ways. They have two parallel 12mm rods for the bed, and two 8mm rods for the cross slide. Though I'd use much larger rods than the 12mm for the bed, though that might work well for the cross slide. OTH, following the book the first time through, so you learn all the skills you can learn from doing so might just be the way to go! I keep having to go back and fill in on stuff I'd have probably learned doing the Gingery books in order. Which is why it's cheating! ;) Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein) On Sunday, December 12, 2021, 06:53:56 PM CST, Twisted Member via groups.io <twistedmember@...> wrote:
Hi all, I have finally retired and can now indulge myself in new interests. I let you guess what one of them might be. Could I indulge myself and buy a small lathe - yes but what would I learn from doing that?, so build it is. I look forward to picking the brains of fellow members and of course tinkering to improve the tools, It's furnace up first to followed by the lathe. Steve |
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John Dammeyer
Hi Steve, Welcome to the busy world of being retired. I too built in the following order (and learned a lot) Gingery Power Hacksaw Gingery Slip Roll Gingery Gas Fired Foundry
I had a friend with a lathe drill through the spindle of my Sears 20" drill press and added a draw bar to the MT-3 tooling. Now I could, with an XY vise, fly cut castings and machine some of the things that otherwise required a lot of handwork.
I then build the Gingery lathe pretty well exactly as per spec before I starting thinking about making changes to improve it. There is a tendency for many to make too many changes and never finish.
After I made it up to the round belt power feed I diverged from the plans and took a side trip to design and build my Electronic Lead Screw so I wouldn't have to first built the mill/shaper to create book 6 parts to add gears. http://www.autoartisans.com/ELS/
Having said that there are a few things that might help improve yours. I don't remember if my photos are still on the forum site but I'll check. I created a much wider foot casting under the head stock. I would redo the long bed to have X bracing instead of cross bracing. The cross does nothing to prevent the bed from twisting. There are lots of other solutions for the bed.
The other major change I would suggest is to follow the lead of pretty well every other lathe out there and that's to make the main carriage wider than it is deep. A long time ago on this forum I posted a fairly long description of the various ratios that all lathes seem to follow. So if the bed way is 1/4"x3" wide CRS then make the carriage at least 4" and I think 4.5 to 5 is a better number. The downside is it changes your total carriage travel.
Anyway. Being able to follow a design plan, work through all the issues and make nice clean castings that machine well is the reward and totally worth it.
John Dammeyer
From: gingery-machines@groups.io [mailto:gingery-machines@groups.io] On Behalf Of Twisted Member via groups.io
Sent: December-12-21 3:04 PM To: gingery-machines@groups.io Subject: [gingery-machines] Hi from a new member
Hi all, I have finally retired and can now indulge myself in new interests. I let you guess what one of them might be. Could I indulge myself and buy a small lathe - yes but what would I learn from doing that?, so build it is. I look forward to picking the brains of fellow members and of course tinkering to improve the tools, It's furnace up first to followed by the lathe. |
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John Dammeyer
Not sure why your posting has so many question marks Bill.
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I have a small Unimat DB200. I wouldn't make a larger version like that. I found even with 1.25" solid rods for my CNC router that a very minor load consisting of X axis frame and router deflected 0.035" in the center. What was even more interesting is a friend ran some specialized software using the weight of the assembly and the length,diameter of the rods. His calculation said I'd have 0.035" deflection. Spooky. He then worked out what sort of I beam or frame I would require under the round bars to avoid that deflection. As yet I have yet to build the 5" high support truss for that and a Mech Eng friend sketched out the best truss frame. Again, look at commercial units, keeping in mind that sometimes the choices they make are on manufacturability and costs that aren't as important for a one of custom built. John Dammeyer -----Original Message----- |
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I can guess. I had the Brave Browser I use not blocking ads, and while doing that, it wouldn't let me attach the photo. When I turned the ad blocking off, I was able to add the photo, and some more text. What I added doesn't seem to have the question marks. It doesn't show in the copy of the email that you responded to, just in your response, though, so I'm not sure. It would probably be best if one of the moderators can delete those two emails, mine and your response to it. It isn't like I really added much to the discussion. Last time I talked to someone about doing a Unimat type ways setup, I suggested 3" bar stock. I know folks who've done fine work with a Unimat, and hope to be one of them soon, but it's not worth having that much crud embedded in a web page lots of folks use and isn't Unimat related. I was able to delete the copy from your response that I'm responding to, but it's still there in buried in the original. There are a couple of old books at archive.org that talk about the design of lathe beds. They'd probably explain much of