Second Source


paul.currell@...
 

Your help please, ladies and gentlemen, on how to add a second source for a Census (probably applies to other facts baptisms etc). I am in the process of rebuilding my family history using FH v7 and source based data entry.
 
Using source templates and the data entry assistant I have added a source and citation for the 1891 Census from the FamilySearch website and cited Familysearch as the repository. I have now discovered the household listed on the Freecen website and would like to add that as a source as well.
 
When I add the new source it adds a duplicate fact for the persons occupation, is there a way to stop FH doing this? And if not, is there a work round or best practice? I realise that I could delete the duplicate fact but that could be a lot of deletions with a large household. Hopefully I will join one of the subscription websites and would wish to add that as a source creating yet more duplications.

Hope I have explained myself OK.
Cheers
Paul
 


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

Am I right in that both FamilySearch and FreeCen only provide transcriptions of the census, and you’re not working with an actual census image?

 

If you were working with a census image, I would say that – no matter where you get the image from – you should only record the image as a single source. Yes, the legibility might differ between repositories (because their images may have been produced independently) but the root source (“the source of the source”) is the same.  If you wanted to record multiple repositories for the same source, I’d include that information in the Notes for the Source, rather than create a new source for each repository/online site.  That way, you avoid having the Text from Source and Image (which should be the same) replicated in reports etc. but preserve the information for your own benefit of the places each census is accessible. Creating multiple sources for the same census page would be a bit like creating a source for a Birth Certificate you got from your mother, and another Source for the same Birth Certificate when your Auntie Maisie emailed you a copy...

 

Transcriptions are a little different, as they may well show different information. They shouldn’t, but you’re dependent on the skill of the transcriber and the extent of the transcription. If the two sources are effectively identical, I’d treat them like images above. If they’re very different, you might choose to treat them as different sources, or you could treat them as a single source, and record the differences in the Notes for the Source.

 

The current Census (UK) DEA isn’t designed for entering multiple copies of the same source, but if that’s what you decide to do for the transcriptions you’re dealing with (which I hope will be not frequently), I suggest you sort the result sets that’s produced by the Item Type column to bring all the Occupations together and then delete them there. You’ll probably want to do the same for Residences as well?

 

If and when you join one of the subscription sites and get access to images, I’d suggest updating a relevant source you created using a Transcription rather than creating yet another new source. You might have to do a bit of manual data entry (using Automatic Source Citation would probably be easiest) if the image shows you things the transcription doesn’t, but that’s hopefully going to be rare. I would not re-run the DEA.

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of paul.currell@...
Sent: 16 November 2021 22:22
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: [family-historian] Second Source

 

Your help please, ladies and gentlemen, on how to add a second source for a Census (probably applies to other facts baptisms etc). I am in the process of rebuilding my family history using FH v7 and source based data entry.

 

Using source templates and the data entry assistant I have added a source and citation for the 1891 Census from the FamilySearch website and cited Familysearch as the repository. I have now discovered the household listed on the Freecen website and would like to add that as a source as well.

 

When I add the new source it adds a duplicate fact for the persons occupation, is there a way to stop FH doing this? And if not, is there a work round or best practice? I realise that I could delete the duplicate fact but that could be a lot of deletions with a large household. Hopefully I will join one of the subscription websites and would wish to add that as a source creating yet more duplications.


Hope I have explained myself OK.
Cheers

Paul


Mike Tate
 

Hi Paul,

For source records like the UK Census, the copies on different websites are not really independent sources.

They are all derived from the same General Records Office master copy.

Some would argue that the Repository is not FamilySearch or FreeCen but the GRO.

It might be better to change the Repository Name to GRO and enter the Web Site addresses for the online URL where you found the records.

Repository records allow up to three URL to be entered, so that would handle FamilySearch, FreeCen, and one other.

If necessary you could add multiple images from each website to the Source record.

Using that technique means that you only update one or two FH records and leave the Facts and Citations alone.

 

I presume you are using Ancestral Sources (AS) to capture the Census records and it is AS that is duplicating the Facts.

AS is primarily designed to capture one Source per Fact.

Maybe the author Nick Walker would consider an upgrade that allowed multiple Sources.

 

Mike Tate

 


Trevor Rix
 

There are a huge quantity of census images at FamilySearch. For example https://www.familysearch.org/records/images/image-details?page=1&place=3041537&rmsId=TH-7771-101540-9656-47&imageIndex=6&singleView=true


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 
Edited

Mike, you might want to re-read the original email... Paul explicitly says he’s using a DEA, and that he’s using two sites that only provide transcriptions not images for the 1891 census.