what you've been talking about. I had a great deal of trouble with algebra & trig, so didn't manage to become an engineer. With a calculator, I can usually figure out how to enter a fairly simple formula's data and get an answer, but I'm not sure that math is within my reach. I just know you get more stiffness with greater diameter. Shorter bed would probably help, too. Other shapes might help a bit, too. I do know that any lathe droops a bit, and with the right setup you can measure how much droop there is. It doesn't need to be perfectly stiff, just adequately stiff. .035" might work for some things. A wood lathe, maybe? I am sure someone has that all figured out. It just ain't me. ;) I do know a bunch of folks who've built the Gingery lathe, and gotten good work out of it, including you. Depends on what you need, and what you want to do with it. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein) On Sunday, December 12, 2021, 08:00:50 PM CST, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote: Not sure why your posting has so many question marks Bill. I have a small Unimat DB200. I wouldn't make a larger version like that. I found even with 1.25" solid rods for my CNC router that a very minor load consisting of X axis frame and router deflected 0.035" in the center. What was even more interesting is a friend ran some specialized software using the weight of the assembly and the length,diameter of the rods. His calculation said I'd have 0.035" deflection. Spooky. He then worked out what sort of I beam or frame I would require under the round bars to avoid that deflection. As yet I have yet to build the 5" high support truss for that and a Mech Eng friend sketched out the best truss frame. Again, look at commercial units, keeping in mind that sometimes the choices they make are on manufacturability and costs that aren't as important for a one of custom built. John Dammeyer |
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Twisted Member
Hi John, the world of the retired is indeed busy.
The too many changes and failure to understand the consequences of those changes fully is a worry. As I said to Bill I don't really know what I'm doing so the potential for that is very high in my case. Initially, the main thing I wanted to do was improve the rigidity of the bed as that seemed to be a relatively easy task and then stick closely to the plan. The ELS as outlined on the autoartisan's website is interesting, I will look at it closely at some point. I will keep in mind your suggestions on the foot and width of the carriage. I haven't yet had a chance to check the archives yet but will get round to reading at least some of it. I did find on another website http://www.myheap.com/electronics/10-my-heap-articles/my-heap-projects/gingery-lathe.html Some suggestions that the author of the web page attributed to you along the lines of what you have suggested to me in your response. For some reason, I can't reproduce here. Thanks Steve |
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Twisted Member
Thanks for your welcome Bill and I do admit to cheating frequently - I tend to read the instructions especially when I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. Mind you I don't always follow the instructions but I will have read them.
You reminded me of an important point regarding precision measurement - the sense of touch. It's something that I had had 46 years ago in the machine shop at school but had long since forgotten that point ( all with all the other skills I learned). I will follow up on that idea of gauge blocks to practice on. Steve |
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John Dammeyer
Actually it was more like 2006 that I was learning AlibreCAD and started drawing the Gingery Parts. Didn't get very far. Other projects took over.
From: gingery-machines@groups.io [mailto:gingery-machines@groups.io] On Behalf Of Twisted Member via groups.io
Sent: December-12-21 9:48 PM To: gingery-machines@groups.io Subject: Re: [gingery-machines] Hi from a new member
Hi John, the world of the retired is indeed busy. |
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John Dammeyer
I've attached 1 MB photo of my lathe from back in 2008. (Gosh that's long ago). Notice the wider foot under the spindle. I think Dave G. wanted to keep things simple so he used one pattern for both ends. Mine has two tabs on the back to pivoting the belt and pulley system (never completed). I was just learning AlibreCAD at the time and didn't make any drawings of it. Probably still have the pattern somewhere that I can photograph.
John
From: gingery-machines@groups.io [mailto:gingery-machines@groups.io] On Behalf Of Twisted Member via groups.io
Sent: December-12-21 9:48 PM To: gingery-machines@groups.io Subject: Re: [gingery-machines] Hi from a new member
Hi John, the world of the retired is indeed busy. |
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Twisted Member
Thanks again John, from that picture alone I can see the longer foot plus I believe a wider bed( and possibly thicker steel) with 2 rows of screws holding it down. In addition, the pulley and belts and one stepper motor are also clearly visible. I am sure as I study it more details will become apparent. Overall you have done an excellent job on the installation of the switchgear and stop/start buttons plus of course the ELS. It's left me impressed.
Steve |
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John Dammeyer
Hi Steve, I forgot about the twin rows of screws. I did not like the idea of a single row down the center so I did change that. I did not change the thickness of the bed. It's the 3"x1/4" as specified in the book.
The reason for making the main carriage wider is to prevent square racking. What I found is that if you set the gibs nice and close that pushing or pulling on the carriage with the lead screw results in the carriage twisting effectively around the center of the square since it's 3"x3". If you change the width of the carriage to 4.5" there is less tendency to twist.
Look at any of the commercial lathes out there, especially with twin v bed you see the head stock and tail stock are on the center bed and the carriage on the outer. That lets it have an H shape that allows closer movement to the headstock and allows the tail stock to be closer to the carriage with less overhang.
Notice in the book that the half nut is way out to the right. You can see the original hole in the carriage faceplate on my lathe. That also creates a lever arm to try and twist the carriage longer than if it's on center of the rectangle of the carriage on the ways. And more twisting.
You can still see the original pulley on the left for the round sewing machine belt power feed. But once I had the South Bend Heavy 10L I was able to cut a custom ACME lead screw for the carriage. I use two steel jam nuts to take out play. And yes they should be bronze. But by then I had the South Bend….
Funny thing is I still use the Gingery for all sorts of things. As well as my DB200 depending on the size of what I need to do. And my South Bend, because it has a physical taper attachment I haven't felt the need to add power to the cross slide. So threading metric or turning/boring to depth is a bit more tedious but still way easier than totally manually.
For example. In the attached photo I had to turn 6 3D printed wheels to an exact size. I made an arbour and used the South Bend collets so I would be able remove and install the arbour and still have the outside and inner edge concentric. Two small bearings went in on either side.
If I was only doing it once or wanted to dial in using my Gingery 4 jaw then I'd have done it there. But it was only one pass. Once done I'd move the X out a bit to clear and just JOG to the right at full speed to get the tool out of the way, measure or just remove and place the next one. Then press START and the tool would move back to the BEGIN position. I'd move the X back to the zero spot on the dial and press START and the next wheel would be cut to size.
All this is possible with the Gingery and plastic doesn't deflect anything. I also do wood patterns like tapered pieces for casting. So handy. Chuck a dowel into the 3 Jaw. Set the ELS up for taper turning and cut the taper. Part off at the right length and glue to the pattern.
And none of this would be within my abilities had I not built the Gingery from scratch. I still intend on making the shaper. Just for fun. Not sure where it will fit in the shop but Rick Sparber has an excellent series of PDFs on making it with improvements.
John Dammeyer
o:gingery-machines@groups.io] On Behalf Of Twisted Member via groups.io
Thanks again John, from that picture alone I can see the longer foot plus I believe a wider bed( and possibly thicker steel) with 2 rows of screws holding it down. In addition, the pulley and belts and one stepper motor are also clearly visible. I am sure as I study it more details will become apparent. Overall you have done an excellent job on the installation of the switchgear and stop/start buttons plus of course the ELS. It's left me impressed. |
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Twisted Member
Bill,
I didn't notice it the first time partly due to my unfamiliarity with groups.io but I just saw the picture of the Unit with the rods you mentioned, I could picture it in my mind but a real picture is even better Thanks Steve |
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Twisted Member
Thanks, John for the additional pictures and the explanations that covered the various modifications you made and why. I had to find my copy of the lathe book just to help understand some of the points. I am sure I will be back with more questions in the future so you will hear from me again. I should at least make a start and am in the process of trying to locate the supplies I need to make the charcoal furnace, fire clay is not common in my area but I think some bentonite clay and some suitable sand can be found.
Hopefully, everyone in the forum has a great Christmas and New Year - summer is a bit late in arriving in my part of the world but it hit 32C yesterday and the forecast is for t a 31C followed by a 34C over the weekend Steve |
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Terry Coombs
On 12/15/2021 2:45 AM, Twisted Member
Are you in Australia ? Several years ago a complete set of the Gingery books were sent south , IIRC it was thru the (now defunct?) Casting Hobby email list ... though it might have been thru this group . I don't remember the guy's name now , but we had some great conversation in the bar of the hotel (in Memphis Tennessee) where he was staying when I handed them off to him . I sometimes wonder if they got passed around and shared . The intent was to get them to people who wanted them without paying outrageous mailing/shipping costs . I hope it worked out well . -- Snag |
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Twisted Member
Correct Australia it is. The books probably got passed around or possibly donated to a 'Model Engineering/railway " group or something similar. They sometimes run member libraries so lots of people get to see them. Exchange rates and postal costs are often the killer getting books to Australia. It is not uncommon for me when I order second-hand books from used book shops to pay 3-7 times the cost of the book on postage. Such is life when you live at the top of the world (Southern Hemisphere).
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