 

Otherwise, your advice on handling census sources is close to mine.  You’ve added a detail about 3 URLS per Repository, but mistakenly said the ‘source of the source’ lives at the GRO, whereas it is now at TNA (as most repositories acknowledge).  And I believe that adding 3 different URLs to a single repository (when they’re actually URLS for 3 different websites) is likely to lead to confusion is Paul ever shares his Gedcom; Note would allow him to be much clearer about what he is recording.

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Tate
Sent: 17 November 2021 10:43
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Second Source

 

Hi Paul,

For source records like the UK Census, the copies on different websites are not really independent sources.

They are all derived from the same General Records Office master copy.

Some would argue that the Repository is not FamilySearch or FreeCen but the GRO.

It might be better to change the Repository Name to GRO and enter the Web Site addresses for the online URL where you found the records.

Repository records allow up to three URL to be entered, so that would handle FamilySearch, FreeCen, and one other.

If necessary you could add multiple images from each website to the Source record.

Using that technique means that you only update one or two FH records and leave the Facts and Citations alone.

 

I presume you are using Ancestral Sources (AS) to capture the Census records and it is AS that is duplicating the Facts.

AS is primarily designed to capture one Source per Fact.

Maybe the author Nick Walker would consider an upgrade that allowed multiple Sources.

 

_._,_._,_


Barbara Zanzig
 

FamilySearch has actual images.

I agree that you want to record as much as you can against a single source ("THE census page", wherever found), rather than making a new source for the same information. I think you have a source of a source, or a second repository, not a second citeable source.

I have a huge maintenance problem because I recorded citations for films at the Family History Library that are now available electronically on Ancestry, plus have found things I didn't find on film. Do I update my source to the Ancestry database? Do I cite each baptism, etc. twice? Do I combine them? Is one or the other good enough? Think through questions like that before you decide.


colevalleygirl@colevalleygirl.co.uk
 

[I sent this at 1100 UK time but it hasn't appeared]

For many censuses, including 1891 which is the census Paul referred to, FamilySearch only have a transcription and state:

 

To view these images do one of the following:

· Access the site at a family history center.

· Access the site at an affiliate library.

· You may be able to view this image by visiting one of our partner's sites or the legal record custodian (fees may apply).


John Hanson
 

To be pedantic the census material is not the responsibility of the GRO

 

All census material up to 1921 is with the National Archives

1801 to 1851 are all in class HO which is Home Office
1861-1921 are all in class RG which is Registrar General

 

Regards
John Hanson - researching the Halstead/Holstead/Alstead names
Researcher, the Halsted Trust - https://www.halsted.org.uk
Research website - https://www.halstedresearch.org.uk

 

 

 

From: family-historian@groups.io <family-historian@groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Tate
Sent: 17 November 2021 10:43
To: family-historian@groups.io
Subject: Re: [family-historian] Second Source

 

Hi Paul,

For source records like the UK Census, the copies on different websites are not really independent sources.

They are all derived from the same General Records Office master copy.

Some would argue that the Repository is not FamilySearch or FreeCen but the GRO.

It might be better to change the Repository Name to GRO and enter the Web Site addresses for the online URL where you found the records.

Repository records allow up to three URL to be entered, so that would handle FamilySearch, FreeCen, and one other.

If necessary you could add multiple images from each website to the Source record.

Using that technique means that you only update one or two FH records and leave the Facts and Citations alone.

 

I presume you are using Ancestral Sources (AS) to capture the Census records and it is AS that is duplicating the Facts.

AS is primarily designed to capture one Source per Fact.

Maybe the author Nick Walker would consider an upgrade that allowed multiple Sources.

 

Mike Tate

 


Jan Murphy
 

On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:00 AM Barbara Zanzig <bzanzig@...> wrote:
 
I have a huge maintenance problem because I recorded citations for films at the Family History Library that are now available electronically on Ancestry, plus have found things I didn't find on film. Do I update my source to the Ancestry database? Do I cite each baptism, etc. twice? Do I combine them? Is one or the other good enough? Think through questions like that before you decide.

Good advice! 

The discussion "Multiple Sources and Records" at Elizabeth Shown Mills' Evidence Explained website may be of interest. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/multiple-sources-and-records 

I know a lot of people dislike Evidence Explained but I think Mills is correct here:  "The bottom line is to cite what you use."  

Downthread she talks about putting notes about multiple sources for the source in working notes.  I do think it is useful to keep a record of multiple access points in case the preferred "source of source" is temporarily unavailable and you have to look at one of the other sites. 

Jan Murphy
Moderator Pro Tempore


paul.currell@...
 

My apologies for not replying earlier but thank you all for your replies and help. I have now created a new project called Test&Try with just a single family in it. I am trying your suggestions to see which suits best.
CheersPaul